How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[Rikurzhen]

It's a study from 2013, as it clearly says. If you want to know what ratio of high school students are learning disabled or have cognitive abilities, go look it up your self. I'm not your internet research assistant.

I'm suspect of such definitions given how special ed is abused these days...

It's a more-than-appropriate question, since students with disabilities are now mainstreamed, they might be lumped into the study.

Then look it up yourself. This is a DOE study. Given the government bias to promote education, I would find it highly unlikely that they oversampled kids with learning disabilities in order to make functional illiteracy look worse than it is.

I just gave you the link with the last tests done.

Groovy. Go ahead and read up then.

For my part, a 19% functional illiteracy rate among High School GRADUATES is an Epic Fail.

It's not just functional illiteracy, take a look:

With a 3.0 grade point average anchoring a solid academic record, Robyn Collins, 18, has big plans once she graduates from Reed High School in Sparks, Nev. She intends to spend several months in National Guard boot camp before taking advantage of a state scholarship to go on to college.
The only problem is that she might not graduate from high school.

Collins is among 2,195 students -- 12 percent of the state's senior class -- who have completed all their course work requirements but will not receive high school diplomas this spring because they have not passed the math portion of Nevada's high school graduation test. Instead, they will be awarded certificates of attendance, which often are not recognized by employers or four-year colleges.

Instituted as part of the reforms designed to shore up sagging confidence in public education, the latest generation of high school exit exams is stirring a backlash across the country. Legislators and educators in a growing number of states, including Nevada, Florida, Massachusetts, California, North Carolina and Florida, are facing pressure to delay or scrap the tests because of the number of students who are failing them.
​

Try some questions yourself:

 

[Disir]

Date 2003

 

[Rikurzhen]

Good teachers should be leaving the field in droves. They have given up their earning potential in the private sector.... for what? To help a nation? I would never think of it.

Teachers aren't self-sacrificing saints. They want the job because they like the work.

It's very rare to see a teacher job opening that doesn't get ANY applicants.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Scuze me - your OWN LINK provides access to this information:

http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/kf_demographics.asp#3

Studies in 1992 and 2003.

And why on earth do you think it make it OKAY if High School are graduating Functionally Illiterate Kids with learning and cognitive disabilities? Your entire argument is that the 19% Functional Illiteracy Rate for High School Graduates MUST be due to learning and cognitive disabilities. Is it really good Public Policy to graduate such illiterates from high school? If they CAN'T LEARN, why are we spending scarce resources warehousing them.

Public schools have a duty to educate all children.

Even if they graduate functionally illiterate, if that's their potential, then it is what it is.

However, it's dishonest to throw them in with mainstream students when it comes to test scores.

You can thank the liberals for that policy reform.

 

[ricechickie]

There's a little something wrong with your assertion. The tables don't show 12th Grade reading scores and 7th Grade reading scores.

I suspect you are using the average score of white students in the 12th and 8th grade, and suggesting that because black scores were significantly lower, so that the black students' average 12th grade score was still less than the white students average 8th grade score, that they were reading at a "7th grade level."

That presupposes that the white score was the standard set as far as reading level. In other words, the average white students' score set the bar for where everyone else should be.

This should give you an indication of how loose the standards are. What we see here are students with a 12th grade reading ability in the same grade as those with a 7th grade reading level. It doesn't directly address your question of what constitutes "can't read" but you could probably find that answer by delving into the Standard Deviation data.

 

[regent]

At one time government jobs were part of the spoils system. When the incumbent political party was replaced, the government jobs were meted out to the winning party politicians. Small school districts were gutted and replaced with the party faithful from janitors to teachers. That practice in government was replaced with Civil Service, and in the schools with tenure. Most school districts live with tenure and it does protect some teachers, but it beats the mass firing and issuance of emergency teaching credentials to the party faithful. Tenure is also a problem for school administrators when they have a teacher that doesn't know his or her place and teaches in a manner or philosophy that differs from the administrators. My experience with school administrators is they want today's school day to be like yesterdays and tomorrow's school day to be like today. What they don't want is for their school to make the five o'clock news.

 

[ricechickie]

It's not just functional illiteracy, take a look:

​

1. b 2. b 3. d 4. c

 

[Rikurzhen]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

You're wrong. It's the wrong thread to listen to you whine about why you are a failure as a man. Save it.

When an intelligent women had her career options restricted, instead of being a physicist or physician, she went into teaching. The teaching profession benefited immensely from the career restrictions placed on women. Once those restrictions were lifted, the most intelligent women sought careers in other fields and the quality of teachers declined.

 

[ricechickie]

When an intelligent women had her career options restricted, instead of being a physicist or physician, she went into teaching. The teaching profession benefited immensely from the career restrictions placed on women. Once those restrictions were lifted, the most intelligent women sought careers in other fields and the quality of teachers declined.

Why did they go to other fields? Isn't teaching so incredibly rewarding, and is the respect given teachers so incredibly high, that it's the obvious choice for a career?

No? It was something that was considered to be "women's work" and demeaned as such?

Hmmmm. Go figure.

 

[Disir]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

You're wrong. It's the wrong thread to listen to you whine about why you are a failure as a man. Save it.

When an intelligent women had her career options restricted, instead of being a physicist or physician, she went into teaching. The teaching profession benefited immensely from the career restrictions placed on women. Once those restrictions were lifted, the most intelligent women sought careers in other fields and the quality of teachers declined.

