How To Have A Productive Discussion

[Correll]

And it is beyond your comprehension that I could disagree with you, without, being a bad person, or that you could make your arguments for your position without personally attacking me.


That was my point, and you just proved it.


Thanks.


And normally, you liberals are MORE insulting than you were right there.

I did not insult you. I'm just being honest and telling you what you are Correll.

Like I said, the idea of disagreeing on matters of policy and issues without including personal insults is literally incomprehensible to you.


As this is common among so called "liberals", productive discussions are nearly impossible.

Truth hurts you Correll? This is not about liberals or conservative Correll----- This is about common sense and what is right for Americans.

Again our last discussion we had was NAFTA and Trade deficits. I explained to you the consequences if NAFTA and Trade deficits failed.
Because you have zero intelligence rebuttal ------- YOU RESPONDED ------- YOU ARE WILLING TO PAY THE HIGH $ PRICE JUST BECAUSE OF TRUMP.

( I really hate to mention this but ) ----- How fucking stupid is that?
So tell me how am I supposed to deal with you? Or respond to you?
Tell me. I really wanted to know.
Tell me please. Where I'm wrong?

NOte, how to prove that my point about liberals being unable to disagree on matters of policy without including personal insults,


you cite a previous policy disagreement and personally insult me.

Truth hurts. Instead of standing with your unreasonable ground ---- As a man why not just say admit it's an error on your part or you just don't understand the Trade deficits or NAFTA. Not just blanketly saying ------ You will pay for the high $ price across the board just because of Trump. Since when that is acceptable? How about the poor Americans that are suffering right now trying to get by? Is that acceptable?


I made a mistake in supporting ANTIFA and I admitted it as lack on my part for not researching. That is called INTEGRITY.

It's not an error that I want better jobs for working class Americans, and am willing to pay higher consumer prices if that is the cost.

 

[danielpalos]

Been there done that, too often. Schopenhauer has a article on how to win an argument and it covers the usual stuff. My favorite is equivalency, simply compare one action to another and you've won. Not sure if Arthur has that one, but it must be there. Another favorite author of mine is Stanley Fish, "What you believe is what you see is what you know is what you do is what you are." See his piece below, there is no use asking that posters follow any rule or guideline. People aren't made that way. Oh and look up Agnotology sometime, it's all around us today on tough topics.


This is from some time ago. And you know that how?


"Liberals and progressives have been slow to realize that their preferred vocabulary has been hijacked and that when they respond to once - hallowed phrases they are responding to a ghost now animated by a new machine, The point is not a small one, for in any debate, especially one fought in the arena of public opinion, the battle is won not by knock - down arguments but by the party that succeeds in placing its own spin on the terms presiding over the discussion. That's what the conservatives in and out of Congress have managed to do with old war horses like "individual" and so long as they are allowed to get away with it, the opposition will spend its time insisting that it too is for the individual or for color-blindness or equal opportunity - and before we know it all the plovers will be dead and all the subcontractors will once again be white." Stanley Fish, 'The Trouble with Principle' (How the Right Hijacked the Magic Words)


I'm reading 'The Twilight of Common Dreams: Why America Is Wracked by Culture Wars' by Todd Gitlin, amazing the power money and especially corporate money has on debate and thought. 'Dark Money' is an excellent read too, but I am getting off topic.


"Reasoning is generally seen as a means to improve knowledge and make better decisions. However, much evidence shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions. This suggests that the function of reasoning should be rethought. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived is adaptive given the exceptional dependence of humans on communication and their vulnerability to misinformation." Why Do Humans Reason? Arguments for an Argumentative Theory by Hugo Mercier, Dan Sperber :: SSRN

I believe the right wing should have had a health care plan to replace what they perceived to be a flawed democrat; and, should have provided "proof" that their plan was, "at least ten percent better."

 

[danielpalos]

Been there done that, too often. Schopenhauer has a article on how to win an argument ...N

And the leftist reads "have a productive discussion" and sees "how to win an argument".


Also, a lefty complaining about spin or redefining words?

End our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror, right wingers, to end our income tax.

 

[monkrules]

Basically a productive discussion requires a respect for someone else's right to express their opinion, however base or misguided it may be. Not that you agree with a single word that was written, but the other person has a perfect right to post whatever they want, subject of course to the USMB rules. And there's no doubt there are many base and misguided posts around here, so I think first of all we've got to make a determination up front if you want to have a productive discussion:

First, is the post worth responding to. Most of the time you can tell when a post or thread is not intended to start a productive discussion but instead is an invitation to a verbal fight. No doubt the mods will eventually delete the post or find the thread and move it to a more suitable environment, but is it worth your time?

