If A Terrorist Group of Mexicans

[jillian]

Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.

there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.

every country has the right to protect itself
many countries solidified their borders after war.
it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.

someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...

which is WHY is there a double standard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.

there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?

and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?

 

[WillowTree]

Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.

there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.

every country has the right to protect itself
many countries solidified their borders after war.
it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.

someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...

which is WHY is there a double standard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.

there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?

and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?

Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.

 

[emilynghiem]

If the Cartels were sending rockets into Texas and Arizona from Mexico they would face the wrath of god from our Military.

which is exactly right. and exactly the point of my o/p.

which brings me once again to the question that some of the israel haters seem not to wand to address...

why the double standard?

Because the other side is thinking the same thing, that the opponents are getting away with murder and injustice, because they have more political favor.

Jillian all wars escalate because of mutual distust and blame projected on both sides.

Regardless who is right or wrong, who threw the first punch or the first bomb, and who invaded whom and took whose land away,
both sides would have to focus on peace and who can enforce peaceful agreements.

I hope to see greater unity come forward between the Jewish Christian and Muslim leaders and communities who want PEACE, those are the people we are not hearing from in all this.

Jillian since you are a mother, imagine if two of your kids are fighting, both claiming the other is getting special favors and getting away with more garbage. And they are fighting to the point they are endangering each other, regardless who is at fault or who started it all.

Sure, you can end the argument and fighting by taking one side and sending the other kid to a foster home to go live someplace else. But you lose the relationship and it doesn't solve the real problem.

It may be more trouble to work things out with both kids under the same roof, but by resolving the grievances where both kids feel their issues are being accounted for, then that is the basis for sustainable peace and restored relations, which is the ideal.

You might separate and ground BOTH kids from the playroom, until they agree to stop fighting over the toys, but that is just temporary and will not solve the problem without the rest of the work required to resolve the real issues and grievances they both have.

Jillian the people on both sides are human beings, and are going to fight for liberty or death if they feel they have no other choice; the war will not be ended by putting one side on the defensive or the other. The peacemakers on all sides would have to be supported, NOT just taking one side over the other, and certainly not support the warmongers on EITHER side.

This is not easy or else it would have been done by now. But there are strong leaders able to make peace, if we placed authority there and quit rewarding abuse of force and bullying.
We need to support the TRUE leadership on both sides, and they don't want war!

 

[emilynghiem]

Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.

there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.

every country has the right to protect itself
many countries solidified their borders after war.
it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.

someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...

which is WHY is there a double stiltndard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.

there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?

and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?

Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.

Yes, it is best to quit relying on media. And finding out where the peace coalitions are being built and led, directly among the Jewish Christian and Muslim people, and support those efforts that aren't getting the media attention or resources they deserve.

There were peace coalition alliances between the factions in Bosnia/Herzegovina that had taken 15-20 years to build, but destroyed overnight because of the military actions. Nobody ever heard of them, but only gave authority and attention to military leaders to go fight wars.

Same in the Middle East, and in any war-torn country where we only see the bloodshed and militant acts of aggression and neverrsee the peacemaking behind the scenes in the news. There was a Palestinian widow who struggled to create jobs and opportunities for poor women, while criticizing the Palestinian leaders for fighting to control resources for themselves while neglecting and cutting out their own people; and there are Jewish soldiers in jail for demanding peace and an end to invasions, refusing to fight. There are brave people we may never hear about crossing over "enemy lines" and help each other to promote an end to war.

If you contact CIVIC or any church/peace and justice group that does war relief, you would be amazed at the heroic work people do with limited resources, while billions are wasted on war that destroys these countries and their infrastructure. Why isn't the support given there? Should we protest or boycott the media outlets if they don't start showing the peace heroes instead of just war heroes?

 

[jillian]

Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.

there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.

every country has the right to protect itself
many countries solidified their borders after war.
it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.

someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...

which is WHY is there a double standard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.

there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?

and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?

Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.

CNN was doing a terrible job for a while. they've had some good reports, too, though.

but ask yourself where time/warner's business interests are.

and how much of time/warner's stock is owned by the saudi royal family?

 

[jillian]

there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.

every country has the right to protect itself
many countries solidified their borders after war.
it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.

someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...

which is WHY is there a double stiltndard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.

there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?

and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?

Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.

Yes, it is best to quit relying on media. And finding out where the peace coalitions are being built and led, directly among the Jewish Christian and Muslim people, and support those efforts that aren't getting the media attention or resources they deserve.

There were peace coalition alliances between the factions in Bosnia/Herzegovina that had taken 15-20 years to build, but destroyed overnight because of the military actions. Nobody ever heard of them, but only gave authority and attention to military leaders to go fight wars.

