How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[Divine Wind]

i've read the Bible through and through 3 times, but to tell you the truth, I never really could get past the part about the talking snake....

I find stories of creation fascinating insights into various cultures.

The Garden of Eden story can be taken many ways. The one I find most interesting is how eating from "the Tree of Knowledge" is seen as original sin.

 

[Divine Wind]

If you don't want 3rd grade stories quit making 3rd grade arguments.

Please quote one third grade argument I've made.

 

[jillian]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

what is "ordered" about it?

What ISN'T ordered about it? Everything that happens has a cause. Everything that happens is the result of matter and energy obeying the universal physical constants. Seems pretty ordered to me.

war? pestilence? natural disasters? that's "ordered?"

see here:
What is Chaos Theory? – Fractal Foundation

Everything that happens is the result of matter and energy obeying the natural laws. What part of that don't you understand? Something may seem chaotic, but it is not. It is the result of matter and energy behaving in a predictable manner.

all of which has zero to do with a "creator"

 

[jillian]

i've read the Bible through and through 3 times, but to tell you the truth, I never really could get past the part about the talking snake....

I find stories of creation fascinating insights into various cultures.

The Garden of Eden story can be taken many ways. The one I find most interesting is how eating from "the Tree of Knowledge" is seen as original sin.

those stories were intended to be allegorical, at least insofar as the descendants of their original recipients see it. And as allegory, they work beautifully. It's trying to view them as literal assertions that I find the heavy lift. in fact, I think a literal view of creation or any other bible story is error.

 

[Votto]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

It's Bush's fault.

 

[Votto]

If it was orderly we'd know what to expect, but Nooooooooooooooooo! there are radicals in the equation...

No, the radicals are in the White House

 

[Lutroo]

Bottom line. No one can prove through science why we are here, or how it happened. You atheists always cling to science, which has no answers. It really doesn't. Science is nothing more than observation of the physical universe. Observations made by fallible humans. If you want to put your faith in that, then go right ahead. I have God's word, which has never been proven to be in error about anything it says. You all claim the opposite, but every Biblical contradiction I've seen is the result of your own ignorance, as well as a failure to use Biblical, cultural and historical context when interpreting it. You think you are so smart...that you have all the answers. Keep thinking that. Be content in your false sense of superiority. It will do you little good when you meet your Creator and He asks you to give an account of your life. The evidence for God is all around you, but your sinful pride will not allow you to admit the truth. You want to be your own gods. Fair enough. There will be many false gods in hell, to keep you company.

 

[sealybobo]

If you don't want 3rd grade stories quit making 3rd grade arguments.

Please quote one third grade argument I've made.

Please read through these before you make one more bad argument

Why there is no god

This site lists the 46 reasons you believe there is a god and it explains why you are wrong all 46 times.

This way you won't keep making the same bad arguments everyone else did.

 

[Mudda]

What would a 'Creator' so capable want with such a universe?

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

How do you know that god has no beginning? Because that's the only way your theory works?

 

[Vandalshandle]

Bottom line. No one can prove through science why we are here, or how it happened. You atheists always cling to science, which has no answers. It really doesn't. Science is nothing more than observation of the physical universe. Observations made by fallible humans. If you want to put your faith in that, then go right ahead. I have God's word, which has never been proven to be in error about anything it says. You all claim the opposite, but every Biblical contradiction I've seen is the result of your own ignorance, as well as a failure to use Biblical, cultural and historical context when interpreting it. You think you are so smart...that you have all the answers. Keep thinking that. Be content in your false sense of superiority. It will do you little good when you meet your Creator and He asks you to give an account of your life. The evidence for God is all around you, but your sinful pride will not allow you to admit the truth. You want to be your own gods. Fair enough. There will be many false gods in hell, to keep you company.

Well, all I can say is that I don't want to spend eternity with Jerry Falwell, so I guess it works for me....

 

[Mudda]

Bottom line. No one can prove through science why we are here, or how it happened. You atheists always cling to science, which has no answers. It really doesn't. Science is nothing more than observation of the physical universe. Observations made by fallible humans. If you want to put your faith in that, then go right ahead. I have God's word, which has never been proven to be in error about anything it says. You all claim the opposite, but every Biblical contradiction I've seen is the result of your own ignorance, as well as a failure to use Biblical, cultural and historical context when interpreting it. You think you are so smart...that you have all the answers. Keep thinking that. Be content in your false sense of superiority. It will do you little good when you meet your Creator and He asks you to give an account of your life. The evidence for God is all around you, but your sinful pride will not allow you to admit the truth. You want to be your own gods. Fair enough. There will be many false gods in hell, to keep you company.

You said that "God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is". But now you're saying that you "have God's word". So if you don't know what god is, how can you know that you have his word? Please try to be logical.

 

[Mudda]

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

You quote science in your OP yet ignore that matter cannot be created or destroyed..a basic scientific principle

Conservation of mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man cannot create or destroy matter or energy. Who says that God couldn't do it? And you are stuck with the question of why matter and energy exist in the first place. It was either created at some point, or it has always existed. Science cannot explain either scenario.

