How we know Hitler was right wing.

[bripat9643]

He hated Marxism, not socialism. You keep trying to ignore that fact no matter how many times someone informs you of it.

I do ignore it, because it is has no basis in reality.

Marxism (and/or Marxism-Leninism) is not only the predominant form of socialism, but Marx was the author of what we understand Socialism to be. There would likely be no Socialism witout Marx (and Engels) and the difference between the two terms is paper thin, if there is a difference at all. Many sources use the terms interchangeably when discussing movements such as the FSLN, Russian Bolsheviks or other peasant rebellions.

You might as well claim that someone hated Maoism, but loved Chinese Communism.

That's utter horseshit. That may be what Marxists like you understand it to be, but economists have a different view. It's true that socialism would be dead as an ideology without Marx, but that's not the same as saying the socialism is the same thing as Marxism. The later is only a theory used to justify socialism. Socialism existed long before Marx appeared on the scene. Indeed, the French tried to implement it for a short while during the revolution.

Just another one of your premises that is dead wrong. That seems to be the case with most of your premises.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Uh. Mah. God. It was right in front of us all the time. This is deep. So deep. (dons hip boots)

By this logic, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (what we call North Korea) must be just a swell place, being as how it's run by the people in a democracy and all.
And I'm sure the citizens of Leipzig miss the old days of the German Democratic Republic when They the People were in charge. Hey, it's in the name, and names don't lie.

Next time your mom takes you to the grocery store, pull a box of Grape Nuts off the shelf and show me where there's even a single ingredient derived from either grapes or nuts.

Wow, revelation time. We should let that sink in. For about a year.

So you think control by the people would be wonderful?

Do you know anything of Lenin? No, not John Lennon, but Vladimir Lenin? While leftist canon is that Communism has never been tried and therefore has not failed (and that you will succeed in creating a communist paradise,) the fact is the Lenin was a "true believer." Stalin may have been an opportunist thug, but Lenin drank the koolaid.

After the White Russians lost control of Petrograd in 1921, it became the center for the "great experiment." Oddly enough, Lenin chose to engage in social engineering in St. Petersburg, rather than Moscow - funny how that works.

Do you know why the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" was named as it was? Do you know what a "Soviet" is? A "Soviet" is a peoples council or congress. The word has nothing to do with Communism, and in fact regards democracy, the idea that the people in a congress meet to determine their own rules.

We always paint the USSR as a brutal dictatorship, which it was, but Lenin attempted the most democratic society in history, sort of. Petrograd was divided into small zones, and each zone elected a ruling Soviet. The catch was that only the Proletarians could vote, or be elected.

During the fighting, the Aristocracy chose sides, the Reds fled to Moscow, and the Whites were murdered by the Communists. The middle class, the Bourgeoisie, were tied to shops and small business, thus could not flee. Lenin stole all of the businesses and holdings of the middle class, but made them pariahs.

The Soviets had absolute rule over those in their zones. They determined housing, food allotments, work assignments, and even cohabitation. Often, the Soviet decided that people didn't need to sleep indoors in the arctic winter, or didn't need any food, or that wives should be given to others, or that 24 hour work shifts were needed. In the case of the middle class, all of these were often decided at once.

So ponder well the idea of your neighbors deciding your fate - it may not be the paradise you imagine.

 

[bripat9643]

What a load of horse squeeze. The bottom line is that Hitler opposed capitalism and supported socialism. He was a leftist. Nationalism is neither left nor right, expect in the imaginations of modern day left-wing imbeciles.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, BriPat, but any source that tells that that Hitler opposed capitalism is one to avoid. It's nonsense.

I get it straight from Hitler himself.

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quotes/nazi

We are Socialists, we are enemies of the capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.

- Adolf Hitler -

I just know you're going to tell me that Hitler was lying when he said Nazis were the enemies of the capitalist economic system. Should I avoid Hitler as a source?

It's gotta hurt when you embarrass yourself like that.

It's odd to me that you post a lot about propaganda and avoiding certain sources - but seem to be extremely gullible with what little you do read.