Same in the Middle East, and in any war-torn country where we only see the bloodshed and militant acts of aggression and neverrsee the peacemaking behind the scenes in the news. There was a Palestinian widow who struggled to create jobs and opportunities for poor women, while criticizing the Palestinian leaders for fighting to control resources for themselves while neglecting and cutting out their own people; and there are Jewish soldiers in jail for demanding peace and an end to invasions, refusing to fight. There are brave people we may never hear about crossing over "enemy lines" and help each other to promote an end to war.

If you contact CIVIC or any church/peace and justice group that does war relief, you would be amazed at the heroic work people do with limited resources, while billions are wasted on war that destroys these countries and their infrastructure. Why isn't the support given there? Should we protest or boycott the media outlets if they don't start showing the peace heroes instead of just war heroes?

while it is a nice thought to think that do-gooding will resolve this. it's a pipe dream.

ask yourself...

if israel unilaterally stopped firing on hamas, what would happen?

now ask yourself if hamas unilaterally stopped firing on israel what would happen.

answer: hamas, in the first hypothetical, would drive israel into the sea.
israel, under the second hypothetical, would simply go on with their lives.

 

[sealadaigh]

Nope, but the quirky analogies are kinda fun.

there is nothing 'quirky' about the analogy.

every country has the right to protect itself
many countries solidified their borders after war.
it is only israel where people seem to object with defending oneself against rocket attacks.

someone honest would admit that and go on to address the actual topic...

which is WHY is there a double standard when IF we were fired upon, there would be absolutely no question of our right to defend ourselves.

there shouldn't be any question about israel's right to defend itself either?

and while i appreciate the attempts at deflection by the usual suspects, the question is and remains: why would that be?

your right, the analoy isn't "quirky". it is flat out bad and molded to fit your argument.

it begins with mexico firing rockets at the USA for no reason at all and the USA retaliating with all her might.

a more accutate analogy would be if a bunch of rogue texans, with the approval of the federal governmennt, invaded northern mexico, stole their land, bult a wall, and isolated the northern mexicans from their families and friendss in and fellow contrymen in the south, splitting the country in two.

then the USA would orchestrate a division between the mexicans after the death of a strong leader (arafat)...and then, realising the weakness of arafat's replacement(abbas) gaol the only strong leader (marwan barghouti) who could unify the factions so that they might be able to negotiate effectively.

and such unconscionable acts had been occuring for decades until all hope of a mevican nation vanished and their land was sliced and diced and pulled apart more than a thanksgiving turkey on the saturday after thanksgiving football party.

and now, we return you to your regularly scheduled justification for the slaughter of palestiniaan women and children.

why don't you tell me , jillian, what israel wants instead of constantly telling us what they don't want, which is rockets, because as few as five years ago they said they didn't want to build settlements in the west bank. let's clear the air. do you think judea and samaria should be part of ersatz israel, because i tell you, if i am a syrian or jordanian or lebanese or iraqi or egyptian, or etc. i would be gettin' mighty nervous about what israel is doing. what is your plan for the palestinians to make them all neat and clean and civilised?

(and HG. are you watching.)

 

[WillowTree]

Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.

Yes, it is best to quit relying on media. And finding out where the peace coalitions are being built and led, directly among the Jewish Christian and Muslim people, and support those efforts that aren't getting the media attention or resources they deserve.

There were peace coalition alliances between the factions in Bosnia/Herzegovina that had taken 15-20 years to build, but destroyed overnight because of the military actions. Nobody ever heard of them, but only gave authority and attention to military leaders to go fight wars.

Same in the Middle East, and in any war-torn country where we only see the bloodshed and militant acts of aggression and neverrsee the peacemaking behind the scenes in the news. There was a Palestinian widow who struggled to create jobs and opportunities for poor women, while criticizing the Palestinian leaders for fighting to control resources for themselves while neglecting and cutting out their own people; and there are Jewish soldiers in jail for demanding peace and an end to invasions, refusing to fight. There are brave people we may never hear about crossing over "enemy lines" and help each other to promote an end to war.

If you contact CIVIC or any church/peace and justice group that does war relief, you would be amazed at the heroic work people do with limited resources, while billions are wasted on war that destroys these countries and their infrastructure. Why isn't the support given there? Should we protest or boycott the media outlets if they don't start showing the peace heroes instead of just war heroes?

while it is a nice thought to think that do-gooding will resolve this. it's a pipe dream.

ask yourself...

if israel unilaterally stopped firing on hamas, what would happen?

now ask yourself if hamas unilaterally stopped firing on israel what would happen.

answer: hamas, in the first hypothetical, would drive israel into the sea.
israel, under the second hypothetical, would simply go on with their lives.