Then you've got to decide if the post has any salient points that you want to expand on or oppose, and if it does then make your response. But - do so without insulting the post or the poster. Calling somebody an idiot or characterizing their post as garbage is hardly the way to engender an intelligent discussion. If you find yourself fighting the urge to say exactly that then the chances are you're better off not responding at all IF your intention is to engage in a meaningful discussion. Be calm, be rational, be logical, and be cogent.

A productive discussion is worth having; it's challenging and you learn stuff. Nothing wrong though with a good old-fashioned verbal bar room brawl where the insults fly. It's kinda fun to read in the proper setting, I'm not creative or mean enough to do it well myself, but I do appreciate the talent that some around here have in that regard.

Great post. I've copied it so I can re-read it once in a while. I even placed it on my Desktop next to the Bronco's '17 schedule so I'll remember to do so.

I'm still new here but I find myself doing all the negative things that have been mentioned in this thread so far. It's hard to be insulted and not instantly fire back. Reason tells me that the bigger man would just walk away rather than engage in a verbal shouting match with a partisan lunatic, but it's hard to do.

There are loads of posts in which only insults exist: the left is always looking for more free stuff... liberals are destroying the country... or... right wing imbeciles lack the brains of gnat... trump supporters suck shit... You get the idea. That's not exactly the way to begin a reasonable conversation. It's sad that so many people are totally unable to see how ridiculous and extreme their own partisan ideas are. I wonder how many people read their own posts. And I wonder if they have the intelligence to be embarrassed after they've written and posted some of the more nonsensical and hateful stuff.

I make quick use of the Ignore feature and that has really helped improve the forum. But there's one weird thing I've seen: the very worst offenders, the people with the most disgusting language and insults, are forever trashing anyone who uses an Ignore list, calling them cowards and much worse. Some of them even follow those who have placed them on Ignore around the site, still shouting insults that will not even be seen. How pathetic is that? It would be laughable if it weren't so sad. If these people were not so offensive there would be no need for an Ignore list. Lol... My conclusion is that they trash other people this way because they can't stand the thought that other members find them so disgusting and repulsive that they don't want to be around them.

 

[monkrules]

(1) State facts
(2) State opinions, BUT, specify that it is your opinion (explaining why is helpful)
(3) State evidences and supports to your statements
...lastly

(4) DON'T MAKE ANYTHING PERSONAL OR NEGATIVE!... why? because it puts the person on the defensive and then the discussion goes off the rails.

It might not be as much fun, but you might actually get somewhere!

I admire your effort to improve the level of conversation here, Bonzi. Are you the person they’re talking about when people mention an Eternal Optimist?

Reading through a few insult-riddled threads, one might conclude that the only way to really improve the forum would be to impose a minimum IQ of say, 65 or so, for membership. Of course that wouldn’t fly because it would instantly decrease our membership by about a third.

But I’ve recently seen a couple of posts covering this idea, so maybe there’s still hope. Lol...

 

[Bonzi]

(1) State facts
(2) State opinions, BUT, specify that it is your opinion (explaining why is helpful)
(3) State evidences and supports to your statements
...lastly

(4) DON'T MAKE ANYTHING PERSONAL OR NEGATIVE!... why? because it puts the person on the defensive and then the discussion goes off the rails.

It might not be as much fun, but you might actually get somewhere!

I admire your effort to improve the level of conversation here, Bonzi. Are you the person they’re talking about when people mention an Eternal Optimist?

Reading through a few insult-riddled threads, one might conclude that the only way to really improve the forum would be to impose a minimum IQ of say, 65 or so, for membership. Of course that wouldn’t fly because it would instantly decrease our membership by about a third.

But I’ve recently seen a couple of posts covering this idea, so maybe there’s still hope. Lol...

Naw, I'm not trying to improve anything, but, maybe there are a few here that at least might consider it... then again....

I actually am an Eternal Optimist, however, I do not thing anyone HERE would say that about me....

 

[ChrisL]

(1) State facts
(2) State opinions, BUT, specify that it is your opinion (explaining why is helpful)
(3) State evidences and supports to your statements
...lastly

(4) DON'T MAKE ANYTHING PERSONAL OR NEGATIVE!... why? because it puts the person on the defensive and then the discussion goes off the rails.

It might not be as much fun, but you might actually get somewhere!

I admire your effort to improve the level of conversation here, Bonzi. Are you the person they’re talking about when people mention an Eternal Optimist?

Reading through a few insult-riddled threads, one might conclude that the only way to really improve the forum would be to impose a minimum IQ of say, 65 or so, for membership. Of course that wouldn’t fly because it would instantly decrease our membership by about a third.

But I’ve recently seen a couple of posts covering this idea, so maybe there’s still hope. Lol...

Naw, I'm not trying to improve anything, but, maybe there are a few here that at least might consider it... then again....

I actually am an Eternal Optimist, however, I do not thing anyone HERE would say that about me....

