How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

[JimBowie1958]

Ya ..Bruce.. would ya change your mind for some "Jesus Justice?" Come ON don't be asceered !!

Just...Say you will...

Jackie Wilson - Lonely Tear Drops - YouTube

Hey Huggy glad you can join us. maybe you can help?

One of my favorite nontheist "neighbors in Christ"
is a peace and justice activist, totally has faith in justice
and compassion for all humanity through forgiveness
and "abundance of free grace in life" and just has no concept of God or Jesus
and doesn't need one. Gets along great with other Buddhists, Christians, etc.
working on Peace and Justice locally and globally.

So I thought hey, if this gay atheist can align with Christians by focusing
on justice, and what it takes to replace retributive justice with restorative justice, then anyone can work out their differences, right? as long as we are forgiving of each other.

So I see the focus on Truth and Justice as a unifying and universal principle.
and the key issue in relating across political or religious lines is FORGIVENESS.
As long as we can FORGIVE our differences we can work together to correct
any problem, by focusing on where we AGREE FIRST
while we work out conflicts in the process.

If people aren't forgiving, then whether you are nontheist or Christian,
that's going to cause problems. It isn't the religion per se, but if we forgive each other.

SOOooo.... you are trying to sell "Justice" as "Forgiveness?"

Fiddlesticks !

You are barking up the wrong tree with a Chihuahua.

If you want to do the crime prepare to do the time. If you are doing a righteous crime do it well..don't get caught.

If you do get caught don't whine about it. If you are doing crime because you are lazy or evil...you have nothing coming. I have zero sympathy for you.

I have no problem with someone that kills another human being that really needs to be killed as long as you understand that you are gambling with your own life to do the deed.

Some people are so evil or otherwise useless wastes of oxygen that it is "the right thing" to offer up your own life to rid the world of evil. ORrrr... Just plan well and keep your mouth shut.

NOsiree Moncheree.. you can't sell Justice and sneak jeebus in the back door with forgiveness in HUGGY's Neighborhood.

If you support my enemy you are my enemy.

You are yourown worst enemy.

In not one instance has the enemies of Christ taken over a country in which they did not start slaughtering each other with purges and reigns of terror.

But then again, you do deserve it so well.

 

[thebrucebeat]

I doubt that the same God who commanded the complete slaughter of the Amalekites has the same notion of what 'peaceful' is as you do, idjit.

Sure; why not?

lol, no, I take St Paul very seriously. It is poseurs like you I don't take seriously.



Dude if the shoe fits wear it, if not blow the fuck off.

I see you take the Fruits very seriously.
Perhaps you use them as toilet paper.

I don't take you seriously, nor liars like you.

you can shove your fruits up your ass.

Your wrong.
They are YOUR Fruits, if you are actually a Christian that cares even a little bit about the scriptures.
Why do you hate being held to the standards of the scripture you pretend to receive your faith from?
Obviously you don't have any interest in the bible as a guide for your behavior. You think Paul is some kind of ridiculously ignorant dreamer.
Why do you hate the bible?
Don't try to say you don't.
You aren't hating my words. I didn't write them.
They are your scriptures.

 

[thebrucebeat]

How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

I would be far more interested in hearing those who do believe in life after death, Heaven bound Christians among them, define and describe their expectations.

`​

Cool, me too!

So start a thread on it, why doncha?

Why would you go there?
That is a scriptural description, and we already know you think scripture is a joke.
You hate scripture.
You told me to stick scripture where the sun don't shine.

 

[DriftingSand]

How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

I would be far more interested in hearing those who do believe in life after death, Heaven bound Christians among them, define and describe their expectations.

`​

Okay ... I'll bite. I may post some Scripture in the process but I'll try to make it short.

First of all, I believe that we will be transformed from flesh bodies to glorified, incorruptible bodies that are spiritual in nature:

1 Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Revelation 21:4, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

There will be 3 levels to Heaven. I don't know how each level differs from the others but I base my belief on this verse:

2 Corinthians 12:2, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven."

Heaven will reveal the "glory of God." I believe it will be a place of peace and tranquility and pure goodness. Lies and strife and hatred and evil will be non-existent.

