How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[Lutroo]

What is happening is that, with the discoveries of modern science (specifically quantum physics), we are confronted by realities for which we have no vocabulary. The relative world we evolved in and created language in has no parallels from which to draw. We cannot, for example, hear that the universe started at 0 some time in the past without automatically asking what preceded. Further, we cannot accept the concept that nothing preceded. We are caught in linguistics.

It's pretty simple. In the beginning was the Word.

 

[Divine Wind]

To me 'natural law' is only our explanation for the consistency we see in what we can know of the universe. We can only assume that we don't know what 'natural law' controls the anomalies.

But to go back to the concept of the OP, where did such 'natural law' originate? It doesn't satisfy me to think it is all by happenchance or that it just is the way it is.

I suspect we humans are still in the age of infancy when it comes to all cosmic knowledge of the universe. We know only a teensy fraction of what there is to know. In our arrogance or desire to control our own existence, it is easy to say such things as 'settled science' or the mathematical and scientific laws we know to exist are absolute.

I personally am not so certain. I prefer to think there is still an infinity of science and knowledge to know. So I think even had I not experienced the living God and thus know He exists, I would be open to the possibility.

I think only the insecure are so determined to demand that there is no supernatural, no existence beyond what we ourselves can prove.

Agreed on human "infancy", but do you know what someone calls it when the laws of physics, gravity, thermodynamics or any other "natural" laws are violated? MAGIC.

If you know of instances where these laws were violated, I'd love to see your evidence.

 

[rightwinger]

What would a 'Creator' so capable want with such a universe?

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

You quote science in your OP yet ignore that matter cannot be created or destroyed..a basic scientific principle

Conservation of mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man cannot create or destroy matter or energy. Who says that God couldn't do it? And you are stuck with the question of why matter and energy exist in the first place. It was either created at some point, or it has always existed. Science cannot explain either scenario.

It was either created at some point, or it has always existed. Science cannot explain either scenario

You can't explain how God was created....he always existed
But you deny that matter could always exist

 

[Divine Wind]

What caused god? If god can be eternal and causeless, why can't the universe?

Scroll up. All the evidence indicates the Universe isn't only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion and will probably end up in "the Big Chill".

 

[Lutroo]

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

Because there are so many more possibilities you haven't even considered. You are correct it is hard to wrap your brain around this, but there was time and space before our universe was created. Think of us as one bubble in a lava lamp

Your universe is just one of a google of universes in an infinite cosmos. You seem to be putting god and/or the cosmos in a box my friend. God isn't eternal and it isn't GOD that has no beginning and no end. The cosmos do.

You can not disagree because even if there is a god and even if he did live forever, he had to live somewhere. And if there is a god, which there probably is not, but if there is, he is a lot older than 13.5 billion years old, am I right?

What created that one little bubble in the bottom right of that lava lamp? To the things that live in that bubble, they can not see the other bubbles, just like you can not see other universes. Not yet anyways.

Poppycock! There is absolutely no evidence of other universes. Also, have you ever heard of the LAW of cause and effect? Everything that happens is the result of something causing it to happen. We live in a single universe. It had a beginning. Something caused it to exist. Since you cannot have a infinite regression of causes, there had to be a primal cause that was itself uncaused. The only definition that fits that primal cause is God.

See how close minded you are to other possibilities? When the fact is, there is no evidence for your god either.

Yes, our universe might have been caused because another one collapsed. Ever hear of black holes? Do you know what's on the other side?

What caused god? If god can be eternal and causeless, why can't the universe?

No evidence for God? You are delusional. Open your eyes! Ever hear of something called the Bible. It is a collection of writings, written by about 40 different authors over a period of 1,500 years. Somehow, these books all agree with each other, without any contradictions. Then there is the fact that a huge portion of those writings are prophetic. These prophecies are 100 percent accurate. What does that tell you?

 

[Divine Wind]

....You can't explain how God was created....he always existed
But you deny that matter could always exist

Did you ever have a problem with the Oscillating Universe theory until it was disproved?

