How Much of a Theist or Atheist are You?

[mamooth]

LOL. You should try saying such things into a mirror before posting them on the Internet for everyone to see. Hint: you can't have less than nothing.

Speaking of stupid things, that didn't address my post in any way. Why did you think it did?

Go on, explain to everyone what you meant by "You can't have less than nothing".

In contrast, my post was very clear. Absence of evidence can be evidence of absence, if you have enough of it.

For example, if someone tells me "Odin is a God who will strike you down if you curse him", and I curse Odin millions of times and I don't get struck down, I conclude the version of Odin as stated by the speaker does not exist. Why? Sheer repetition of absence of evidence.

We all use that logic in our everyday lives. Except, for some people, in the gods case.

 

[Divine Wind]

...For to me, God only wants us to love and seek him, and he really doesn't care what we think about all that other stuff. (And he doesn't mind that I find religious history fascinating and have spent a good deal of my adult life studying it as an avocation.)

Abraham is a bit more iffy--I am more reluctant to take him metaphorically though I can see a possibility that he represents several people, but I'm happy to take him at face value too. And Moses I am more reluctant to mess with.

Accolades to you as a teacher.

Disagreed on what God wants from us. That's a matter of interpretation.

If God wanted us to do something, is there any doubt the Almighty could have imprinted it upon our DNA or in the sky? So why the mystery? IMHO, it goes back to the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"

 

[Divine Wind]

...For example, if someone tells me "Odin is a God who will strike you down if you curse him", and I curse Odin millions of times and I don't get struck down, I conclude the version of Odin as stated by the speaker does not exist. Why? Sheer repetition of absence of evidence....

Conversely, that person's understanding of Odin is flawed. A person's flawed viewpoint doesn't mean anything about a third party.

Example; Most people here have mothers (I've giving you the benefit of the doubt. ) OJ's mother always believed he was innocent. Fine. Her beliefs are one thing and facts are another.

Likewise, one person's religious views, even if they are atheistic, are just their views. Unless they can prove those beliefs, they remain beliefs AKA opinions. All are free to have them...at least in this country.

 

[sealybobo]

We think this does harm us. From ISIS to the stupidity of christian voters. We think it has held civilization back thousands of years. Religion has been anti science for hundreds of years. And the attrocities. And then you try to say this is a Christian nation. No it is not. If you understood this isn't a Christian nation it's for all of us then I would back off. So don't wonder why atheists attack religions because they brainwash people.

And I don't do this in public. If you are here in this thread, you are asking to hear the truth. You don't see us spouting off on street corners telling anyone they'll go to hell if they believe, do you? You can't come on USMB and be a pussy.

I think religion is very harmful so I am encouraged to see that the internet has had a lot to do with turning people atheist. Our species will be far less gullible when it gives us delusions of grandure. And people will start looking to improve their here and now rather than cope with a shitty life waiting for an afterlife.

It is your christian nation that causes poor people to need thrift shops and soup kitchens. There wouldn't be a need for those things if us atheists ran things.

Science as a discipline was developed mostly by Christians, almost entirely by theists. I know no Christians who are anti-science in any form or fashion. Yes there is a small minority who rejects some popular scientific theory but they are a small minority and do not represent the large bulk of us. It is as dishonest to tar all Christians with that brush as it would be to tar all Atheists as 'little Marxists, Lenins or Stalins' who were Atheist.

Show me the Atheist organizations who have organized thrift shops, soup kitchens, ministries to the desperate poor, ministries to lepers, who have risked their lives to open the minds of the ignorant before you make religion a destructive force on Earth. Christians routinely do that all the time, often at great personal risk and sacrifice.

I am currently fund raising for a group who will travel to Peru this summer to deliver refurbished wheel chairs, walkers, crutches, and other helpful apparatus to the poorest of the disabled who cannot afford such things themselves. And yes, the group is Christian motivated by Christian teachings and values. I would go with them if I was physically able, but I am not.

Show me an Atheist nation where social justice is the norm and in which all the people have opportunity to prosper beyond bare existence. And all such nations have defacto dictatorships or totalitarian governments.

Tell me one way that my being a Christian harms you in any way.

It is your christian nation that causes poor people to need thrift shops and soup kitchens. There wouldn't be a need for those things if us atheists ran things.

Atheism requires self delusion, you prove the point.