Here's a pretty good description of Heaven: http://www.gotquestions.org/heaven-like.html

But honestly, I don't think that any man can put into words what Heaven will truly be like. But I do believe in life after the death of our current body and that Heaven and Hell are literal places.

 

[Chuckt]

How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

I would be far more interested in hearing those who do believe in life after death, Heaven bound Christians among them, define and describe their expectations.

`​

Okay ... I'll bite. I may post some Scripture in the process but I'll try to make it short.

First of all, I believe that we will be transformed from flesh bodies to glorified, incorruptible bodies that are spiritual in nature:

1 Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Revelation 21:4, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

There will be 3 levels to Heaven. I don't know how each level differs from the others but I base my belief on this verse:

2 Corinthians 12:2, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven."

Heaven will reveal the "glory of God." I believe it will be a place of peace and tranquility and pure goodness. Lies and strife and hatred and evil will be non-existent.

Here's a pretty good description of Heaven: What is Heaven like?

But honestly, I don't think that any man can put into words what Heaven will truly be like. But I do believe in life after the death of our current body and that Heaven and Hell are literal places.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Heaven is incorruptible, undefiled and fadeth not away. I think that sums it up best.

 

[Chuckt]

I see you take the Fruits very seriously.
Perhaps you use them as toilet paper.

I don't take you seriously, nor liars like you.

you can shove your fruits up your ass.

Your wrong.
They are YOUR Fruits, if you are actually a Christian that cares even a little bit about the scriptures.
Why do you hate being held to the standards of the scripture you pretend to receive your faith from?
Obviously you don't have any interest in the bible as a guide for your behavior. You think Paul is some kind of ridiculously ignorant dreamer.
Why do you hate the bible?
Don't try to say you don't.
You aren't hating my words. I didn't write them.
They are your scriptures.

If you want Christians to change like that then maybe you ought to change yourself.

 

[emilynghiem]

SOOooo.... you are trying to sell "Justice" as "Forgiveness?"

Fiddlesticks !

You are barking up the wrong tree with a Chihuahua.

If you want to do the crime prepare to do the time. If you are doing a righteous crime do it well..don't get caught.

If you do get caught don't whine about it. If you are doing crime because you are lazy or evil...you have nothing coming. I have zero sympathy for you.

I have no problem with someone that kills another human being that really needs to be killed as long as you understand that you are gambling with your own life to do the deed.

Some people are so evil or otherwise useless wastes of oxygen that it is "the right thing" to offer up your own life to rid the world of evil. ORrrr... Just plan well and keep your mouth shut.

NOsiree Moncheree.. you can't sell Justice and sneak jeebus in the back door with forgiveness in HUGGY's Neighborhood.

If you support my enemy you are my enemy.

Hi Huggy: Thanks for spelling out what the issues are. I hope Bruce can jump in, too!

First, forgiveness is not about enabling, coddling or overlooking wrongs.
You can forgive emotionally and still go through all the steps through the state
to prosecute and sentence someone under the law. The two are SEPARATE.

You do not need to be angry or unforgiving in order to execute strong swift justice.

Second, all the cases where I have seen a person take responsibility for their actions
involved someone open to healing, correction and restitution, which forgiveness allows.

The cases of curing criminal illness and addiction, so that the person gets help to stop risking hurting themselves or others, are achieved by forgiveness.

When I look at the cases where crime victims healed, offenders took responsibility and offered restitution, or sick people got help (that if they had received sooner, it would have prevented worse damage destruction or death), these all involve forgiveness.

If you look at most crimes, they involve someone "not forgiving" but projecting blame, anger or retribution at someone else, until they are FORCED to get help for their problem.
Even the criminal illness that some people are "born with" like dangerous schizophrenics or psychopaths -- the spiritual causes of these patterns have been treated, reduced or cured by spiritual therapy based on forgiveness of past or generational abuses that caused the pattern to repeat.

This is a very deep subject that I hope will be researched and proven with medical science.