 

[Lutroo]

Wrong question. What you should be asking yourself is what would the universe be doing here without a Creator?

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

You quote science in your OP yet ignore that matter cannot be created or destroyed..a basic scientific principle

Conservation of mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Man cannot create or destroy matter or energy. Who says that God couldn't do it? And you are stuck with the question of why matter and energy exist in the first place. It was either created at some point, or it has always existed. Science cannot explain either scenario.

It was either created at some point, or it has always existed. Science cannot explain either scenario

You can't explain how God was created....he always existed
But you deny that matter could always exist

You are comparing apples and oranges. A physical reality, that science tells us had a beginning, and a Being of pure Spirit. Spirit is neither matter or energy. It is other. Something that we cannot comprehend. And your materialistic theory of origins still has the problem of explaining how and why we even exist. There is no scientific explanation for why we are here. Just like there is no scientific evidence for God. But there is other evidence. Prophetic Scripture for one.

 

[Foxfyre]

To me 'natural law' is only our explanation for the consistency we see in what we can know of the universe. We can only assume that we don't know what 'natural law' controls the anomalies.

But to go back to the concept of the OP, where did such 'natural law' originate? It doesn't satisfy me to think it is all by happenchance or that it just is the way it is.

I suspect we humans are still in the age of infancy when it comes to all cosmic knowledge of the universe. We know only a teensy fraction of what there is to know. In our arrogance or desire to control our own existence, it is easy to say such things as 'settled science' or the mathematical and scientific laws we know to exist are absolute.

I personally am not so certain. I prefer to think there is still an infinity of science and knowledge to know. So I think even had I not experienced the living God and thus know He exists, I would be open to the possibility.

I think only the insecure are so determined to demand that there is no supernatural, no existence beyond what we ourselves can prove.

Agreed on human "infancy", but do you know what someone calls it when the laws of physics, gravity, thermodynamics or any other "natural" laws are violated? MAGIC.

If you know of instances where these laws were violated, I'd love to see your evidence.

No, I don't know of any instances based on what we know of science and mathematics now. I am just saying that I have absolutely no confidence that what we know of science and mathematics is all that there is.

Just think what we have learned in just the last 100 years. More than all of humankind learned combined in the previous 200,000 years of our existence. Just think what we will know in another 1000 years.

I believe we are infants, mere babies, in a universe with all the mathematics and science there is to know. And no, like Einstein--I don't pretend to be as intelligent as he was--I don't believe it all happened purely by chance.

 

[sealybobo]

...
Your universe is just one of a google of universes in an infinite cosmos. You seem to be putting god and/or the cosmos in a box my friend. God isn't eternal and it isn't GOD that has no beginning and no end. The cosmos do. ...

Where is your universe located in relatin to ours?

While I think the multiverse theory is both interesting and very likely, there is zero evidence it is true.

You are free to believe in a power outside the universe or not, but likewise there isn't any direct evidence one way or another. Hence, why it is a matter of faith.

As long as you admit there is no evidence.

 

[bodecea]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

What exactly is orderly about things?

 

[sealybobo]

What caused god? If god can be eternal and causeless, why can't the universe?

Scroll up. All the evidence indicates the Universe isn't only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion and will probably end up in "the Big Chill".

That's one possibility and what science thinks/says now but I don't believe that necessarily. Oh I believe it is expanding and picking up speed but that doesn't mean it will forever. In fact science thinks our universe only has 10 billion years left till all our stars die. Then what will be expanding? Nothing.

According to experts from the Galaxy And Mass Assembly (GAMA), the universe is only churning out half as much energy as it did 2 billion years ago, and is gradually approaching a state of entropy. The study confirmed something researchers have suspected for decades: the stars that populate countless galaxies are slowly burning themselves out. They say we don't have to worry for about 1 billion years but I heard 10 billion.

Oh wait, now they say 30 billion. USATODAY.com - Universe has at least 30 billion years left

They don't know.

