How we know Hitler was right wing.

[bigrebnc1775]

Right, right, right...Hitler called it the National Socialist Worker's (socialist buzzword) Party, but wasn't really a socialist, because navel contemplating socialists like you know so much better, 70 years later, who is and isn't a socialist and how to define the term.

Actually, historians connecte with the Nazi Party as far back as the 1930's confirm that Hitler was not a Socialist in the Marxist sense of the word.

Hidrebrand is one of the most prominent, although anyone who has had read Heidigger will know this as well. There are probably another half-dozen right wing historians of the time who say the same thing.

All of this is reported in Michael Marris's 'Nazi Dictatorship'.

A wide-ranging synthesis of historical writing on the Jewish Holocaust, covering the contributions of Israeli, American and European scholars on all aspects of the subject. Individual chapters deal with Jewish resistance, the collaboration or otherwise of non-Jewish populations in countries occupied by the Nazis, the progress of the final solution and the role of the Catholic Church. Steering a course between widely divergent interpretations, Marrus argues strongly in favour of an understanding of Hitler, Nazism and the Holocaust, as well as of the Jews themselves. He sees them operating in response to events and opportunities, and attacks views of the period that rely on the spurious wisdom of hindsight.

[ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Holocaust-In-History-Michael-Marrus/dp/0297794914/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1363966350&sr=8-2]Holocaust In History: Amazon.co.uk: Michael R. Marrus: Books[/ame]


btw. I am NOT a socialist. Please try and understand that.

Hitler used socialism in the authoritarian sense Hitler joined a small group of socialist that will later be known as the german workers socialist party

 

[Saigon]

BriPat -

What part of "we are enemies of the capitalistic economic system" don't I understand? How have I misinterpreted "we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions?" Please explain. I'm dying to know how anyone interprets this to mean Hitler endorsed capitalism.

Start with where Hitler said this, and to who - and particularly WHEN he said it.


Amazingly enough - Hitler wasn't always wildly honest when he was on the campaign trail!

Also - keep this quote in mind...

"The main plank in the Nationalist Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood."

 

[Oddball]

BriPat -

What part of "we are enemies of the capitalistic economic system" don't I understand? How have I misinterpreted "we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions?" Please explain. I'm dying to know how anyone interprets this to mean Hitler endorsed capitalism.

Start with where Hitler said this, and to who - and particularly WHEN he said it.

WHEN he said it is entirely irrelevant to anything, Mr. Orwell.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

BriPat -

What part of "we are enemies of the capitalistic economic system" don't I understand? How have I misinterpreted "we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions?" Please explain. I'm dying to know how anyone interprets this to mean Hitler endorsed capitalism.

Start with where Hitler said this, and to who - and particularly WHEN he said it.

Like hitlers 25 points of the german workers socialist party

 

[Pogo]

Uh. Mah. God. It was right in front of us all the time. This is deep. So deep. (dons hip boots)

It has been right in front of you all the time. Why didn't you get it? Or more to the point, why couldn't you accept it?

Make that two short heads.
The above, also edited to change its meaning, is pure sarcasm. Had you left my post alone instead of chopping it up, you might not have stepped in rhetorical quicksand.
Why do you guys keep excising the original comment that made mine necessary? Makes you look really stoopid.

 

[Saigon]

I recognize that the word "socialist" has a meaning and that Fascism is merely another variation on that theme, as were Marxism and Stalinism.

You can call it a Ford, Chevy, Volvo or Fiat...It's still a damned car.

Then presumably you also recognise that North Korea must be democratic, because it is called the Democratic Republic of North Korea.

We know Hitler opposed the use of the word 'socialist' for exactly this reason - he thought people wouldn't understand that he was right wing. Germans in 1930 did get it - some people seem to have forgotten it.

 

[bripat9643]

BriPat -

What part of "we are enemies of the capitalistic economic system" don't I understand? How have I misinterpreted "we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions?" Please explain. I'm dying to know how anyone interprets this to mean Hitler endorsed capitalism.