Bull. We all know that god's favorite ISM is Capitalism, right? And capitalism only works if the masses are poor. Example, walmart can't survive paying a livable wage to all it's employees. And all the good paying union jobs went to China and Mexico. Why would they run from Capitalism? Huh?

The company can't have everyone be middle class and rich. We need to exploit poor people in order to make the rich richer. If I was wrong about this then capitalism would make sure everyone made a livable wage. But capitalists call that socialism. And it's not. Because I don't want to make that base living wage. The masses make that. Guys like me and you would make more than that just like we do now. Only difference is everyone at the company would make a livable wage. If that's not possible then Capitalism requires poor people.

How is it that all of the richest nations on earth that are able to take care of their poorest are all capitalist?

If you are so concerned about jobs maybe you should look in the mirror and see why companies are sending their jobs offshore.

Honestly, you have to go to a university to learn to be that naïve.

Ha! I'm going to Germany in October to tell my European, Chinese counterparts how I'm doing what their not. And my company pays well just like they pay their German workers well. Imagine that

 

[BreezeWood]

No, incorrect. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, if there's enough of it.

If A sometimes implies B, and B _never_ happens after zillions of observations, then logic says we should conclude A is wrong.

Everyone acts that way for most things in their life. Some people just make a special exception to that common sense rule for the matter of religion, which isn't logical.

But there isn't absence of evidence. There are more than 24,000 written manuscripts.

If I copy a Tarzan comic 25,000 times, is it more true than the bible?

You dismiss evidence of a historical event for no good reason or basis.

The historical events of the bible, including what Jesus is supposed to have said, were dated to be several generations after the facts. And those were just fragments, most of it is dated much later. If anyone comes up with anything dated within jesus' lifetime, you could possibly have something. So it's a really good reason. Too bad for you, clown.

The earliest writing we have about Alex the Great is 400 years after his death. So what's your point?

.

The earliest writing we have about Alex the Great is 400 years after his death. So what's your point?

the events of the 1st century were an open and spoken religion, progressively by the literature that culminated in the late 4th century the earlier 1st century truths were subordinated by the political agenda of the late 4th century and enshrined in the christian 4th century bible.

 

[sealybobo]

Which is why agnostic is the only thinking person's position, because absence of evidence isn't evidence. It's faith.

No, incorrect. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, if there's enough of it.

If A sometimes implies B, and B _never_ happens after zillions of observations, then logic says we should conclude A is wrong.

Everyone acts that way for most things in their life. Some people just make a special exception to that common sense rule for the matter of religion, which isn't logical.

But there isn't absence of evidence. There are more than 24,000 written manuscripts.

25,000 after I post this

Atheism and secularism correlate highly with the well-being of individuals and societies by almost every possible measure.

Atheism is correlated with better scientific literacy [2][3], lower poverty rates, higher literacy rates, higher average incomes, less violence, lower divorce rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower STD infection rates, lower crime rates and lower homicide rates.

Irreligion by Country, Democracy Index, Education Index, Economic freedom, Overall Human Development.

Atheism is correlated with higher intelligence: Source 1 Source 2 Source 3 Source 4Source 5 Source 6 Source 7 Source 8 Source 9.

See also: Epiphenom – The Science of Religion and Non-Belief

“I know of no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too desirous of evidence in support of their core beliefs.” – Sam Harris

What does that have to do with the historical evidence for Jesus Christ?

Embellishment

 

[sealybobo]

More Than 50% of Americans Would Vote for an Atheist Presidential Candidate — But Would You?

in 1958, only 18 percent of Americans said they’d vote for a secularist. Over the past five decades, we’ve seen steady growth, though, with more than half of Americans now reporting the same.

And no coincidence that the Presidents of the past few decades have been among the worst ever.

You make the case for Christian Presidents.

Sorry, but disagree on the "causal" factor. Human society has been evolving and changing for all of recorded history. The only thing that is certain is that those who constantly view life through a rear view mirror are wrong.

George Santayana's famous quote applies, but we, as a species, must continue to move forward. No, I don't agree with every idea the "liberals" offer, but I also don't agree with every idea offered by the "conservatives"/Tories.

It's natural for our species to advance by taking two steps forward and one step back. That concept was clearly understood by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis in his view "state may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country."

Laboratories of democracy - Wikipedia

There is no question civilization is imploding. None. Within 50 years the world will be a Mad Max movie in real life unless something drastic occurs to alter the direction.

People been saying that for ten thousand years.

But if the bees disappear and we over fish the oceans.

Maybe for a few years we only allow rich people to have kids and thin the herd that way.

 

[sealybobo]

They get all agitated at the silliest things. Part of the insecurity issue.

I'm not insecure. You know who's insecure? Theists. When I try to tell my dad or brother there is no god boy do they get defensive. And I am not even allowed to suggest it to my nephew. I guess the brainwashing isn't complete at 15 years old.

Not insecure? Then why would you feel compelled to tell a theist that there is no God? What prompts those who try to destroy the faith of somebody who takes comfort in that faith? Who finds value in that faith?

What sort of evil prompts somebody to take away that which harms the Atheist in no fashion whatsoever, but others value and cherish?

You hit the nail on the head. A Christian talks to others about his/her faith because it is great news to all. The only reason an atheist has for going around berating people for being Christian is their insecurity. There is absolutely no downside to being a Christian, only upsides even if the entire Jesus thing was a fabrication 2,000 years ago.

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Ingersoll was exactly right. Without a higher being holding him up to high standards of how he must attempt to live his life, he is free to be as narcissistic, evil, and uncaring as he wishes without feeling a bit of remorse or concern about it. He can whatever he pleases simply based up if he thinks the law will catch him or not.

I don't need a god to keep me in line. I don't cheat, steal, lie much, murder, not a racist much, etc. I'm better that 90% of you mofos

 

[sealybobo]

Imagine a god looking down on a good atheist and dick head Christian and choosing the dick just because he believes.

That's cult talk

 

[sealybobo]

We think this does harm us. From ISIS to the stupidity of christian voters. We think it has held civilization back thousands of years. Religion has been anti science for hundreds of years. And the attrocities. And then you try to say this is a Christian nation. No it is not. If you understood this isn't a Christian nation it's for all of us then I would back off. So don't wonder why atheists attack religions because they brainwash people.

And I don't do this in public. If you are here in this thread, you are asking to hear the truth. You don't see us spouting off on street corners telling anyone they'll go to hell if they believe, do you? You can't come on USMB and be a pussy.

I think religion is very harmful so I am encouraged to see that the internet has had a lot to do with turning people atheist. Our species will be far less gullible when it gives us delusions of grandure. And people will start looking to improve their here and now rather than cope with a shitty life waiting for an afterlife.

It is your christian nation that causes poor people to need thrift shops and soup kitchens. There wouldn't be a need for those things if us atheists ran things.

Science as a discipline was developed mostly by Christians, almost entirely by theists. I know no Christians who are anti-science in any form or fashion. Yes there is a small minority who rejects some popular scientific theory but they are a small minority and do not represent the large bulk of us. It is as dishonest to tar all Christians with that brush as it would be to tar all Atheists as 'little Marxists, Lenins or Stalins' who were Atheist.

Show me the Atheist organizations who have organized thrift shops, soup kitchens, ministries to the desperate poor, ministries to lepers, who have risked their lives to open the minds of the ignorant before you make religion a destructive force on Earth. Christians routinely do that all the time, often at great personal risk and sacrifice.

I am currently fund raising for a group who will travel to Peru this summer to deliver refurbished wheel chairs, walkers, crutches, and other helpful apparatus to the poorest of the disabled who cannot afford such things themselves. And yes, the group is Christian motivated by Christian teachings and values. I would go with them if I was physically able, but I am not.

Show me an Atheist nation where social justice is the norm and in which all the people have opportunity to prosper beyond bare existence. And all such nations have defacto dictatorships or totalitarian governments.

Tell me one way that my being a Christian harms you in any way.

It is your christian nation that causes poor people to need thrift shops and soup kitchens. There wouldn't be a need for those things if us atheists ran things.

Atheism requires self delusion, you prove the point.

Bull. We all know that god's favorite ISM is Capitalism, right? And capitalism only works if the masses are poor. Example, walmart can't survive paying a livable wage to all it's employees. And all the good paying union jobs went to China and Mexico. Why would they run from Capitalism? Huh?

The company can't have everyone be middle class and rich. We need to exploit poor people in order to make the rich richer. If I was wrong about this then capitalism would make sure everyone made a livable wage. But capitalists call that socialism. And it's not. Because I don't want to make that base living wage. The masses make that. Guys like me and you would make more than that just like we do now. Only difference is everyone at the company would make a livable wage. If that's not possible then Capitalism requires poor people.