 

[Divine Wind]

No, I don't know of any instances based on what we know of science and mathematics now. I am just saying that I have absolutely no confidence that what we know of science and mathematics is all that there is.

Just think what we have learned in just the last 100 years. More than all of humankind learned combined in the previous 200,000 years of our existence. Just think what we will know in another 1000 years.

I believe we are infants, mere babies, in a universe with all the mathematics and science there is to know. And no, like Einstein--I don't pretend to be as intelligent as he was--I don't believe it all happened purely by chance.

Well, so far there is no proof of "magic", and all know laws follow a consistent course. While modern man has been around 200,000 years or so, we only have a written history going back 10,000ish. A lot could have happened in those years so it's a "big unknown" IMO.

 

[sealybobo]

Who created the creator?

No one created Him. Our universe, and everything in it, had a beginning. God is Spirit. I don't know exactly what that is, but it is something greater than and apart from our physical universe. So He has no beginning. I realize that it's difficult to wrap your mind around such a concept, but the alternative is to believe that the universe created itself. That's what you believe, isn't it? That it just exists for no reason at all? How is that any more logical than believing in a Creator?

Because there are so many more possibilities you haven't even considered. You are correct it is hard to wrap your brain around this, but there was time and space before our universe was created. Think of us as one bubble in a lava lamp

Your universe is just one of a google of universes in an infinite cosmos. You seem to be putting god and/or the cosmos in a box my friend. God isn't eternal and it isn't GOD that has no beginning and no end. The cosmos do.

You can not disagree because even if there is a god and even if he did live forever, he had to live somewhere. And if there is a god, which there probably is not, but if there is, he is a lot older than 13.5 billion years old, am I right?

What created that one little bubble in the bottom right of that lava lamp? To the things that live in that bubble, they can not see the other bubbles, just like you can not see other universes. Not yet anyways.

Poppycock! There is absolutely no evidence of other universes. Also, have you ever heard of the LAW of cause and effect? Everything that happens is the result of something causing it to happen. We live in a single universe. It had a beginning. Something caused it to exist. Since you cannot have a infinite regression of causes, there had to be a primal cause that was itself uncaused. The only definition that fits that primal cause is God.

See how close minded you are to other possibilities? When the fact is, there is no evidence for your god either.

Yes, our universe might have been caused because another one collapsed. Ever hear of black holes? Do you know what's on the other side?

What caused god? If god can be eternal and causeless, why can't the universe?

No evidence for God? You are delusional. Open your eyes! Ever hear of something called the Bible. It is a collection of writings, written by about 40 different authors over a period of 1,500 years. Somehow, these books all agree with each other, without any contradictions. Then there is the fact that a huge portion of those writings are prophetic. These prophecies are 100 percent accurate. What does that tell you?

The bible is not evidence. Not even close

1. There is no evidence to support any of the claims made in the Bible concerning the existence of a god. Any ‘evidence’ proposed by theists to support the Bible’s various historical and supernatural claims is non-existent at best, manufactured at worst.
   
   The Bible is not self-authenticating; it is simply one of many religious texts. Like those other texts, it itself constitutes no evidence for the existence of a god. Its florid prose and fanciful content do not legitimise it nor distinguish it from other ancient works of literature.
   
   The Bible is historically inaccurate, factually incorrect, inconsistent and contradictory. It was artificially constructed by a group of men in antiquity and is poorly translated, heavily altered and selectively interpreted. Entire sections of the text have been redacted over time.
   
   See also: Visualisation of Bible Contradictions (must read), Argument from the Bible,Criticisms of the Bible, Consistency of the Bible, A Compendium of Disbelief,Deconversion: The Bible and A History of God (both must watch), BBC The History of God.
   
   Origins of the Bible: PBS Buried Secrets, CH4 Who wrote the Bible? (a must watch).
   
   
   
   
2. Biblical Jesus was not real.
   There is no contemporary evidence for Jesus’ existence or the Bible’s account of his life; no artefacts, dwellings, works of carpentry, self-written manuscripts, court records, eyewitness testimony, official diaries, birth records, reflections on his significance or written disputes about his teachings. Nothing survives from the time in which he is said to have lived.
   