ROFL! You are totally ignorant of what Hitler and the Nazis actually said, did and believed. All you know is what a bunch of Marxist intellectuals have said about them. Try using actual facts for your sources rather than the second hand opinions of pinko professors.

 

[Saigon]

Lenin attempted the most democratic society in history, sort of

Oh, absolutely...

According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 victims, of whom 681,692 were shot - an average of 1,000 executions a day (in comparison, the Tsarists executed 3,932 persons for political crimes from 1825 to 1910 - an average of less than 1 execution per week.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

Lenin was all about democracy....!!

 

[Uncensored2008]

We need a new word in our language for "beyond clueless". Simplistic isn't doing it justice either.

 

[Saigon]

BriPat -

I just know you're going to tell me that Hitler was lying when he said Nazis were the enemies of the capitalist economic system. Should I avoid Hitler as a source?

Of course you should Hitler as a source - but you also try to understand what he is saying.

At the moment you are not. All you are seeing is the word 'socialist'.

I am now posting this sentence for the 6th time:

The German Nazi Führer Adolf Hitler had objected to the party's previous leader's decision to use the word "Socialist" in its name, as Hitler at the time preferred to use "Social Revolutionary".[16] Upon taking over the leadership, Hitler kept the term but defined socialism as being based upon a commitment of an individual to a community.[16] Hitler did not want the ideology's socialism to be conflated with Marxian socialism.

Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[editec]

True, but as stated earlier on the thread, Hitler preferred the term 'Social Revolutionary' because he did not want people to make the mistake some posters here have - of thinking he meant Marxian socialism.

True. In the term "national socialism" as used in 1930s Germany, the keyword, and all the emphasis, was on the word "national". That was their whole focus-- the nation, the Volk, the glorious Fatherland. The word "socialism", already there before Hitler, meant little more than the word "party" did.

What a load of horse squeeze. The bottom line is that Hitler opposed capitalism and supported socialism. He was a leftist. Nationalism is neither left nor right, expect in the imaginations of modern day left-wing imbeciles.

Who owned and profited from KRUPT before Hitler's rise to power?

The Krupt family.

Who ran and profited from KRUPT during Hitlers reign in Germany?

The Krupt family

Who STILL owned KRUPT and profited from it after his fall from power

The Krupt family.

Socialism?

SOCIALISM
A political doctrine that upholds the principle of collectivity, rather than individualism, as the foundation for economic and social life. Socialists favour state and co-operative ownership of economic resources, equality of economic condition and democratic rule and management of economic and social institutions. See: SOCIAL DEMOCRACY / .

One can only conclude that you do not understand the meaning of the term socialism, BriPat.


But whatever you choose to call Hitler, and however confused you apparently are about Political science, I think we can both agree that whatever WE call HITLERIAN GERMANY, neither of us thinks it's a good system, eh?

These incessant RHETORICAL DEBATES ABOUT WELL UNDERSTOOD TERMS IN POLITICAL SCIENCE are the hallmark of the effect of propagandists who sought out to CONFUSE THE UNEDUCATED.

 

[Saigon]

ROFL! You are totally ignorant of what Hitler and the Nazis actually said, did and believed. All you know is what a bunch of Marxist intellectuals have said about them. Try using actual facts for your sources rather than the second opinions of pinko professors.

No, I don't think I'm "totally ignorant" on this topic - this is what I do for a living, and much of what I know about this topic comes from first-hand field work.

I've spent more time in places like Birkenau, Baby Yar and Salaspils than you can imagine.

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "pinkos" or "socialism". I am not a socialist.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Oh, absolutely...

According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 victims, of whom 681,692 were shot - an average of 1,000 executions a day (in comparison, the Tsarists executed 3,932 persons for political crimes from 1825 to 1910 - an average of less than 1 execution per week.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

Lenin was all about democracy....!!

You are dull witted and uneducated. You lack a grasp of what words and terms mean.

The death rate in this little democratic absolutism was off the scale - it was a bloodbath.

The reason that you of the left itch for power is to inflict misery on those whom you hate - what would happen if the democrats had the power of life and death over their neighborhood? How long would it take you to kill half of those around you? A week, two?