Start with where Hitler said this, and to who - and particularly WHEN he said it.


Amazingly enough - Hitler wasn't always wildly honest when he was on the campaign trail!

You're joking, right? You're actually going to go with that as some kind of substantive response?

You're trying to tell us he was lying. Every time Hitler or another Nazi says they are socialists, you claim they are lying or that we "don't understand" what they mean. But if you pull up some vague comment where Hitler says he doesn't want to use the word "socialism" in the party name because he prefers some other wording, then by god that's irrefutable proof that Hitler hated socialism and love capitalism!

You have to be kidding us with this stuff. Do you know how ridiculous you come off?

Also - keep this quote in mind...

"The main plank in the Nationalist Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood."

In other words, Hitler place the community above the individual, just like modern day left-wingers.

 

[Oddball]

BriPat -

What part of "we are enemies of the capitalistic economic system" don't I understand? How have I misinterpreted "we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions?" Please explain. I'm dying to know how anyone interprets this to mean Hitler endorsed capitalism.

Start with where Hitler said this, and to who - and particularly WHEN he said it.

Like hitlers 25 points of the german workers socialist party

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. ~Socialist

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all. ~Socialist

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.~Socialist

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.~Socialist

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.~Socialist

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.~Socialist

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.~Socialist

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.~Socialist

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.~Socialist

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.~Socialist

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.~Socialist

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.~Socialist

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.~Socialist

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.~Socialist

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

(c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.~Socialist

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.~Socialist

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations. ~Socialist

The History Place - Rise of Hitler: The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party

"Right wing" never looked so socialistic.

 

[Oddball]

I recognize that the word "socialist" has a meaning and that Fascism is merely another variation on that theme, as were Marxism and Stalinism.

You can call it a Ford, Chevy, Volvo or Fiat...It's still a damned car.

Then presumably you also recognise that North Korea must be democratic, because it is called the Democratic Republic of North Korea.

We know Hitler opposed the use of the word 'socialist' for exactly this reason - he thought people wouldn't understand that he was right wing. Germans in 1930 did get it - some people seem to have forgotten it.

Democracy and socialism/communism/fascism are not mutually exclusive, you fool.

 

[Saigon]

BriPat -

You're trying to tell us he was lying.

I have now specifically said three times that he was NOT lying.

If you don't want to understand this - you don't have to. I am not being paid to make you get it.

If you want to understand, I'll explain it.

If you don't - don't.

then by god that's irrefutable proof that Hitler hated socialism and love capitalism!

The proof is irrefutable, certainly, athough some of it is in ***shudder*** books.

For a start, you could try reading the OP, which would convince most people not on some kind of obessive mission to avoid facts.

 

[Pogo]

You have no knowledge of the subject - that is precisely why you find this so difficult to understand.

And yet, you are the one denying that a man who self identified as socialist was not socialist.

Once again (they said to the wall), Hitler didn't "self-identify" with socialism; he inherited the term and protested its presence. Rather than "self-identified", the verb you want, as is historically documented, is "persecuted". Or "imprisoned". Or "arrested". Or "demonized".

That's why he had to define "'our' socialism" -- to distinguish what they were doing from the general term "socialism", which at the time eighty years ago was a new catchphrase that had yet to sharpen its focus of definition into what it means now.

I could show you any number of pieces of music from the same time that were titled with the word "blues", which by today's definition are not blues at all.
Language evolves. To pretend it's static and never changes is insane. As we are constantly reminded with references to the term "well regulated militia".

 

[Saigon]

Democracy and socialism/communism/fascism are not mutually exclusive, you fool.

Democracy and communism are mutually exclusive.

Democracy and fascism are mutually exclusive.

Democracy and socialism are not mutually exclusive.

North Korea is NOT a democracy.

 

[Oddball]

Democracy and socialism/communism/fascism are not mutually exclusive, you fool.