Conjecture.

 

[boedicca]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

 

[Rikurzhen]

There's a little something wrong with your assertion. The tables don't show 12th Grade reading scores and 7th Grade reading scores.

I suspect you are using the average score of white students in the 12th and 8th grade, and suggesting that because black scores were significantly lower, so that the black students' average 12th grade score was still less than the white students average 8th grade score, that they were reading at a "7th grade level."

That presupposes that the white score was the standard set as far as reading level. In other words, the average white students' score set the bar for where everyone else should be.

This should give you an indication of how loose the standards are. What we see here are students with a 12th grade reading ability in the same grade as those with a 7th grade reading level. It doesn't directly address your question of what constitutes "can't read" but you could probably find that answer by delving into the Standard Deviation data.

From PBS and Tavis Smiley:

- On average, African American twelfth-grade students read at the same level as white
eighth-grade students.​

 

[ricechickie]

From PBS and Tavis Smiley:

- On average, African American twelfth-grade students read at the same level as white
eighth-grade students.​

That is not the same as kids at an eighth grade reading level compared to a twelfth grade reading level.

 

[Rikurzhen]

When an intelligent women had her career options restricted, instead of being a physicist or physician, she went into teaching. The teaching profession benefited immensely from the career restrictions placed on women. Once those restrictions were lifted, the most intelligent women sought careers in other fields and the quality of teachers declined.

Why did they go to other fields? Isn't teaching so incredibly rewarding, and is the respect given teachers so incredibly high, that it's the obvious choice for a career?

No? It was something that was considered to be "women's work" and demeaned as such?

Hmmmm. Go figure.

Any field women dominate finds its reputation declining. The women went to other fields because they were better paid, more intellectually challenging, were more prestigious.

 

[Disir]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

 

[Rikurzhen]

From PBS and Tavis Smiley:

- On average, African American twelfth-grade students read at the same level as white
eighth-grade students.​

That is not the same as kids at an eighth grade reading level compared to a twelfth grade reading level.

If you're going to make an argument, then do us all a favor and skip the argument by assertion tactic. Here's the technical record on how to interpret scores:

Average scale scores are computed for groups of students; NAEP does not produce individual student scores. The results for all grades assessed are placed together on one reporting scale. In the base year of the trend line, the assessed grades are analyzed together to create a cross-grade scale. In subsequent years, the data from each grade level are analyzed separately and then linked to the original cross-grade scale established in the base year. Comparisons of overall national performance across grade levels on a cross-grade scale are acceptable​

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

That of course has a lot to do with the district you're in.
We pay the highest school taxes in the state and the schools are excellent as far as public schools go. And you have students who are raised properly so that goes a long way in making a school successful.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

It's a study from 2013, as it clearly says. If you want to know what ratio of high school students are learning disabled or have cognitive abilities, go look it up your self. I'm not your internet research assistant.

I'm suspect of such definitions given how special ed is abused these days...

It's a more-than-appropriate question, since students with disabilities are now mainstreamed, they might be lumped into the study.

Then look it up yourself. This is a DOE study. Given the government bias to promote education, I would find it highly unlikely that they oversampled kids with learning disabilities in order to make functional illiteracy look worse than it is.

I just gave you the link with the last tests done.

Groovy. Go ahead and read up then.

For my part, a 19% functional illiteracy rate among High School GRADUATES is an Epic Fail.

It's not just functional illiteracy, take a look:

With a 3.0 grade point average anchoring a solid academic record, Robyn Collins, 18, has big plans once she graduates from Reed High School in Sparks, Nev. She intends to spend several months in National Guard boot camp before taking advantage of a state scholarship to go on to college.
The only problem is that she might not graduate from high school.

Collins is among 2,195 students -- 12 percent of the state's senior class -- who have completed all their course work requirements but will not receive high school diplomas this spring because they have not passed the math portion of Nevada's high school graduation test. Instead, they will be awarded certificates of attendance, which often are not recognized by employers or four-year colleges.

Instituted as part of the reforms designed to shore up sagging confidence in public education, the latest generation of high school exit exams is stirring a backlash across the country. Legislators and educators in a growing number of states, including Nevada, Florida, Massachusetts, California, North Carolina and Florida, are facing pressure to delay or scrap the tests because of the number of students who are failing them.
​

Try some questions yourself:

How do you maintian a 3.0 without being able to pass such a simple exam? Seriously

 

[Rikurzhen]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

That of course has a lot to do with the district you're in.
We pay the highest school taxes in the state and the schools are excellent as far as public schools go. And you have students who are raised properly so that goes a long way in making a school successful.

All you need to know to make a highly accurate prediction about school quality is this - how good are the students. Student quality is the principal driving factor behind student outcomes. Not spending, not teacher tenure, not teacher training, not computerization. It's all about what the kid does with the material.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

That of course has a lot to do with the district you're in.
We pay the highest school taxes in the state and the schools are excellent as far as public schools go. And you have students who are raised properly so that goes a long way in making a school successful.

All you need to know to make a highly accurate prediction about school quality is this - how good are the students. Student quality is the principal driving factor behind student outcomes. Not spending, not teacher tenure, not teacher training, not computerization. It's all about what the kid does with the material.

Incorrect. What you REALLY need to know is, how good are the parents.