Lenin's "democracy" created hell on earth. True democracy is mob rule, crude and vicious.

 

[bripat9643]

BriPat -

I just know you're going to tell me that Hitler was lying when he said Nazis were the enemies of the capitalist economic system. Should I avoid Hitler as a source?

Of course you should Hitler as a source - but you also try to understand what he is saying.

At the moment you are not. All you are seeing is the word 'socialist'.

I am now posting this sentence for the 6th time:

The German Nazi Führer Adolf Hitler had objected to the party's previous leader's decision to use the word "Socialist" in its name, as Hitler at the time preferred to use "Social Revolutionary".[16] Upon taking over the leadership, Hitler kept the term but defined socialism as being based upon a commitment of an individual to a community.[16] Hitler did not want the ideology's socialism to be conflated with Marxian socialism.

Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ROFL! You're actually trying to tell me that Hitler was lying? That when he said he intended to destroy capitalism that he didn't really mean it? Yet you cling to that meaningless quote you keep posting in which Hitler does not say he opposes socialism? He simply prefers a different name for his party.

Face it, you lost the debate. Your evidence is beyond weak. It's utterly pathetic. The evidence that Hitler was a socialist is practically irrefutable. There is simply no credible case for the opposing view.

 

[Pogo]

Uh. Mah. God. It was right in front of us all the time. This is deep. So deep. (dons hip boots)

By this logic, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (what we call North Korea) must be just a swell place, being as how it's run by the people in a democracy and all.
And I'm sure the citizens of Leipzig miss the old days of the German Democratic Republic when They the People were in charge. Hey, it's in the name, and names don't lie.

Next time your mom takes you to the grocery store, pull a box of Grape Nuts off the shelf and show me where there's even a single ingredient derived from either grapes or nuts.

Wow, revelation time. We should let that sink in. For about a year.

So you think control by the people would be wonderful?

Do you know anything of Lenin? No, not John Lennon, but Vladimir Lenin? While leftist canon is that Communism has never been tried and therefore has not failed (and that you will succeed in creating a communist paradise,) the fact is the Lenin was a "true believer." Stalin may have been an opportunist thug, but Lenin drank the koolaid.

After the White Russians lost control of Petrograd in 1921, it became the center for the "great experiment." Oddly enough, Lenin chose to engage in social engineering in St. Petersburg, rather than Moscow - funny how that works.

Do you know why the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" was named as it was? Do you know what a "Soviet" is? A "Soviet" is a peoples council or congress. The word has nothing to do with Communism, and in fact regards democracy, the idea that the people in a congress meet to determine their own rules.

We always paint the USSR as a brutal dictatorship, which it was, but Lenin attempted the most democratic society in history, sort of. Petrograd was divided into small zones, and each zone elected a ruling Soviet. The catch was that only the Proletarians could vote, or be elected.

During the fighting, the Aristocracy chose sides, the Reds fled to Moscow, and the Whites were murdered by the Communists. The middle class, the Bourgeoisie, were tied to shops and small business, thus could not flee. Lenin stole all of the businesses and holdings of the middle class, but made them pariahs.

The Soviets had absolute rule over those in their zones. They determined housing, food allotments, work assignments, and even cohabitation. Often, the Soviet decided that people didn't need to sleep indoors in the arctic winter, or didn't need any food, or that wives should be given to others, or that 24 hour work shifts were needed. In the case of the middle class, all of these were often decided at once.

So ponder well the idea of your neighbors deciding your fate - it may not be the paradise you imagine.

I see another simple point has nevertheless sailed stratospherically over another short head. What a waste of words.
Try reading it again. And try keeping the original quote that it was response to. It has clues. That's uh, why it was there; without it, my post doesn't exist.

 

[Saigon]

BriPat -

ROFL! You're actually trying to tell me that Hitler was lying? That when he said he intended to destroy capitalism that he didn't really mean it? Yet you cling to that meaningless quote you keep posting in which Hitler does not say he opposes socialism? He simply prefers a different name for his party.

No, I am not saying that he was lying - I am saying that you do not understand what he was saying.