How is it that all of the richest nations on earth that are able to take care of their poorest are all capitalist?

If you are so concerned about jobs maybe you should look in the mirror and see why companies are sending their jobs offshore.

Honestly, you have to go to a university to learn to be that naïve.

You can but will you continue to? Will you make more people poor? I believe you will

 

[sealybobo]

Hopefully I survive the next Republican crash that they'll blame Obama for

 

[ding]

Which is why agnostic is the only thinking person's position, because absence of evidence isn't evidence. It's faith.

No, incorrect. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, if there's enough of it.

If A sometimes implies B, and B _never_ happens after zillions of observations, then logic says we should conclude A is wrong.

Everyone acts that way for most things in their life. Some people just make a special exception to that common sense rule for the matter of religion, which isn't logical.

But there isn't absence of evidence. There are more than 24,000 written manuscripts.

25,000 after I post this

Atheism and secularism correlate highly with the well-being of individuals and societies by almost every possible measure.

Atheism is correlated with better scientific literacy [2][3], lower poverty rates, higher literacy rates, higher average incomes, less violence, lower divorce rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower STD infection rates, lower crime rates and lower homicide rates.

Irreligion by Country, Democracy Index, Education Index, Economic freedom, Overall Human Development.

Atheism is correlated with higher intelligence: Source 1 Source 2 Source 3 Source 4Source 5 Source 6 Source 7 Source 8 Source 9.

See also: Epiphenom – The Science of Religion and Non-Belief

“I know of no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too desirous of evidence in support of their core beliefs.” – Sam Harris

What does that have to do with the historical evidence for Jesus Christ?

Embellishment

Seriously? That's your response?

Sources for Caesar and Jesus Compared

Eyewitness to Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence about the Origin of the Gospels - Christian Research Institute

The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts

 

[ding]

Hopefully I survive the next Republican crash that they'll blame Obama for

That's pretty funny considering that for over a decade Democrats blamed George Bush when it rained.

 

[ding]

Imagine a god looking down on a good atheist and dick head Christian and choosing the dick just because he believes.

That's cult talk

Not as funny as you discussing something you don't believe.

 

[ding]

I'm not insecure. You know who's insecure? Theists. When I try to tell my dad or brother there is no god boy do they get defensive. And I am not even allowed to suggest it to my nephew. I guess the brainwashing isn't complete at 15 years old.

Not insecure? Then why would you feel compelled to tell a theist that there is no God? What prompts those who try to destroy the faith of somebody who takes comfort in that faith? Who finds value in that faith?

What sort of evil prompts somebody to take away that which harms the Atheist in no fashion whatsoever, but others value and cherish?

You hit the nail on the head. A Christian talks to others about his/her faith because it is great news to all. The only reason an atheist has for going around berating people for being Christian is their insecurity. There is absolutely no downside to being a Christian, only upsides even if the entire Jesus thing was a fabrication 2,000 years ago.

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Ingersoll was exactly right. Without a higher being holding him up to high standards of how he must attempt to live his life, he is free to be as narcissistic, evil, and uncaring as he wishes without feeling a bit of remorse or concern about it. He can whatever he pleases simply based up if he thinks the law will catch him or not.

I don't need a god to keep me in line. I don't cheat, steal, lie much, murder, not a racist much, etc. I'm better that 90% of you mofos

Only a good man knows just how bad he is. A bad man doesn't have a clue.

 

[ding]

Which is why agnostic is the only thinking person's position, because absence of evidence isn't evidence. It's faith.

No, incorrect. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, if there's enough of it.

If A sometimes implies B, and B _never_ happens after zillions of observations, then logic says we should conclude A is wrong.

Everyone acts that way for most things in their life. Some people just make a special exception to that common sense rule for the matter of religion, which isn't logical.

But there isn't absence of evidence. There are more than 24,000 written manuscripts.

If I copy a Tarzan comic 25,000 times, is it more true than the bible?

You dismiss evidence of a historical event for no good reason or basis.

The historical events of the bible, including what Jesus is supposed to have said, were dated to be several generations after the facts. And those were just fragments, most of it is dated much later. If anyone comes up with anything dated within jesus' lifetime, you could possibly have something. So it's a really good reason. Too bad for you, clown.