   All historical references to Jesus derive from hearsay accounts written decades or centuries after his supposed death. These historical references generally refer to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus and, in some cases, directly contradict the Gospels or were deliberately manufactured.
   
   The Gospels themselves contradict one-another [2] on many key events and were constructed by unknown authors up to a century after the events they describe are said to have occurred. They are not eyewitness accounts. The New Testament, as a whole, contains many internal inconsistencies as a result of its piecemeal construction and isfactually incorrect on several historical claims, such as the early existence of Nazareth, the reign of Herod and the Roman census. Like the Old Testament, it too has had entire books and sections redacted.
   
   The Biblical account of Jesus has striking similarities with other mythologies and textsand many of his supposed teachings existed prior to his time. It is likely the character was either partly or entirely invented [2] by competing first century messianic cults from an amalgamation of Greco-Roman, Egyptian and Judeo-Apocalyptic myths and prophecies.
   
   Even if Jesus’ existence could be established, this would in no way validate Christian theology or any element of the story portrayed in the Bible, such as the performance of miracles or the resurrection. Simply because it is conceivable a heretical Jewish preacher named Yeshua lived circa 30 AD, had followers and was executed, does not imply the son of a god walked the Earth at that time.
   
   The motivation for belief in a divine, salvational Jesus breaks down when you accept evolution:
   
   “Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” – Ken Ham
   

Why there is no god

We don't really take people who take the bible literally seriously around here just so you know. I'm ok with someone trying to convince us that "something" must have created us but can not take anyone who takes the bible literally seriously.

Its like we are all in the 12th grade and a 3rd grader just walked into the debate.

 

[Divine Wind]

What caused god? If god can be eternal and causeless, why can't the universe?

Scroll up. All the evidence indicates the Universe isn't only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion and will probably end up in "the Big Chill".

That's one possibility and what science thinks/says now but I don't believe that necessarily. Oh I believe it is expanding and picking up speed but that doesn't mean it will forever. In fact science thinks our universe only has 10 billion years left till all our stars die. Then what will be expanding? Nothing.

According to experts from the Galaxy And Mass Assembly (GAMA), the universe is only churning out half as much energy as it did 2 billion years ago, and is gradually approaching a state of entropy. The study confirmed something researchers have suspected for decades: the stars that populate countless galaxies are slowly burning themselves out. They say we don't have to worry for about 1 billion years but I heard 10 billion.

Oh wait, now they say 30 billion. USATODAY.com - Universe has at least 30 billion years left

They don't know.

LOL. You claim all believers are idiots for disbelieving science, then you cherry-pick what you want to believe in science and what you disbelieve. It's appears you're closer to the 3rd grader than you think:

The bible is not evidence. Not even close

1. There is no evidence to support any of the claims made in the Bible concerning the existence of a god. Any ‘evidence’ proposed by theists to support the Bible’s various historical and supernatural claims is non-existent at best, manufactured at worst.
   
   The Bible is not self-authenticating; it is simply one of many religious texts. Like those other texts, it itself constitutes no evidence for the existence of a god. Its florid prose and fanciful content do not legitimise it nor distinguish it from other ancient works of literature.
   
   The Bible is historically inaccurate, factually incorrect, inconsistent and contradictory. It was artificially constructed by a group of men in antiquity and is poorly translated, heavily altered and selectively interpreted. Entire sections of the text have been redacted over time.
   
   See also: Visualisation of Bible Contradictions (must read), Argument from the Bible,Criticisms of the Bible, Consistency of the Bible, A Compendium of Disbelief,Deconversion: The Bible and A History of God (both must watch), BBC The History of God.
   
   Origins of the Bible: PBS Buried Secrets, CH4 Who wrote the Bible? (a must watch).
   
   
   
   
2. Biblical Jesus was not real.
   There is no contemporary evidence for Jesus’ existence or the Bible’s account of his life; no artefacts, dwellings, works of carpentry, self-written manuscripts, court records, eyewitness testimony, official diaries, birth records, reflections on his significance or written disputes about his teachings. Nothing survives from the time in which he is said to have lived.
   