In the meantime, please know that forgiveness is on a spiritual emotional level to help the victims of injustice to recover and not carry the wounds or burdens of other people's ills.

And it is SEPARATE from civil laws and justice system that requires restitution for victims.

That part is STILL OWED even if the person is forgiven. Forgiving a person emotionally
does not make the debts and damages "magically" go away that still require restitution.

Spiritual laws of the church are SEPARATE from the legal requirements of the state.

I believe we need more direct laws to hold wrongdoers accountable for the costs.
I believe we could enforce that more consistently under a Restorative Justice system,
where people are rewarded and encouraged for taking responsibility. Under the retributive system, lawyers and criminals are rewarded for hiding what they do wrong.
This encourages denying legal responsibility for fear of punishment; where more people are killed as a means of escaping prosecution instead of deterring crime and murder.

I believe we would prevent, correct and deter more crime by offering restorative justice at the point where abusive or sick behavior is first detected and BEFORE crimes are committed, while reserving retributive justice for those who refuse to get help in advance.
Potentially we could break the cycle of addiction abuse and crime by intervening and diagnosing danger signs early enough to prevent most crimes from escalating to violence.

We still need retributive justice for those who do not respond to counseling and corrections. But from what I have researched, restorative justice methods are far more effective at preventing and reducing crime and its costs by addressing the root causes.

Thanks for your help Huggy
Let's see if Bruce has more specific things to object to about Justice.

 

[thebrucebeat]

I don't take you seriously, nor liars like you.

you can shove your fruits up your ass.

Your wrong.
They are YOUR Fruits, if you are actually a Christian that cares even a little bit about the scriptures.
Why do you hate being held to the standards of the scripture you pretend to receive your faith from?
Obviously you don't have any interest in the bible as a guide for your behavior. You think Paul is some kind of ridiculously ignorant dreamer.
Why do you hate the bible?
Don't try to say you don't.
You aren't hating my words. I didn't write them.
They are your scriptures.

If you want Christians to change like that then maybe you ought to change yourself.

Don't you already have your guidebook?
This guy has already discarded me like I am trash.
Why should I be looked to for guidance?
Paul isn't good enough?

 

[AVG-JOE]

How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

I would be far more interested in hearing those who do believe in life after death, Heaven bound Christians among them, define and describe their expectations.

`​

Cool, me too!

So start a thread on it, why doncha?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/350435-define-heaven.html

 

[emilynghiem]

Congratulations; you plainly have the patience of Job.

Thanks Jim, you are being kind.

Imagine how much more so can be said of poor Bruce
who, without seeing any point at all in my messages he can make sense of,
is diligent enough to reply and explain intelligently the flaws he sees in my responses!

Either his patience is greater than mine,
or his "ulterior motives" -- I'm not sure which!

I reply to his message because I sense he has valid points
and can see he is more capable than I am of explaining them.

For him to reply when he doesn't see the same in me,
so much that he questions if I have some ulterior motive,
he has something greater going on!

Bruce if you don't mind elaborating, I would still very much prefer to hear what you see Jesus as representing, rather than vex and tax you with my guesses and theories.

Sorry for this! But I was really trying to draw out what you are thinking on your side.

If I have any additional motive, I am hoping that from intellectual exchanges between deists and nontheists, we might arrive at agreements on principles and concepts that DON'T rely on believing in or pushing belief in personified symbols of God or Jesus. But we can perfect language that describes universal concepts that make sense to both nontheists and Christian believers and others who struggle with these religious barriers.

So if I fail to describe Justice in a way that you recognize or relate to at all,
for sure, I want to know what your beliefs of Justice are.

If beliefs are universal then by definition all people should relate to them.

Most ppl I know relate to either retributive approaches to justice (rejection, judgment punishment to sever relations) or restorative justice (forgiveness correction restitution to restore relations). both these choices and paths are portrayed in the Bible in the OT (retributive approach by enforcing the letter of the law, which gets corrupted and leads to political abuse, war and genocide for control) and in the NT (restorative approach by focusing on the spirit of the law first where the letter follows after and both are reconciled). So that is why I ask what are ppl's view of Justice if I want to know which approach they relate to. And I find this is the parallel of what interpretation people have of Jesus, if they see the Lord as punitive and out to judge, divide and punish people; or if they see the Lord or Law as merciful and holding us to our own words actions and judgments, but with forgiveness where we have room to correct wrongs and make good.

