How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[Lutroo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

what is "ordered" about it?

What ISN'T ordered about it? Everything that happens has a cause. Everything that happens is the result of matter and energy obeying the universal physical constants. Seems pretty ordered to me.

 

[Lutroo]

What would a 'Creator' so capable want with such a universe?

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

You quote science in your OP yet ignore that matter cannot be created or destroyed..a basic scientific principle

Conservation of mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man cannot create or destroy matter or energy. Who says that God couldn't do it? And you are stuck with the question of why matter and energy exist in the first place. It was either created at some point, or it has always existed. Science cannot explain either scenario.

 

[Foxfyre]

Who ever said the universe was ordered?

It's a pretty chaotic place

Yet it follows rules. Ergo, not chaotic, but ordered. Just because we don't understand all the rules or can't comprehend the entire pattern doesn't mean they aren't there.

This is truth. The anti-religionists insist there is no God because they can't understand everything: that which they can't understand or explain is just the way it is. The radical or chaos that seems to have no means to predict and no explanation is their proof that there is no God created order to the universe. And there is sickness and imperfection in the world. It is all by chance, a cosmic accident. It just all happened.

To the person who is open to the concept of God and creation and/or intelligent design:

1) That which we cannot explain does not mean there is no explanation. We are not so arrogant to believe we already have all the science there is to have or that we know all there is to know.

2. The radical or chaos may only appear that way to us while it makes complete sense to God who is a lot smarter than we are.

3. Perhaps the world was once perfect in every respect for us human beings as was suggested in the metaphor/allegory of the Garden of Eden story in the Bible. But because we were given free will so that we could actually live and love and appreciate the Creation and the Creator, we also had the capacity to sin; i.e. spoil the perfect that was. So it is by our own doing over 200,000 years that we have created our own imperfect existence.

 

[rightwinger]

What would a 'Creator' so capable want with such a universe?

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

You quote science in your OP yet ignore that matter cannot be created or destroyed..a basic scientific principle

Conservation of mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man cannot create or destroy matter or energy. Who says that God couldn't do it? And you are stuck with the question of why matter and energy exist in the first place. It was either created at some point, or it has always existed. Science cannot explain either scenario.

So you stick to science in regards to the order of the universe but it gets put away when you talk about your God

 

[jillian]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

what is "ordered" about it?

What ISN'T ordered about it? Everything that happens has a cause. Everything that happens is the result of matter and energy obeying the universal physical constants. Seems pretty ordered to me.

war? pestilence? natural disasters? that's "ordered?"

see here:
What is Chaos Theory? – Fractal Foundation

 

[Lutroo]

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

You quote science in your OP yet ignore that matter cannot be created or destroyed..a basic scientific principle

Conservation of mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man cannot create or destroy matter or energy. Who says that God couldn't do it? And you are stuck with the question of why matter and energy exist in the first place. It was either created at some point, or it has always existed. Science cannot explain either scenario.

So you stick to science in regards to the order of the universe but it gets put away when you talk about your God

Not at all. If you read a little history, you would understand that the scientific method had it's origin in the belief that there is a Creator, and that there are laws that govern all of existence. There is no conflict between science and God. After all, God created the natural laws. Nice try though.

 

[Lutroo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

what is "ordered" about it?

What ISN'T ordered about it? Everything that happens has a cause. Everything that happens is the result of matter and energy obeying the universal physical constants. Seems pretty ordered to me.

war? pestilence? natural disasters? that's "ordered?"

see here:
What is Chaos Theory? – Fractal Foundation

Everything that happens is the result of matter and energy obeying the natural laws. What part of that don't you understand? Something may seem chaotic, but it is not. It is the result of matter and energy behaving in a predictable manner.

 

[Divine Wind]

So you stick to science in regards to the order of the universe but it gets put away when you talk about your God

I think a lot of that depends upon what a person means by "God". To me it's a word to describe the power behind the creation of the Universe which burst into existence from a singularity about 13.77B years ago and when all the natural, unchanging laws of the Natural Universe originated.

If someone says the Universe is only 6000 years old, was created in 7 days and that Cain had sex with Eve (no other women around, amirite?) then that does conflict with what our knowledge of Creation tells us.

 

[Lutroo]

So you stick to science in regards to the order of the universe but it gets put away when you talk about your God

I think a lot of that depends upon what a person means by "God". To me it's a word to describe the power behind the creation of the Universe which burst into existence from a singularity about 13.77B years ago and when all the natural, unchanging laws of the Natural Universe originated.

If someone says the Universe is only 6000 years old, was created in 7 days and that Cain had sex with Eve (no other women around, amirite?) then that does conflict with what our knowledge of Creation tells us.