Lol! Considering some of your past posts, I am very skeptical to say the least. In fact, this is so ridiculously hypocritical, it is just funny.

 

[task0778]

Basically a productive discussion requires a respect for someone else's right to express their opinion, however base or misguided it may be. Not that you agree with a single word that was written, but the other person has a perfect right to post whatever they want, subject of course to the USMB rules. And there's no doubt there are many base and misguided posts around here, so I think first of all we've got to make a determination up front if you want to have a productive discussion:

First, is the post worth responding to. Most of the time you can tell when a post or thread is not intended to start a productive discussion but instead is an invitation to a verbal fight. No doubt the mods will eventually delete the post or find the thread and move it to a more suitable environment, but is it worth your time?

Then you've got to decide if the post has any salient points that you want to expand on or oppose, and if it does then make your response. But - do so without insulting the post or the poster. Calling somebody an idiot or characterizing their post as garbage is hardly the way to engender an intelligent discussion. If you find yourself fighting the urge to say exactly that then the chances are you're better off not responding at all IF your intention is to engage in a meaningful discussion. Be calm, be rational, be logical, and be cogent.

A productive discussion is worth having; it's challenging and you learn stuff. Nothing wrong though with a good old-fashioned verbal bar room brawl where the insults fly. It's kinda fun to read in the proper setting, I'm not creative or mean enough to do it well myself, but I do appreciate the talent that some around here have in that regard.

Great post. I've copied it so I can re-read it once in a while. I even placed it on my Desktop next to the Bronco's '17 schedule so I'll remember to do so.

I'm still new here but I find myself doing all the negative things that have been mentioned in this thread so far. It's hard to be insulted and not instantly fire back. Reason tells me that the bigger man would just walk away rather than engage in a verbal shouting match with a partisan lunatic, but it's hard to do.

There are loads of posts in which only insults exist: the left is always looking for more free stuff... liberals are destroying the country... or... right wing imbeciles lack the brains of gnat... trump supporters suck shit... You get the idea. That's not exactly the way to begin a reasonable conversation. It's sad that so many people are totally unable to see how ridiculous and extreme their own partisan ideas are. I wonder how many people read their own posts. And I wonder if they have the intelligence to be embarrassed after they've written and posted some of the more nonsensical and hateful stuff.

I make quick use of the Ignore feature and that has really helped improve the forum. But there's one weird thing I've seen: the very worst offenders, the people with the most disgusting language and insults, are forever trashing anyone who uses an Ignore list, calling them cowards and much worse. Some of them even follow those who have placed them on Ignore around the site, still shouting insults that will not even be seen. How pathetic is that? It would be laughable if it weren't so sad. If these people were not so offensive there would be no need for an Ignore list. Lol... My conclusion is that they trash other people this way because they can't stand the thought that other members find them so disgusting and repulsive that they don't want to be around them.

There are many people on this board who enjoy and prefer an intelligent discussion, even with somebody they disagree with. And there are some who just want to get into a verbal fight cuz they enjoy the competition to see who wins. And of course the ideologues and the misanthropes who just want to pee in somebody else's corn flakes. If you want free speech then you have to allow everybody to have their say as long as they abide by whatever the rules are for the venue they're in. Doesn't mean you or I have to listen or read whatever they post though, there are many around here that just aren't worth the time, trouble, and aggravation to even look at what they've said, let alone respond to it. So, for those of you who don't get responses to your posts, maybe it's because your post wasn't worth the effort.

 

[monkrules]

Basically a productive discussion requires a respect for someone else's right to express their opinion, however base or misguided it may be. Not that you agree with a single word that was written, but the other person has a perfect right to post whatever they want, subject of course to the USMB rules. And there's no doubt there are many base and misguided posts around here, so I think first of all we've got to make a determination up front if you want to have a productive discussion:

First, is the post worth responding to. Most of the time you can tell when a post or thread is not intended to start a productive discussion but instead is an invitation to a verbal fight. No doubt the mods will eventually delete the post or find the thread and move it to a more suitable environment, but is it worth your time?

Then you've got to decide if the post has any salient points that you want to expand on or oppose, and if it does then make your response. But - do so without insulting the post or the poster. Calling somebody an idiot or characterizing their post as garbage is hardly the way to engender an intelligent discussion. If you find yourself fighting the urge to say exactly that then the chances are you're better off not responding at all IF your intention is to engage in a meaningful discussion. Be calm, be rational, be logical, and be cogent.

A productive discussion is worth having; it's challenging and you learn stuff. Nothing wrong though with a good old-fashioned verbal bar room brawl where the insults fly. It's kinda fun to read in the proper setting, I'm not creative or mean enough to do it well myself, but I do appreciate the talent that some around here have in that regard.