I hope this clarifies things enough where you might reply more specifically.

You are clearly more objective and intelligent so I hope I do not disappoint or bore you.

Thank you Bruce
I look forward to reading more of your replies on this and other issues of law and justice.

Yours truly,
Emily

 

[thebrucebeat]

Let's see if Bruce has more specific things to object to about Justice.

What an impossibly foolish thing to say.
Where, anywhere, have I remotely suggested I "object" to justice?
Like I said before, I think the sweetness of tone of your posts is a cloak. You are being disingenuous.

 

[The Irish Ram]

We are this:

SANCTIFY
1 to set apart to a sacred purpose : consecrate
2 to free from sin : purify
3a to impart or impute sacredness, inviolability, or respect to
3b to give moral or social sanction to

Because Jesus Christ was this:

JUSTIFY
1 a to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable
b (1) to show to have had a sufficient legal reason
b (2) to qualify (oneself) as a surety by taking oath to the ownership of sufficient property
2a archaic to administer justice to
2b archaic absolve
2c to judge, regard, or treat as righteous and worthy of salvation
3b to make even by justifying
1a to show a sufficient lawful reason for an act done
1b to qualify as bail or surety


SURETY:
law : someone who agrees to be legally responsible if another person fails to pay a debt or to perform a duty
^
When Christ did that, it became just for God not to sentence us for the same crime. There is no double jeopardy in Heaven.
Christ's action on the cross, justifies God's commuting of our sentence. Our sins have already been judged and paid for. Our sentence was imposed on some one else.

God has no interest in visiting our sins again, and is just in remembering them no more.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I want to know what you think Heaven is like, Joe.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I see you take the Fruits very seriously.
Perhaps you use them as toilet paper.

I don't take you seriously, nor liars like you.

you can shove your fruits up your ass.

Your wrong.
They are YOUR Fruits, if you are actually a Christian that cares even a little bit about the scriptures.
Why do you hate being held to the standards of the scripture you pretend to receive your faith from?
Obviously you don't have any interest in the bible as a guide for your behavior. You think Paul is some kind of ridiculously ignorant dreamer.
Why do you hate the bible?
Don't try to say you don't.
You aren't hating my words. I didn't write them.
They are your scriptures.

You are nothing more than a troll trying to derail the thread.

Go play in traffic, child.

 

[JimBowie1958]

How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

I would be far more interested in hearing those who do believe in life after death, Heaven bound Christians among them, define and describe their expectations.

`​

Okay ... I'll bite. I may post some Scripture in the process but I'll try to make it short.

First of all, I believe that we will be transformed from flesh bodies to glorified, incorruptible bodies that are spiritual in nature:

1 Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Revelation 21:4, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

There will be 3 levels to Heaven. I don't know how each level differs from the others but I base my belief on this verse:

2 Corinthians 12:2, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven."

Heaven will reveal the "glory of God." I believe it will be a place of peace and tranquility and pure goodness. Lies and strife and hatred and evil will be non-existent.

Here's a pretty good description of Heaven: What is Heaven like?

But honestly, I don't think that any man can put into words what Heaven will truly be like. But I do believe in life after the death of our current body and that Heaven and Hell are literal places.

Our language is evolved to describe this world. I have little confidence in the ability of our language, therefore, to do an adequate job describing the next world.

I suspect that 'It's a wonderful place to be' is about as close as we can really get to the truth of the thing.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I don't take you seriously, nor liars like you.

you can shove your fruits up your ass.

Your wrong.
They are YOUR Fruits, if you are actually a Christian that cares even a little bit about the scriptures.
Why do you hate being held to the standards of the scripture you pretend to receive your faith from?
Obviously you don't have any interest in the bible as a guide for your behavior. You think Paul is some kind of ridiculously ignorant dreamer.
Why do you hate the bible?
Don't try to say you don't.
You aren't hating my words. I didn't write them.
They are your scriptures.