??? Where did Cain having sex with Eve come from? Are you crazy?

 

[sealybobo]

What would a 'Creator' so capable want with such a universe?

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

Because there are so many more possibilities you haven't even considered. You are correct it is hard to wrap your brain around this, but there was time and space before our universe was created. Think of us as one bubble in a lava lamp

Your universe is just one of a google of universes in an infinite cosmos. You seem to be putting god and/or the cosmos in a box my friend. God isn't eternal and it isn't GOD that has no beginning and no end. The cosmos do.

You can not disagree because even if there is a god and even if he did live forever, he had to live somewhere. And if there is a god, which there probably is not, but if there is, he is a lot older than 13.5 billion years old, am I right?

What created that one little bubble in the bottom right of that lava lamp? To the things that live in that bubble, they can not see the other bubbles, just like you can not see other universes. Not yet anyways.

 

[Divine Wind]

war? pestilence? natural disasters? that's "ordered?"

War is a creation of man. Pestilence is a natural part of the evolution of life. Natural disasters all follow physical laws of the universe and, given enough information, are predictable. Isn't Global Warming part of our predictions regardless if it is all natural or supplemented by the acts of mankind? Earthquakes? Volcanoes? Impact events?

 

[Divine Wind]

So you stick to science in regards to the order of the universe but it gets put away when you talk about your God

I think a lot of that depends upon what a person means by "God". To me it's a word to describe the power behind the creation of the Universe which burst into existence from a singularity about 13.77B years ago and when all the natural, unchanging laws of the Natural Universe originated.

If someone says the Universe is only 6000 years old, was created in 7 days and that Cain had sex with Eve (no other women around, amirite?) then that does conflict with what our knowledge of Creation tells us.

??? Where did Cain having sex with Eve come from? Are you crazy?

Young Earth Creationists don't talk about it, but it's the logical conclusion....unless you think Cain was fucking his sisters?

 

[sealybobo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

Would a perfect creator create a dope like you?

You need to watch The Cosmos. Those series explain why/ how you are wrong or why you aren't necessarily right

I don't watch fairy tales. I have never seen a scientific explanation for why we're here. Neither have you.

In the Cosmos they explain that the correct answer then is WE DON"T KNOW. It isn't "must be god", which is what you are claiming.

Are you a boss follower?

 

[sealybobo]

God created polio and smallpox for a reason. It was all part of god's plan. However, we perceived both of these diseases as an error on his part, and corrected them. This pissed off god, so he created AIDS and ebola. We have started making progress on that, so he created a new mosquito spreading disease that causes birth defects. Now, there are those who would say that god never makes mistakes that we have to correct, so i am assuming that he did these things intentionally. Therefore, I can only wish that he would mellow out a little.

God must be really really angry with Texas.

Why do you say that?

All the floods and military personal getting swept away. Every time something bad happens in liberal parts of the country conservatives say god is angry with us.

 

[Divine Wind]

...
Your universe is just one of a google of universes in an infinite cosmos. You seem to be putting god and/or the cosmos in a box my friend. God isn't eternal and it isn't GOD that has no beginning and no end. The cosmos do. ...

Where is your universe located in relatin to ours?

While I think the multiverse theory is both interesting and very likely, there is zero evidence it is true.

You are free to believe in a power outside the universe or not, but likewise there isn't any direct evidence one way or another. Hence, why it is a matter of faith.

 

[Foxfyre]

To me 'natural law' is only our explanation for the consistency we see in what we can know of the universe. We can only assume that we don't know what 'natural law' controls the anomalies.

But to go back to the concept of the OP, where did such 'natural law' originate? It doesn't satisfy me to think it is all by happenchance or that it just is the way it is.

I suspect we humans are still in the age of infancy when it comes to all cosmic knowledge of the universe. We know only a teensy fraction of what there is to know. In our arrogance or desire to control our own existence, it is easy to say such things as 'settled science' or the mathematical and scientific laws we know to exist are absolute.

I personally am not so certain. I prefer to think there is still an infinity of science and knowledge to know. So I think even had I not experienced the living God and thus know He exists, I would be open to the possibility.

I think only the insecure are so determined to demand that there is no supernatural, no existence beyond what we ourselves can prove.

 

[Lutroo]

What would a 'Creator' so capable want with such a universe?

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

Because there are so many more possibilities you haven't even considered. You are correct it is hard to wrap your brain around this, but there was time and space before our universe was created. Think of us as one bubble in a lava lamp

Your universe is just one of a google of universes in an infinite cosmos. You seem to be putting god and/or the cosmos in a box my friend. God isn't eternal and it isn't GOD that has no beginning and no end. The cosmos do.