So you stick to science in regards to the order of the universe but it gets put away when you talk about your God

Not at all. If you read a little history, you would understand that the scientific method had it's origin in the belief that there is a Creator, and that there are laws that govern all of existence. There is no conflict between science and God. After all, God created the natural laws. Nice try though.

But the bible says that the world was made in 6 days. Science says otherwise. Please explain.

 

[Mudda]

So you stick to science in regards to the order of the universe but it gets put away when you talk about your God

I think a lot of that depends upon what a person means by "God". To me it's a word to describe the power behind the creation of the Universe which burst into existence from a singularity about 13.77B years ago and when all the natural, unchanging laws of the Natural Universe originated.

If someone says the Universe is only 6000 years old, was created in 7 days and that Cain had sex with Eve (no other women around, amirite?) then that does conflict with what our knowledge of Creation tells us.

??? Where did Cain having sex with Eve come from? Are you crazy?

God kicked Adam out of Eden for having sex with the woman. Sounds pretty gay to me.

 

[sealybobo]

Bottom line. No one can prove through science why we are here, or how it happened. You atheists always cling to science, which has no answers. It really doesn't. Science is nothing more than observation of the physical universe. Observations made by fallible humans. If you want to put your faith in that, then go right ahead. I have God's word, which has never been proven to be in error about anything it says. You all claim the opposite, but every Biblical contradiction I've seen is the result of your own ignorance, as well as a failure to use Biblical, cultural and historical context when interpreting it. You think you are so smart...that you have all the answers. Keep thinking that. Be content in your false sense of superiority. It will do you little good when you meet your Creator and He asks you to give an account of your life. The evidence for God is all around you, but your sinful pride will not allow you to admit the truth. You want to be your own gods. Fair enough. There will be many false gods in hell, to keep you company.

Is that what you are looking for? Comforting answers regardless of if they are true or not?

Religion was made by fallible humans. You seem to want to ignore that fact.

The Old Testament makes sense to you? Are you kidding? Its perfect? Because if the old testament is bullshit, so is the new. The new is just better written so it isn't as obviously written by susperstitious primitive men. To me it is obvous still but I'll give you it is a much better story than the old testament.

 

[there4eyeM]

The universe isn't 'doing' anything, it merely is. It can just as easily be thought that all exists so that we can experience it. As if we came out of matter so that matter could see what it looked like, so it could feel. Consciousness may have called all this forth.
How's that sound? Not so different and the same.

 

[sealybobo]

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

You quote science in your OP yet ignore that matter cannot be created or destroyed..a basic scientific principle

Conservation of mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man cannot create or destroy matter or energy. Who says that God couldn't do it? And you are stuck with the question of why matter and energy exist in the first place. It was either created at some point, or it has always existed. Science cannot explain either scenario.

So you stick to science in regards to the order of the universe but it gets put away when you talk about your God

Not at all. If you read a little history, you would understand that the scientific method had it's origin in the belief that there is a Creator, and that there are laws that govern all of existence. There is no conflict between science and God. After all, God created the natural laws. Nice try though.

But the bible says that the world was made in 6 days. Science says otherwise. Please explain.

1 day to god is not one day to man. LOL They can explain anything away because the bible says everything. I can probably find where it says 1000 days to us is a blink of an eye for god.

 

[Lutroo]

If you don't want 3rd grade stories quit making 3rd grade arguments.

Please quote one third grade argument I've made.

Please read through these before you make one more bad argument

Why there is no god

This site lists the 46 reasons you believe there is a god and it explains why you are wrong all 46 times.

This way you won't keep making the same bad arguments everyone else did.

I read it. I'm still laughing.

 

[Divine Wind]

The universe isn't 'doing' anything, it merely is. It can just as easily be thought that all exists so that we can experience it. As if we came out of matter so that matter could see what it looked like, so it could feel. Consciousness may have called all this forth.
How's that sound? Not so different and the same.

Solipsism has ventured this theory. You could really be strapped to a bed and pumped full of barbiturates or in a coma.

 

[Lutroo]

Bottom line. No one can prove through science why we are here, or how it happened. You atheists always cling to science, which has no answers. It really doesn't. Science is nothing more than observation of the physical universe. Observations made by fallible humans. If you want to put your faith in that, then go right ahead. I have God's word, which has never been proven to be in error about anything it says. You all claim the opposite, but every Biblical contradiction I've seen is the result of your own ignorance, as well as a failure to use Biblical, cultural and historical context when interpreting it. You think you are so smart...that you have all the answers. Keep thinking that. Be content in your false sense of superiority. It will do you little good when you meet your Creator and He asks you to give an account of your life. The evidence for God is all around you, but your sinful pride will not allow you to admit the truth. You want to be your own gods. Fair enough. There will be many false gods in hell, to keep you company.

You said that "God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is". But now you're saying that you "have God's word". So if you don't know what god is, how can you know that you have his word? Please try to be logical.

Prophecy. That's how I know.

 

[Divine Wind]

If you don't want 3rd grade stories quit making 3rd grade arguments.

Please quote one third grade argument I've made.

Please read through these before you make one more bad argument

Why there is no god

This site lists the 46 reasons you believe there is a god and it explains why you are wrong all 46 times.

This way you won't keep making the same bad arguments everyone else did.

Nice dodge and false accusation. Now please give evidence to your accusation that I've presented "3rd grade arguments".