If you want Christians to change like that then maybe you ought to change yourself.

He doesn't want anything. He is just trolling and trying to derail the thread.

The fact that so many people who think of themselves as Christian and yet have no confidence that Heaven is a real place is what I was trying to get people to discuss. But like so many other threads, the atheists immediately pile in and try to shut everything down when they were not invited or asked.

Which is just another illustration of how desperate atheists are to shut down talk about anything to do with God. They fear Him so much and hate Him so much they don't want anyone discussing Him at all; the subject itself offends them as it strikes fear into their deepest consciousness BUT THEY CANT ADMIT TO IT.

I have no desire to participate in a discussion about Mormon tablets, or Budist re-incarnation, but I do want to participate in discussions regarding Social Security, the Federal Reserve, etc, because the last two subjects are real and a concern while I don't think the first ones are anything more than just made up, so I ignore the first and jump into the latter topics as most people do.

The atheists that jump into every discussion of God and the next life while claiming to not believe are in effect putting the lie to their own claims.

But when people claim to be Christian but don't believe that there is anything real about their faith, they are not just confused and showing it, they are confusing other people, particularly their own children. I think that is a major reason the main stream Protestant denominations are shrinking in membership so fast and losing so many members.

People want to believe in something they think may be actually real, not some 'faith system' that tacitly admits everyone is wasting their time.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Congratulations; you plainly have the patience of Job.

Thanks Jim, you are being kind.

Imagine how much more so can be said of poor Bruce
who, without seeing any point at all in my messages he can make sense of,
is diligent enough to reply and explain intelligently the flaws he sees in my responses!

Like I said before, I think the sweetness of tone of your posts is a cloak. You are being disingenuous.

Either his patience is greater than mine,
or his "ulterior motives" -- I'm not sure which!

I suspect that he is merely responding to you to derail the thread and amuse himself.

But its your time to waste, not mine, so have fun.

It is a shame that this thread will be diverted into another atheist ruin because those frauds cant shut the hell up and mind their own damned business.

But reading the responses of good souls like your own is refreshing and a reminder that the bruces of this world are a minority despite their verbosity.

I reply to his message because I sense he has valid points
and can see he is more capable than I am of explaining them.

I think you are imagining things.

What are the bullets for his valid points, in your opinion?

I think he is a jack ass with nothing more than wrecking the thread in his intentions.

 

[MrMax]

I don't take you seriously, nor liars like you.

you can shove your fruits up your ass.

Your wrong.
They are YOUR Fruits, if you are actually a Christian that cares even a little bit about the scriptures.
Why do you hate being held to the standards of the scripture you pretend to receive your faith from?
Obviously you don't have any interest in the bible as a guide for your behavior. You think Paul is some kind of ridiculously ignorant dreamer.
Why do you hate the bible?
Don't try to say you don't.
You aren't hating my words. I didn't write them.
They are your scriptures.

If you want Christians to change like that then maybe you ought to change yourself.

And if you want your neighbour to change the ugly color on their house, maybe you should just paint your own house?

 

[editec]

Jim, I have never heard of a protestant that didn't believe heaven was real or that the bible wasn't to be taken literally. What denomination is that?

MOST of them Jeremiah.

The fundamentalist Protestant sects are the minority not the majority.

The Fundies are just louder than the mainline churches.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Your wrong.
They are YOUR Fruits, if you are actually a Christian that cares even a little bit about the scriptures.
Why do you hate being held to the standards of the scripture you pretend to receive your faith from?
Obviously you don't have any interest in the bible as a guide for your behavior. You think Paul is some kind of ridiculously ignorant dreamer.
Why do you hate the bible?
Don't try to say you don't.
You aren't hating my words. I didn't write them.
They are your scriptures.

If you want Christians to change like that then maybe you ought to change yourself.

And if you want your neighbour to change the ugly color on their house, maybe you should just paint your own house?

Or mind your own damned business.