Why you find this so difficult to understand, I have no idea. I am trying really patiently to explain it to you, I really am. It's like talking to a brick wall. You seem to be absolutely determined to Not Understand.

There is simply no credible case for the opposing view.

Except that in every dictionary, every encyclopedia and in every history book.

Any source can confirm that you are wrong, and I can think of a dozen books by perfectly respectable apolitical sources that will explain it to you if you like. We both know you won't read books.

 

[Saigon]

You are dull witted and uneducated. You lack a grasp of what words and terms mean.

The death rate in this little democratic absolutism was off the scale - it was a bloodbath.

The reason that you of the left itch for power is to inflict misery on those whom you hate - what would happen if the democrats had the power of life and death over their neighborhood? How long would it take you to kill half of those around you? A week, two?

Lenin's "democracy" created hell on earth. True democracy is mob rule, crude and vicious.

Firstly, the term would be "dull-witted", genius.

Secondly, the problem here is that I do understand what the terms mean.

Democracy is not mob rule.

Democracy is not anarchy.

Democracy is not death squads.

Thus, Lenin was not a democrat.


btw. I am not "of the left".

 

[Oddball]

BriPat -

ROFL! You're actually trying to tell me that Hitler was lying? That when he said he intended to destroy capitalism that he didn't really mean it? Yet you cling to that meaningless quote you keep posting in which Hitler does not say he opposes socialism? He simply prefers a different name for his party.

No, I am not saying that he was lying - I am saying that you do not understand what he was saying.

Why you find this so difficult to understand, I have no idea. I am trying really patiently to explain it to you, I really am. It's like talking to a brick wall.

There is simply no credible case for the opposing view.

Except that in every dictionary, every encyclopedia and in every history book.

Right, right, right...Hitler called it the National Socialist Worker's (socialist buzzword) Party, but wasn't really a socialist, because navel contemplating socialists like you know so much better, 70 years later, who is and isn't a socialist and how to define the term.

Oh Harriet!....What a uniquely amusing character...

 

[bripat9643]

BriPat -

ROFL! You're actually trying to tell me that Hitler was lying? That when he said he intended to destroy capitalism that he didn't really mean it? Yet you cling to that meaningless quote you keep posting in which Hitler does not say he opposes socialism? He simply prefers a different name for his party.

No, I am not saying that he was lying - I am saying that you do not understand what he was saying.

What part of "we are enemies of the capitalistic economic system" don't I understand? How have I misinterpreted "we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions?" Please explain. I'm dying to know how anyone interprets this to mean Hitler endorsed capitalism.

Why you find this so difficult to understand, I have no idea. I am trying really patiently to explain it to you, I really am. It's like talking to a brick wall. You seem to be absolutely determined to Not Understand.

I guess I don't "understand" because I speak English, not Marxian mumbo-jumbo. I don't know how to interpret someone saying he is the enemy of capitalism to mean he's really a big fan of capitalism. Please explain how you Marxist wizards accomplish that feat of verbal legerdemain.

There is simply no credible case for the opposing view.

Except that in every dictionary, every encyclopedia and in every history book.

There's your favorite logical fallacy again: the appeal to authority. Except you have already admitted that not all your sources say fascism is right-wing.

Any source can confirm that you are wrong, and I can think of a dozen books by perfectly respectable apolitical sources that will explain it to you if you like. We both know you won't read books.

Really? I just posted the most irrefutable source there is: Adolf Hitler. He says I'm right and that all your humbug pinko intellectuals are a gang of poltroons.

 

[Saigon]

Right, right, right...Hitler called it the National Socialist Worker's (socialist buzzword) Party, but wasn't really a socialist, because navel contemplating socialists like you know so much better, 70 years later, who is and isn't a socialist and how to define the term.

Actually, historians connecte with the Nazi Party as far back as the 1930's confirm that Hitler was not a Socialist in the Marxist sense of the word.

Hidrebrand is one of the most prominent, although anyone who has had read Heidigger will know this as well. There are probably another half-dozen right wing historians of the time who say the same thing.

All of this is reported in Michael Marris's 'Nazi Dictatorship'.