   All historical references to Jesus derive from hearsay accounts written decades or centuries after his supposed death. These historical references generally refer to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus and, in some cases, directly contradict the Gospels or were deliberately manufactured.
   
   The Gospels themselves contradict one-another [2] on many key events and were constructed by unknown authors up to a century after the events they describe are said to have occurred. They are not eyewitness accounts. The New Testament, as a whole, contains many internal inconsistencies as a result of its piecemeal construction and isfactually incorrect on several historical claims, such as the early existence of Nazareth, the reign of Herod and the Roman census. Like the Old Testament, it too has had entire books and sections redacted.
   
   The Biblical account of Jesus has striking similarities with other mythologies and textsand many of his supposed teachings existed prior to his time. It is likely the character was either partly or entirely invented [2] by competing first century messianic cults from an amalgamation of Greco-Roman, Egyptian and Judeo-Apocalyptic myths and prophecies.
   
   Even if Jesus’ existence could be established, this would in no way validate Christian theology or any element of the story portrayed in the Bible, such as the performance of miracles or the resurrection. Simply because it is conceivable a heretical Jewish preacher named Yeshua lived circa 30 AD, had followers and was executed, does not imply the son of a god walked the Earth at that time.
   
   The motivation for belief in a divine, salvational Jesus breaks down when you accept evolution:
   
   “Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” – Ken Ham

Why there is no god

We don't really take people who take the bible literally seriously around here just so you know. I'm ok with someone trying to convince us that "something" must have created us but can not take anyone who takes the bible literally seriously.

Its like we are all in the 12th grade and a 3rd grader just walked into the debate.

 

[sealybobo]

No, I don't know of any instances based on what we know of science and mathematics now. I am just saying that I have absolutely no confidence that what we know of science and mathematics is all that there is.

Just think what we have learned in just the last 100 years. More than all of humankind learned combined in the previous 200,000 years of our existence. Just think what we will know in another 1000 years.

I believe we are infants, mere babies, in a universe with all the mathematics and science there is to know. And no, like Einstein--I don't pretend to be as intelligent as he was--I don't believe it all happened purely by chance.

Well, so far there is no proof of "magic", and all know laws follow a consistent course. While modern man has been around 200,000 years or so, we only have a written history going back 10,000ish. A lot could have happened in those years so it's a "big unknown" IMO.

Trilobites existed for millions of years before dinosaurs and dinosaurs millions before us and after we are gone these suckers will still be around.

Tardigrade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They have been found everywhere from mountaintops to the deep sea, from tropical rain forests to the Antarctic.

Tardigrades are notable for being perhaps the most durable of known organisms: they can survive extreme conditions that would be rapidly fatal to nearly all other known life forms. They can withstand temperature ranges from −458 °F; −272 °C) to about 300 °F; 150 °C, pressures about six times greater than those found in the deepest ocean trenches, ionizing radiation at doses hundreds of times higher than the lethal dose for a human, and the vacuum of outer space. They can go without food or water for more than 30 years, drying out to the point where they are 3% or less water, only to rehydrate, forage, and reproduce.

 

[sealybobo]

What caused god? If god can be eternal and causeless, why can't the universe?

Scroll up. All the evidence indicates the Universe isn't only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion and will probably end up in "the Big Chill".

That's one possibility and what science thinks/says now but I don't believe that necessarily. Oh I believe it is expanding and picking up speed but that doesn't mean it will forever. In fact science thinks our universe only has 10 billion years left till all our stars die. Then what will be expanding? Nothing.

According to experts from the Galaxy And Mass Assembly (GAMA), the universe is only churning out half as much energy as it did 2 billion years ago, and is gradually approaching a state of entropy. The study confirmed something researchers have suspected for decades: the stars that populate countless galaxies are slowly burning themselves out. They say we don't have to worry for about 1 billion years but I heard 10 billion.