Great post. I've copied it so I can re-read it once in a while. I even placed it on my Desktop next to the Bronco's '17 schedule so I'll remember to do so.

I'm still new here but I find myself doing all the negative things that have been mentioned in this thread so far. It's hard to be insulted and not instantly fire back. Reason tells me that the bigger man would just walk away rather than engage in a verbal shouting match with a partisan lunatic, but it's hard to do.

There are loads of posts in which only insults exist: the left is always looking for more free stuff... liberals are destroying the country... or... right wing imbeciles lack the brains of gnat... trump supporters suck shit... You get the idea. That's not exactly the way to begin a reasonable conversation. It's sad that so many people are totally unable to see how ridiculous and extreme their own partisan ideas are. I wonder how many people read their own posts. And I wonder if they have the intelligence to be embarrassed after they've written and posted some of the more nonsensical and hateful stuff.

I make quick use of the Ignore feature and that has really helped improve the forum. But there's one weird thing I've seen: the very worst offenders, the people with the most disgusting language and insults, are forever trashing anyone who uses an Ignore list, calling them cowards and much worse. Some of them even follow those who have placed them on Ignore around the site, still shouting insults that will not even be seen. How pathetic is that? It would be laughable if it weren't so sad. If these people were not so offensive there would be no need for an Ignore list. Lol... My conclusion is that they trash other people this way because they can't stand the thought that other members find them so disgusting and repulsive that they don't want to be around them.

There are many people on this board who enjoy and prefer an intelligent discussion, even with somebody they disagree with. And there are some who just want to get into a verbal fight cuz they enjoy the competition to see who wins. And of course the ideologues and the misanthropes who just want to pee in somebody else's corn flakes. If you want free speech then you have to allow everybody to have their say as long as they abide by whatever the rules are for the venue they're in. Doesn't mean you or I have to listen or read whatever they post though, there are many around here that just aren't worth the time, trouble, and aggravation to even look at what they've said, let alone respond to it. So, for those of you who don't get responses to your posts, maybe it's because your post wasn't worth the effort.

Our senseless verbal food fights may have inspired the creation of our treasured Ignore feature.

 

[Bonzi]

Well I have multiple personality disorder...

No she doesn't!!

 

[task0778]

Well I have multiple personality disorder...

No she doesn't!!

Good Bonzi, Bad Bonzi?

 

[danielpalos]

I just ask women (on Criagslist) if they want to come over and see if I feel like their next boyfriend.

 

[ChrisL]

Well I have multiple personality disorder...

No she doesn't!!

 

[charwin95]

I did not insult you. I'm just being honest and telling you what you are Correll.

Like I said, the idea of disagreeing on matters of policy and issues without including personal insults is literally incomprehensible to you.


As this is common among so called "liberals", productive discussions are nearly impossible.

Truth hurts you Correll? This is not about liberals or conservative Correll----- This is about common sense and what is right for Americans.

Again our last discussion we had was NAFTA and Trade deficits. I explained to you the consequences if NAFTA and Trade deficits failed.
Because you have zero intelligence rebuttal ------- YOU RESPONDED ------- YOU ARE WILLING TO PAY THE HIGH $ PRICE JUST BECAUSE OF TRUMP.

( I really hate to mention this but ) ----- How fucking stupid is that?
So tell me how am I supposed to deal with you? Or respond to you?
Tell me. I really wanted to know.
Tell me please. Where I'm wrong?

NOte, how to prove that my point about liberals being unable to disagree on matters of policy without including personal insults,


you cite a previous policy disagreement and personally insult me.

Truth hurts. Instead of standing with your unreasonable ground ---- As a man why not just say admit it's an error on your part or you just don't understand the Trade deficits or NAFTA. Not just blanketly saying ------ You will pay for the high $ price across the board just because of Trump. Since when that is acceptable? How about the poor Americans that are suffering right now trying to get by? Is that acceptable?


I made a mistake in supporting ANTIFA and I admitted it as lack on my part for not researching. That is called INTEGRITY.

It's not an error that I want better jobs for working class Americans, and am willing to pay higher consumer prices if that is the cost.

This just show you have no clue of what you are saying.
There are already millions of jobs here in America depending or created by NAFTA. As I said repeatedly over and over to you --------- The collapse of NAFTA will trigger a high cost all over across the board. *NOT* CREATING MORE AMERICAN JOBS.
What made you think collapse of NAFTA will create more American jobs?
Trump created ( Lie to be exact) a scenario that we are the losers----- How about businesses and farmers and workers that we put out of business in Mexico because of NAFTA?
If NAFTA is bad or unfair the way Trump lied. Then the economy should not be this good. A lot of American business or farmers should be close. Don't you think?

 

[Bonzi]

Well I have multiple personality disorder...

No she doesn't!!

Good Bonzi, Bad Bonzi?

one never knows.....