A wide-ranging synthesis of historical writing on the Jewish Holocaust, covering the contributions of Israeli, American and European scholars on all aspects of the subject. Individual chapters deal with Jewish resistance, the collaboration or otherwise of non-Jewish populations in countries occupied by the Nazis, the progress of the final solution and the role of the Catholic Church. Steering a course between widely divergent interpretations, Marrus argues strongly in favour of an understanding of Hitler, Nazism and the Holocaust, as well as of the Jews themselves. He sees them operating in response to events and opportunities, and attacks views of the period that rely on the spurious wisdom of hindsight.

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Holocaust-In-History-Michael-Marrus/dp/0297794914/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1363966350&sr=8-2"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Holocaust-In-History-Michael-Marrus/dp/0297794914/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1363966350&sr=8-2[/ame]


btw. I am NOT a socialist. Please try and understand that.

 

[editec]

BriPat -

ROFL! You're actually trying to tell me that Hitler was lying? That when he said he intended to destroy capitalism that he didn't really mean it? Yet you cling to that meaningless quote you keep posting in which Hitler does not say he opposes socialism? He simply prefers a different name for his party.

No, I am not saying that he was lying - I am saying that you do not understand what he was saying.

Why you find this so difficult to understand, I have no idea. I am trying really patiently to explain it to you, I really am. It's like talking to a brick wall.

There is simply no credible case for the opposing view.

Except that in every dictionary, every encyclopedia and in every history book.

Right, right, right...Hitler called it the National Socialist Worker's (socialist buzzword) Party, but wasn't really a socialist, because navel contemplating socialists like you know so much better, 70 years later, who is and isn't a socialist and how to define the term.

Oh Harriet!....What a uniquely amusing character...

He's not at all unique among the educated classes, Oddball.

DETAILS matter to people for whom political science is a real thing and not just whatever the fuck they want it to be.

It is you who refuses to accept that words have meanings and that those meanings stand for something REAL.

 

[DiamondDave]

You are dull witted and uneducated. You lack a grasp of what words and terms mean.

The death rate in this little democratic absolutism was off the scale - it was a bloodbath.

The reason that you of the left itch for power is to inflict misery on those whom you hate - what would happen if the democrats had the power of life and death over their neighborhood? How long would it take you to kill half of those around you? A week, two?

Lenin's "democracy" created hell on earth. True democracy is mob rule, crude and vicious.

Firstly, the term would be "dull-witted", genius.

Secondly, the problem here is that I do understand what the terms mean.

Democracy is not mob rule.

Democracy is not anarchy.

Democracy is not death squads.

Thus, Lenin was not a democrat.


btw. I am not "of the left".

Ahh.. so many statements of ignorance in 1 small post... but lets stick with the most obvious

A true Democracy is mob rule.. by definition and by nature.. thank god the US is not a Democracy (awaiting TDM's bullshit in 5... 4... 3... 2...)

 

[Oddball]

BriPat -



No, I am not saying that he was lying - I am saying that you do not understand what he was saying.

Why you find this so difficult to understand, I have no idea. I am trying really patiently to explain it to you, I really am. It's like talking to a brick wall.



Except that in every dictionary, every encyclopedia and in every history book.

Right, right, right...Hitler called it the National Socialist Worker's (socialist buzzword) Party, but wasn't really a socialist, because navel contemplating socialists like you know so much better, 70 years later, who is and isn't a socialist and how to define the term.

Oh Harriet!....What a uniquely amusing character...

He's not at all unique among the educated classes, Oddball.

DETAILS matter to people for whom political science is a real thing and not just whatever the fuck they want it to be.

It is you who refuses to accept that words have meanings and that those meanings stand for something REAL.

I recognize that the word "socialist" has a meaning and that Fascism is merely another variation on that theme, as were Marxism and Stalinism.

You can call it a Ford, Chevy, Volvo or Fiat...It's still a damned car.

 

[bripat9643]

He's not at all unique among the educated classes, Oddball.

DETAILS matter to people for whom political science is a real thing and not just whatever the fuck they want it to be.

It is you who refuses to accept that words have meanings and that those meanings stand for something REAL.

So what do the words "we are enemies of the capitalist economic system" mean?