Oh wait, now they say 30 billion. USATODAY.com - Universe has at least 30 billion years left

They don't know.

LOL. You claim all believers are idiots for disbelieving science, then you cherry-pick what you want to believe in science and what you disbelieve. It's appears you're closer to the 3rd grader than you think:

The bible is not evidence. Not even close

1. There is no evidence to support any of the claims made in the Bible concerning the existence of a god. Any ‘evidence’ proposed by theists to support the Bible’s various historical and supernatural claims is non-existent at best, manufactured at worst.
   
   The Bible is not self-authenticating; it is simply one of many religious texts. Like those other texts, it itself constitutes no evidence for the existence of a god. Its florid prose and fanciful content do not legitimise it nor distinguish it from other ancient works of literature.
   
   The Bible is historically inaccurate, factually incorrect, inconsistent and contradictory. It was artificially constructed by a group of men in antiquity and is poorly translated, heavily altered and selectively interpreted. Entire sections of the text have been redacted over time.
   
   See also: Visualisation of Bible Contradictions (must read), Argument from the Bible,Criticisms of the Bible, Consistency of the Bible, A Compendium of Disbelief,Deconversion: The Bible and A History of God (both must watch), BBC The History of God.
   
   Origins of the Bible: PBS Buried Secrets, CH4 Who wrote the Bible? (a must watch).
   
   
   
   
2. Biblical Jesus was not real.
   There is no contemporary evidence for Jesus’ existence or the Bible’s account of his life; no artefacts, dwellings, works of carpentry, self-written manuscripts, court records, eyewitness testimony, official diaries, birth records, reflections on his significance or written disputes about his teachings. Nothing survives from the time in which he is said to have lived.
   
   All historical references to Jesus derive from hearsay accounts written decades or centuries after his supposed death. These historical references generally refer to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus and, in some cases, directly contradict the Gospels or were deliberately manufactured.
   
   The Gospels themselves contradict one-another [2] on many key events and were constructed by unknown authors up to a century after the events they describe are said to have occurred. They are not eyewitness accounts. The New Testament, as a whole, contains many internal inconsistencies as a result of its piecemeal construction and isfactually incorrect on several historical claims, such as the early existence of Nazareth, the reign of Herod and the Roman census. Like the Old Testament, it too has had entire books and sections redacted.
   
   The Biblical account of Jesus has striking similarities with other mythologies and textsand many of his supposed teachings existed prior to his time. It is likely the character was either partly or entirely invented [2] by competing first century messianic cults from an amalgamation of Greco-Roman, Egyptian and Judeo-Apocalyptic myths and prophecies.
   
   Even if Jesus’ existence could be established, this would in no way validate Christian theology or any element of the story portrayed in the Bible, such as the performance of miracles or the resurrection. Simply because it is conceivable a heretical Jewish preacher named Yeshua lived circa 30 AD, had followers and was executed, does not imply the son of a god walked the Earth at that time.
   
   The motivation for belief in a divine, salvational Jesus breaks down when you accept evolution:
   
   “Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” – Ken Ham

Why there is no god

We don't really take people who take the bible literally seriously around here just so you know. I'm ok with someone trying to convince us that "something" must have created us but can not take anyone who takes the bible literally seriously.

Its like we are all in the 12th grade and a 3rd grader just walked into the debate.

I think you know what I mean and what the difference is. I don't "believe" science because

Science keeps changing because the tools used to perform science keep improving. When the universe of available evidence changes, scientific theories must be re-evaluated. There are no absolute truths in science; all laws, theories and conclusions can become obsolete if they are found in contradiction with new evidence. However, ascientific theory is the highest honour any scientific principle can obtain, for they comprise all the evidence, laws and models relevant to an observed phenomena. Theories are rarely proven incorrect and are usually refined on a time-scale measured in centuries.

The scientific method is not a single recipe: it requires intelligence, intuition, and creativity. It is an ongoing cycle, constantly developing more useful, accurate and comprehensive models and methods, but not necessarily discarding old ones. For example, when Einstein developed the General and Special Theories of Relativity, he did not in any way refute or discount Newton’s Principia. On the contrary, if the astronomically large, vanishingly small and extremely fast are removed from Einstein’s theories — phenomena Newton could not have observed — Newton’s equations are what remain. Einstein’s theories are simply expansions and refinements of Newton’s theories and thus increase our confidence in Newton’s work while providing a deeper understanding. The very same relationship applies to Classical Mechanics and Quantum Mechanics, and to Evolution and Genetics.

Science is an exercise in falsifiability. Unlike religious dogma, which presumes the truth, the scientific method is a self correcting process, an ever sharpening blade. The models used by science to explain observations and make predictions are simply the ‘most correct’ at the time. The greatest skepticism should always be reserved for inflexible positions whose proponents insist that they and their assertions are above question and examination.

 

[Divine Wind]

No, I don't know of any instances based on what we know of science and mathematics now. I am just saying that I have absolutely no confidence that what we know of science and mathematics is all that there is.

Just think what we have learned in just the last 100 years. More than all of humankind learned combined in the previous 200,000 years of our existence. Just think what we will know in another 1000 years.

I believe we are infants, mere babies, in a universe with all the mathematics and science there is to know. And no, like Einstein--I don't pretend to be as intelligent as he was--I don't believe it all happened purely by chance.

Well, so far there is no proof of "magic", and all know laws follow a consistent course. While modern man has been around 200,000 years or so, we only have a written history going back 10,000ish. A lot could have happened in those years so it's a "big unknown" IMO.

Trilobites existed for millions of years before dinosaurs and dinosaurs millions before us and after we are gone these suckers will still be around.

Tardigrade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They have been found everywhere from mountaintops to the deep sea, from tropical rain forests to the Antarctic.

Tardigrades are notable for being perhaps the most durable of known organisms: they can survive extreme conditions that would be rapidly fatal to nearly all other known life forms. They can withstand temperature ranges from −458 °F; −272 °C) to about 300 °F; 150 °C, pressures about six times greater than those found in the deepest ocean trenches, ionizing radiation at doses hundreds of times higher than the lethal dose for a human, and the vacuum of outer space. They can go without food or water for more than 30 years, drying out to the point where they are 3% or less water, only to rehydrate, forage, and reproduce.

Thanks for the 3rd grade science lesson. Last year I sent a grandson a microscope for his birthday and then sent him links on things to look for with it. One was "water bears".

 

[sealybobo]

No, I don't know of any instances based on what we know of science and mathematics now. I am just saying that I have absolutely no confidence that what we know of science and mathematics is all that there is.

Just think what we have learned in just the last 100 years. More than all of humankind learned combined in the previous 200,000 years of our existence. Just think what we will know in another 1000 years.

I believe we are infants, mere babies, in a universe with all the mathematics and science there is to know. And no, like Einstein--I don't pretend to be as intelligent as he was--I don't believe it all happened purely by chance.

Well, so far there is no proof of "magic", and all know laws follow a consistent course. While modern man has been around 200,000 years or so, we only have a written history going back 10,000ish. A lot could have happened in those years so it's a "big unknown" IMO.

Trilobites existed for millions of years before dinosaurs and dinosaurs millions before us and after we are gone these suckers will still be around.

Tardigrade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They have been found everywhere from mountaintops to the deep sea, from tropical rain forests to the Antarctic.

Tardigrades are notable for being perhaps the most durable of known organisms: they can survive extreme conditions that would be rapidly fatal to nearly all other known life forms. They can withstand temperature ranges from −458 °F; −272 °C) to about 300 °F; 150 °C, pressures about six times greater than those found in the deepest ocean trenches, ionizing radiation at doses hundreds of times higher than the lethal dose for a human, and the vacuum of outer space. They can go without food or water for more than 30 years, drying out to the point where they are 3% or less water, only to rehydrate, forage, and reproduce.

Thanks for the 3rd grade science lesson. Last year I sent a grandson a microscope for his birthday and then sent him links on things to look for with it. One was "water bears".

What is it you believe again? And explain it to me like I'm a 3rd grader? How did we get here? Who? How do you know that? Who told you this? Why would you expect me to believe that? I don't believe in hell.

 

[sealybobo]

No, I don't know of any instances based on what we know of science and mathematics now. I am just saying that I have absolutely no confidence that what we know of science and mathematics is all that there is.

Just think what we have learned in just the last 100 years. More than all of humankind learned combined in the previous 200,000 years of our existence. Just think what we will know in another 1000 years.

I believe we are infants, mere babies, in a universe with all the mathematics and science there is to know. And no, like Einstein--I don't pretend to be as intelligent as he was--I don't believe it all happened purely by chance.

Well, so far there is no proof of "magic", and all know laws follow a consistent course. While modern man has been around 200,000 years or so, we only have a written history going back 10,000ish. A lot could have happened in those years so it's a "big unknown" IMO.

Trilobites existed for millions of years before dinosaurs and dinosaurs millions before us and after we are gone these suckers will still be around.

Tardigrade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They have been found everywhere from mountaintops to the deep sea, from tropical rain forests to the Antarctic.

Tardigrades are notable for being perhaps the most durable of known organisms: they can survive extreme conditions that would be rapidly fatal to nearly all other known life forms. They can withstand temperature ranges from −458 °F; −272 °C) to about 300 °F; 150 °C, pressures about six times greater than those found in the deepest ocean trenches, ionizing radiation at doses hundreds of times higher than the lethal dose for a human, and the vacuum of outer space. They can go without food or water for more than 30 years, drying out to the point where they are 3% or less water, only to rehydrate, forage, and reproduce.

Thanks for the 3rd grade science lesson. Last year I sent a grandson a microscope for his birthday and then sent him links on things to look for with it. One was "water bears".

If you don't want 3rd grade stories quit making 3rd grade arguments. #39 Why there is no god

The question of life’s meaning and purpose is made no less important to an individual by not believing in a god. However, instead of asking “What is the meaning of life?” (which is begging the question) an atheist might ask “What meaning, if any, can I give to my life?”.

Most things in life are worth doing for their own sake, they do not require an existential reason. Satisfying curiosity, experiencing love and friendship, acting charitably, delighting our senses and achieving personal goals all provide an inherit sense of gratification and purpose. Conversely, religion deprives life of any personal meaning by turning it into a form of serfdom, in which our only goal is to appease the whims of a supposed creator and follow its ‘plan’. Any impetus to seek knowledge and explore is removed because all the supposed ‘answers’ are provided.

Beyond simple biological imperatives life’s purpose is what we make it and nihilism is just one of many possible approaches. For example, Naturalism would suggest that one’s purpose is to ‘foster an environment in which the species can survive, either by passing on genes or memes’. Humanism suggests it is to ‘promote human flourishing’. Post-modernism suggests it is to ‘create complex structures and interactions for the purpose of joy and understanding’. Buddhism, which is fully compatible with atheism, suggests it is to “focus on the human potential to overcome suffering and achieve peacefulness”.

Perspective is important, within each of our trillion cells we carry a genetic heritage, unbroken, stretching back over 4 billion years.

The Universe, in it’s silent dwarfing beauty, may not care about human life – but we do. So our brief and improbable time here may best be spent experiencing its wonders together, not in indentured servitude to an imaginary celestial dictator.

See also: Richard Feynman on science and purpose [shorter] (a must watch), Dawkins – We are going to die… and we are the lucky ones (a must watch), A Reassuring Fableby Carl Sagan.

“If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.” – Joss Whedon

“The significance of our lives and our fragile planet is determined only by our own wisdom and courage. We are the custodians of life’s meaning. We long for a Parent to care for us, to forgive us our errors, to save us from our childish mistakes. But knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal.” – Carl Sagan

 

[Vandalshandle]

i've read the Bible through and through 3 times, but to tell you the truth, I never really could get past the part about the talking snake....