Like I said before, you dismiss evidence of a historical event for no good reason or basis.

 

[Foxfyre]

...For to me, God only wants us to love and seek him, and he really doesn't care what we think about all that other stuff. (And he doesn't mind that I find religious history fascinating and have spent a good deal of my adult life studying it as an avocation.)

Abraham is a bit more iffy--I am more reluctant to take him metaphorically though I can see a possibility that he represents several people, but I'm happy to take him at face value too. And Moses I am more reluctant to mess with.

Accolades to you as a teacher.

Disagreed on what God wants from us. That's a matter of interpretation.

If God wanted us to do something, is there any doubt the Almighty could have imprinted it upon our DNA or in the sky? So why the mystery? IMHO, it goes back to the ultimate question: "Why are we here?"

I think each one of us has a purpose and we are given different gifts and ministries to accomplish it. The happiest people are the ones who do.

 

[Mudda]

But there isn't absence of evidence. There are more than 24,000 written manuscripts.

Well we have to be intellectually honest though and admit that those manuscripts were written by human beings as testimony to the living God. We have nothing that was literally penned by a deity.

But I have to smile at those posting writings by famous Atheists as being somehow authoritative on the subject when those 24,000 or however many there are manuscripts written by famous Christians are summarily dismissed as delusional fiction.

So if people copy a Justin Bieber song 4,000,000 times, is he bigger than god?

Are there really that many people who like a Justin Bieber song?

The last time I looked it up, at least 6 billion and counting Bibles have been printed. Bieber isn't anywhere close to being in the same league.,

Factoid: the longest word in the Bible is Mahershalalhashbaz. You'll find it in the Book of Isaiah.

The English word for that is Motherfuckingdouchebag. I think.

But the point is, you can copy something 80 billion times, it still doesn't make it true on that fact alone.

I understand. But if millions of people testify to an experience, whether or not we know how to test to verify or falsify that experience scientifically, it seems to me that it is more reasonable to believe the people had that experience than to deny that it happened because it hasn't happened to us.

Total mass hysteria, with a heavy sprinkling of wishful thinking and a complete lack of objectivity, never mind that these people always seem to be at the lower end of the intelligence scale.. It still doesn't make god true, it's a decent theory that needs to be explored more. Just like re-incarnation, there are so many stories about people knowing things in places they've never been... who can play instruments perfectly... But it hasn't been scientifically proven, so I'm of the opinion that for me, it's a very plausible scenario, and a the most likely, but i would never claim it as proven fact, because objectively, it isn't, no matter what my personal opinion might be about it.

 

[Mudda]

No, incorrect. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, if there's enough of it.

If A sometimes implies B, and B _never_ happens after zillions of observations, then logic says we should conclude A is wrong.

Everyone acts that way for most things in their life. Some people just make a special exception to that common sense rule for the matter of religion, which isn't logical.

But there isn't absence of evidence. There are more than 24,000 written manuscripts.

If I copy a Tarzan comic 25,000 times, is it more true than the bible?

You dismiss evidence of a historical event for no good reason or basis.

The historical events of the bible, including what Jesus is supposed to have said, were dated to be several generations after the facts. And those were just fragments, most of it is dated much later. If anyone comes up with anything dated within jesus' lifetime, you could possibly have something. So it's a really good reason. Too bad for you, clown.

The earliest writing we have about Alex the Great is 400 years after his death. So what's your point?

The point is that you have no idea if the accounts of Alex the Great are factual. Unless there is other real evidence of his life.

 

[Mudda]

No, incorrect. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, if there's enough of it.

If A sometimes implies B, and B _never_ happens after zillions of observations, then logic says we should conclude A is wrong.

Everyone acts that way for most things in their life. Some people just make a special exception to that common sense rule for the matter of religion, which isn't logical.

But there isn't absence of evidence. There are more than 24,000 written manuscripts.

If I copy a Tarzan comic 25,000 times, is it more true than the bible?

You dismiss evidence of a historical event for no good reason or basis.

The historical events of the bible, including what Jesus is supposed to have said, were dated to be several generations after the facts. And those were just fragments, most of it is dated much later. If anyone comes up with anything dated within jesus' lifetime, you could possibly have something. So it's a really good reason. Too bad for you, clown.

Like I said before, you dismiss evidence of a historical event for no good reason or basis.

Like I said before, your critical thinking is severly impaired.