Democracy and communism are mutually exclusive.

Democracy and fascism are mutually exclusive.

North Korea is NOT a democracy.

No they aren't, you fucking nitwit.

You can have democratic votes and governing assemblies in under those authoritarian regimes, because they are one-party states.....They hold nice democratic votes that come out 99:1, with the 1 being sent to the gulag or shot outright.

 

[Saigon]

You can have democratic votes and governing assemblies in under those authoritarian regimes, because they are one-party states.....They hold nice democratic votes that come out 99:1, with the 1 being sent to the gulag or shot outright.

That is not democracy.

 

[Oddball]

You can have democratic votes and governing assemblies in under those authoritarian regimes, because they are one-party states.....They hold nice democratic votes that come out 99:1, with the 1 being sent to the gulag or shot outright.

That is not democracy.

Democracy is properly defined as mob rule...There's no better example of such mob rule as a one-party state.

Overly educated imbecile.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I see another simple point has nevertheless sailed stratospherically over another short head. What a waste of words.
Try reading it again. And try keeping the original quote that it was response to. It has clues. That's uh, why it was there; without it, my post doesn't exist.

Pogo, you're not very bright, which is why you're a leftist.

The point, which was beyond your ken to grasp, is that democracy is nothing more than mob rule. Generally brutal and petty, as it was in the early Soviet Union. Even Lenin was forced to abandon the model. While I believe that the prime motive behind every leftist is to inflict misery on his neighbor, this turned out to be too much for even Lenin to stomach in practice.

 

[Pogo]

Sorry, but it is that simple because I don't want government doing almost everything it currently does. An authoritarian like you imagines that conservatives and libertarians only want government to do something different than what you want it to do. However, we view the mere fact of government compulsion as something to be avoided at all cost. We don't want government to compel us to do something we approve of. We don't want government compelling us at all.

I realize that's hard for the likes of you to fathom.

We need a new word in our language for "beyond clueless". Simplistic isn't doing it justice either.

I agree. We need a new word. Simplistic is to complex a word for your brand of insanity.

When we talk about what government should do, we also need to include what government should NOT do. And to discover what the US government should not do is found in the Constitution.

Am I posting in Sanskrit?
See the bold words in Finger-boy's post? That is what I'm referring to by "beyond clueless".

Get the fuck over yourself.

 

[bripat9643]

We need a new word in our language for "beyond clueless". Simplistic isn't doing it justice either.

I agree. We need a new word. Simplistic is to complex a word for your brand of insanity.

When we talk about what government should do, we also need to include what government should NOT do. And to discover what the US government should not do is found in the Constitution.

Am I posting in Sanskrit?
See the bold words in Finger-boy's post? That is what I'm referring to by "beyond clueless".

Get the fuck over yourself.

Those words are 100% accurate. You prove it every time you post.

 

[Saigon]

The point, which was beyond your ken to grasp, is that democracy is nothing more than mob rule. Generally brutal and petty, as it was in the early Soviet Union. Even Lenin was forced to abandon the model. While I believe that the prime motive behind every leftist is to inflict misery on his neighbor, this turned out to be too much for even Lenin to stomach in practice.

Actually, no, Lenin "abandoned the model" because he died.

And secondly, the USSR was never a democracy, was never intended to be a democracy, and avoided any of the trappings of a democracy.

There were no elections, no freedom of expression of free speech of freedom of the press - all of which are very much hallmarks of democracy.

Using your own definition of 'democracy' really isn't helpful.


government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2.
a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3.
a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4.
political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5.
the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy

 

[Saigon]

Democracy is properly defined as mob rule...There's no better example of such mob rule as a one-party state.

Overly educated imbecile.

Using your own entirely made up definition does not mean the term is now "properly defined".

Do none of you have access to a dictionary?

a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2
: a political unit that has a democratic government
3
capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy — C. M. Roberts>
4
: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5
: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

Democracy - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary