...I just realized Lincoln was the Hitler of the 19th century.

[paperview]

Yes, you have benefited because of your race in America.

Really? You mean like when I was denied admission to a nearby school because they had too many White people and needed more blacks, even though the 'mix' was proportionate to the general population?

Or when I've been discriminated against for my brown skin town and Hispanic/Mexican features? Or when Border Patrol pulled us over on our way home one day and ran up on us with their hands on their pistols because we were two hispanics driving northbound in Southern Arizona?

To believe anything else makes reason stare. Your racism is an awful thing, JB, and it will continue to poison your soul.

Tell us again how all the White people should be ashamed of their skin tone because they're guilty of some offense committed by another man's great grandfather.

Now we're getting to the crux of the matter...

 

[paperview]

I'm on my way to look at an archive of original Civil War letters.

Toodles everyone!

 

[JBeukema]

Yes, you have benefited because of your race in America.

Really? You mean like when I was denied admission to a nearby school because they had too many White people and needed more blacks, even though the 'mix' was proportionate to the general population?

Or when I've been discriminated against for my brown skin town and Hispanic/Mexican features? Or when Border Patrol pulled us over on our way home one day and ran up on us with their hands on their pistols because we were two hispanics driving northbound in Southern Arizona?

To believe anything else makes reason stare. Your racism is an awful thing, JB, and it will continue to poison your soul.

Tell us again how all the White people should be ashamed of their skin tone because they're guilty of some offense committed by another man's great grandfather.

Now we're getting to the crux of the matter...

The crux being that you're a fucking moron and that you and your buddy Jake make total fools of yourself with your Anti-White rhetoric?

 

[JBeukema]

I'm on my way to look at an archive of original Civil War letters.

Toodles everyone!

That's right, run away before you're exposed any further

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yes, you have benefited because of your race in America.

Really? You mean like when I was denied admission to a nearby school because they had too many White people and needed more blacks, even though the 'mix' was proportionate to the general population?

Or when I've been discriminated against for my brown skin town and Hispanic/Mexican features? Or when Border Patrol pulled us over on our way home one day and ran up on us with their hands on their pistols because we were two hispanics driving northbound in Southern Arizona?

To believe anything else makes reason stare. Your racism is an awful thing, JB, and it will continue to poison your soul.

Tell us again how all the White people should be ashamed of their skin tone because they're guilty of some offense committed by another man's great grandfather.

I see you are sick with being 'brown'. Having grown up in a mexican-american town, I knew a few saps like that. Get over it, is the best advice, and move on, chuco. Life moves on.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Really? You mean like when I was denied admission to a nearby school because they had too many White people and needed more blacks, even though the 'mix' was proportionate to the general population?

Or when I've been discriminated against for my brown skin town and Hispanic/Mexican features? Or when Border Patrol pulled us over on our way home one day and ran up on us with their hands on their pistols because we were two hispanics driving northbound in Southern Arizona?




Tell us again how all the White people should be ashamed of their skin tone because they're guilty of some offense committed by another man's great grandfather.

Now we're getting to the crux of the matter...

The crux being that you're a fucking moron and that you and your buddy Jake make total fools of yourself with your Anti-White rhetoric?

racial and color illness about oneself, like you, is a serious matter. do get help.

 

[JBeukema]

I see you are sick with being 'brown'

You fail again, Dr Phil.


Now tell me again how all the White people are guilty of the crimes of a man who lived 100 years ago and should be ashamed of their skin tone- then call me a racist again

move on, chuco.

Do you even know what a Chuco is?

For the record, while I like the suits and have worn similar (think: corporate gothic), my Nana didn't come here to be a Mexican, she came here to be an American. Motherfuckers need to speak English.

 

[JakeStarkey]

OK, then speak English and be respectful to others. What is your problem, son?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Actually you justify slavery and condemn what you call "murder".

Actually I don't justify slavery by saying "tough luck."

Deflection. But, yes, you seem to justify slavery and condemn war as "murder". You really need to do better than that.

Deflecting is changing the subject to avoid a discussion, which is obviously not what I did with that post. Over the many threads we've discussed the Civil War I've always referred to slavery as an evil institution, and never once attempted to justify it. When have you ever condemned the actions of Sherman or Sheridan? Not one time. It's always "The south got what they deserved," or in this thread "Tough luck." Deliberately targeting innocent civilians, and innocent slaves as well, is murder and certainly a war crime.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have always condemned unlawful actions by the individuals and units of both armies, KevinKennedy. One does not excuse the other. Yes, the South received exactly what it deserved: a crushing defeat. However, the union armies did not massacre prisoners to the scale, for instance, that the CSA forces did black union soldiers at Fort Pillow in 1864.

None of this would have occurred had the South but upheld the Constitution and accepted electoral and constitutional process in 1860 and 1861. It did not. It attempted to break the bonds of the Union at Fort Sumter, enraging northern Democrats and Republicans alike, resulting in a blood bath that crushed the South politically, socially, and economically; and transformed our great union into an even greater nation.

 

[JBeukema]

I have always condemned unlawful actions by the individuals and units of both armies, KevinKennedy. One does not excuse the other.

Sherman's army waged "total war" because the Southrens were bushwacking his soldiers. Thus the citizens caught it. As Sherman told Grant, "Tough luck."

the union armies did not massacre prisoners to the scale, for instance, that the CSA forces did black union soldiers at Fort Pillow in 1864.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Were those Southern civilians ACTIVELY aiding and abetting the Confederate cause?

Including the women and children?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

yes. they were morally wrong. there is no justification for owning another person... not ever.

was sherman right?

yes.... and he didn't commit war crimes. I really don't think it appropriate to measure warfare then against warfare now... and even then, I'm not certain that given the same limitations as to firepower, that the same type of warmaking wouldn't be appropriate.

He ordered his men to commit acts that he had hung them for just the year before. As a graduate of West Point he knew about the laws and customs of war, and had probably heard about Peter von Hagenbach, who was convicted of war crimes in 1474. Why are you assuming that war crimes is a modern convention? The Hague Convention was based on treaties and conventions that date back to the 7th century.

I am not holding him to modern standards, i am trying to hold him to his.

Windbag, stop the huffing and puffing. Give some evidence of Sherman's war crimes.

What about his orders to his troops?

I repeat my orders that you arrest all people, male and female, connected with those factories, no matter what the clamor, and let them foot it, under guard, to Marietta, where I will send them by cars to the North. Should you, under the impulse of anger, natural at contemplating such perfidy, hang the wretch, I approve the act beforehand!

He preapproved the hanging of civilians without a trial. Is this, or is it not, murder?

He ordered the civilian population to be loaded into carts and shipped from their homes. When there were not enough carts for all the civilians the soldiers were ordered to take civilian riders upon their horses with them. Guess who they chose to take with them.

My delirium took the form of making love to the women.

Confederate Congress | General Sherman's Atrocities and War Crimes

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Champ Ferguson
might tell you a thing or two about murdering civilians.

"...At the start of the war, Ferguson organized a unit and started attacking civilians believed to support the Union. Occasionally, his guerrilla band cooperated with Confederate military units led by Brig. Gen. John Hunt Morgan and Maj. Gen. Joseph Wheeler. Some evidence indicates Ferguson was actually made a captain of partisan rangers by Morgan. However, Ferguson's men were seldom subject to military discipline and frequently violated the normal rules of warfare.
There are legends of Ferguson's alleged sadism, including stories that he decapitated prisoners and rolled their heads down hillsides and was willing to kill elderly and bedridden men."​

How about Jefferson Davis' Partisan Ranger Act

How about the other guerrilla forces the Confederates used?

When you acknowledge those, you have to then acknowledge the Confederate Government and the civilian South shared some of the blame for the Union's hard war policy.

No I do not.

I have not, and never will, say that the south was right about their reasons for leaving the union. Nor will I say that they were perfect in the war they fought, and that they did not commit war crimes. Whatever the south did during, or even before the war, does not justify the commission of war crimes. If you are going to try to take that argument you will have to accept the argument that terrorists can be tortured, and that we can commit war crimes because the other side does.

I brought up the subject of Sherman's march because some people erroneously claimed that the north was morally correct to invade the south and force them back into the Union. My argument was, and still is, that a moral agent acting in a moral cause does not commit immoral acts. Sherman's march negates any claim that the north might make to being morally correct .

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I agree that we all need to move past the Civil War, including black Americans, but I don't want us to forget it, or the fact that some are trying to revise it, such as QW and JB and KK, into something it certainly was not.

The use of the n-word is vile in any context, unless that context is the direct quoted material of the contemporaries of that age.

None of us have the right to use such words casually whatsoever, certainly not on this board.

Can you point to anything I have said here that is false? If not, I would suggest that the person who is having the problem with history is you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Bucky here refers to blacks, African Americans...whatever you want to call them - and has in this thread as - the n word.
Yes. It's a vile, racist slur.
You may not see it that way. I do.

Here is the thing. ******* call each other ******. So long as they call each other ****** it should not be considered offensive to anyone.

And please note that I have not called anyone that, or refereed to anyone here as that.

Amen

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Bucky here refers to blacks, African Americans...whatever you want to call them - and has in this thread as - the n word.
Yes. It's a vile, racist slur.
You may not see it that way. I do.

Here is the thing. ******* call each other ******. So long as they call each other ****** it should not be considered offensive to anyone.

And please note that I have not called anyone that, or refereed to anyone here as that.

Are you really serious?

So long as some black people call themselves that, it's OK for you or any one else to refer to them that way?

Wow.

She is entirely correct. Either the language is off limits to everyone, or it is available to everyone. Anything less than that is hypocrisy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Quantum, you are flatly wrong. Think not. Try it in polite or professional society. Try it at work, in your church, where your kids go to school. Do it, then report back to us on what the fall out was.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And they're the ones who still won't acknowledge that the civil war was about states' rights only to the extent that the 'states' in question wanted slavery to remain legal and didn't like those mean old northerners (substititute northern elites or whatever else you want to call it) making them stop owning people.

If the Union were fighting to end slavery, the Union would have no slaves


If Lincoln was fighting to free the slaves, he'd have freed the slaves in the Union


The Union had slaves and Lincoln freed them not.


The North fought no war over slavery.

I have asked about these points a couple of times, and so far not one person has even tried to answer me. The discussion keeps going to side issues that apparently make me racist, despite the fact that not one person in this thread even knows my race. And they claim I lack critical thinking and debating skills.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The North fought to preserve the Union, guys, which we have all said, but you want us to agree that we said it was to end slavery. No one has said that except you nutsos. So . . . let's get you straight.

The cause of the war was slavery, because every other cause of it was subsumed into the problem of race and slavery. When Lincoln realized a limited war was not working to preserve the Union, he co-opted the emancipation issue to kill the South. He succeeded.

Now, when you have dirty racists like JB, or libertarians like KK (forgive me for lumping you with the likes of JB), or whatever, the lines of discussion become skewered with info that does not add much merit to it.