You can not disagree because even if there is a god and even if he did live forever, he had to live somewhere. And if there is a god, which there probably is not, but if there is, he is a lot older than 13.5 billion years old, am I right?

What created that one little bubble in the bottom right of that lava lamp? To the things that live in that bubble, they can not see the other bubbles, just like you can not see other universes. Not yet anyways.

Poppycock! There is absolutely no evidence of other universes. Also, have you ever heard of the LAW of cause and effect? Everything that happens is the result of something causing it to happen. We live in a single universe. It had a beginning. Something caused it to exist. Since you cannot have a infinite regression of causes, there had to be a primal cause that was itself uncaused. The only definition that fits that primal cause is God.

 

[sealybobo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

what is "ordered" about it?

What ISN'T ordered about it? Everything that happens has a cause. Everything that happens is the result of matter and energy obeying the universal physical constants. Seems pretty ordered to me.

Does this world seem meant for us? For now it is but wait. And when we are gone, and another creature rules just like we did and dinosaurs and trilobites, will they think a god made this all for them?

“Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’ This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be all right, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise.”– Douglas Adams

 

[there4eyeM]

What is happening is that, with the discoveries of modern science (specifically quantum physics), we are confronted by realities for which we have no vocabulary. The relative world we evolved in and created language in has no parallels from which to draw. We cannot, for example, hear that the universe started at 0 some time in the past without automatically asking what preceded. Further, we cannot accept the concept that nothing preceded. We are caught in linguistics.

 

[sealybobo]

What would a 'Creator' so capable want with such a universe?

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

Because there are so many more possibilities you haven't even considered. You are correct it is hard to wrap your brain around this, but there was time and space before our universe was created. Think of us as one bubble in a lava lamp

Your universe is just one of a google of universes in an infinite cosmos. You seem to be putting god and/or the cosmos in a box my friend. God isn't eternal and it isn't GOD that has no beginning and no end. The cosmos do.

You can not disagree because even if there is a god and even if he did live forever, he had to live somewhere. And if there is a god, which there probably is not, but if there is, he is a lot older than 13.5 billion years old, am I right?

What created that one little bubble in the bottom right of that lava lamp? To the things that live in that bubble, they can not see the other bubbles, just like you can not see other universes. Not yet anyways.

Poppycock! There is absolutely no evidence of other universes. Also, have you ever heard of the LAW of cause and effect? Everything that happens is the result of something causing it to happen. We live in a single universe. It had a beginning. Something caused it to exist. Since you cannot have a infinite regression of causes, there had to be a primal cause that was itself uncaused. The only definition that fits that primal cause is God.

See how close minded you are to other possibilities? When the fact is, there is no evidence for your god either.

Yes, our universe might have been caused because another one collapsed. Ever hear of black holes? Do you know what's on the other side?

What caused god? If god can be eternal and causeless, why can't the cosmos?

Stop making bad arguments
God created/caused the universe.
The First Cause Argument, or Cosmological Argument [2], is internally contradictoryand raises the following questions: Who or what created god?, Why should a hypothetical ‘cause’ have any of the common attributes of a god?, Why is the ‘cause’ a specific god?, Why can’t the universe be causeless too? and, most importantly, Why rule out all other possible explanations?

It is fundamentally a ‘god of the gaps’ approach. Our current lack of understanding concerning the Universe’s origins does not automatically mean ‘god’ holds any explanatory value. Metaphysical and theistic speculation are not immediately justified or correct simply because we lack a comprehensive scientific model. Uncertainty is the most valid position and one can honestly say “We just don’t know yet”.

The argument ignores the fact that our everyday understanding of causality has been arrived at via a posteriori inductive reasoning – which means it might not apply to everything. Time, for instance, appears to have begun with the Big Bang, so there might not have been any ’cause’ for the Universe to be an ‘effect’ of since there was probablyno time for a ’cause’ to exist in. Applying concepts like time and causality to the Big Bang might be comparable to asking “What is north of the North Pole?” – ultimately nonsensical and incoherent. Furthermore, even if causality could be established it would not immediately imply the existence of a god, much less any particular one, as the properties and nature of the ’cause’ could forever remain a mystery or benaturalistic.

In fact, something can come from nothing and we are able to observe it in the form ofvirtual particles and quantum vacuum fluctuations. They explain why the early universe lacked uniformity and provided the seeds for the emergence of structure [2][3]. These quantum phenomena are also causeless in the sense that they are objectively and irreducibly random, a fact confirmed by tests of non-local realism and Bell’s Theorem.

Note 1: Theists often state “God is outside of time”. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.



Number 8. We've already debunked all your arguments.
Why there is no god