Correct, now ask yourself this? Will the liberal press around the globe ever give Israel a fair shake? No, the liberal press around the globe will give Israel the same treatment they give to Republicans.

 

[sealadaigh]

Canada, Russia? Naval blockade?
Ignore it, between the two they couldn't blockade Bermuda.

nor is mexico going to fire rockets into the USA now, are they, but that really isn't the point, is it?

stop twisting in the wind.

stop tryng to lynch me with a frayed rope.

(ah...lol...now that was a good analogy).

 

[sealadaigh]

Have you noticed that all the left wing media outlets CNN especially are biased in favor of the Hamas in Gaza? Again we hear the bullshit that Israel is responding with inappropriate force. So predictable.

Yes, it is best to quit relying on media. And finding out where the peace coalitions are being built and led, directly among the Jewish Christian and Muslim people, and support those efforts that aren't getting the media attention or resources they deserve.

There were peace coalition alliances between the factions in Bosnia/Herzegovina that had taken 15-20 years to build, but destroyed overnight because of the military actions. Nobody ever heard of them, but only gave authority and attention to military leaders to go fight wars.

Same in the Middle East, and in any war-torn country where we only see the bloodshed and militant acts of aggression and neverrsee the peacemaking behind the scenes in the news. There was a Palestinian widow who struggled to create jobs and opportunities for poor women, while criticizing the Palestinian leaders for fighting to control resources for themselves while neglecting and cutting out their own people; and there are Jewish soldiers in jail for demanding peace and an end to invasions, refusing to fight. There are brave people we may never hear about crossing over "enemy lines" and help each other to promote an end to war.

If you contact CIVIC or any church/peace and justice group that does war relief, you would be amazed at the heroic work people do with limited resources, while billions are wasted on war that destroys these countries and their infrastructure. Why isn't the support given there? Should we protest or boycott the media outlets if they don't start showing the peace heroes instead of just war heroes?

while it is a nice thought to think that do-gooding will resolve this. it's a pipe dream.

ask yourself...

if israel unilaterally stopped firing on hamas, what would happen?

now ask yourself if hamas unilaterally stopped firing on israel what would happen.

answer: hamas, in the first hypothetical, would drive israel into the sea.
israel, under the second hypothetical, would simply go on with their lives.

you do have your ways with bizarre analogies and hypotheticals, don't you.

if israel unilaterally stopped firing on israel...they would still blockade and close the borders and continue settlement building in the west bank.

now, if you want to talk about israel dumping arm and HAMAS dumping arms we can talk.

also, if you are dialing an 800 umber psychic hotline for your predictions, tell dionne that seal gives her a shout out...and that yes, i do know the way to san jose, but i ain't got an israeli driving. lord knows they couldn't follow a road map if G.W. bush autographed it for them. they'd propbably do something goofy like get lost in the desert for forty years.

i thought it was a nice thought by emilynghiem and i am with her. i think do gooding in the from of honest negotiations can begin to solve it. if you do not think so, then you really have no reason or right to be here complaining about rockets. nothing can be done...and as i have said, if that must be the case, then i am all for distributing scuba gear to the israelis.

 

[emilynghiem]

while it is a nice thought to think that do-gooding will resolve this. it's a pipe dream.

ask yourself...

if israel unilaterally stopped firing on hamas, what would happen?

now ask yourself if hamas unilaterally stopped firing on israel what would happen.

answer: hamas, in the first hypothetical, would drive israel into the sea.
israel, under the second hypothetical, would simply go on with their lives.

I said peace needed to be enforced on BOTH sides.
For example, restricting residency or citizenship to just those people or groups who agree to get along.

If people cannot make peace, and live by civil laws, they certainly DON'T need to have access to weapons. Put people in charge on both sides that have interest and experience in peacemaking, and reward them with authority, not the warmongers on EITHER side.

Is that more clear?

And Jillian, if that is a pipedream, then so is "equal justice under law" (on our Supreme Court building) or "equal protection of the laws" in our Fourteenth Amendment.
We either need to start living up to and enforcing our standards, or remove these from the books if we have no intention of fulfilling them! What side are you on, equal justice or unequal injustice? Equal justice means everyone has to agree to live by the same laws, if they are going to live together, so that means Palestinians, Muslims, Jews Christians, Zionists.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.

 

[emilynghiem]

The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.

Good point, DTMB, but only the tip of the iceberg.
There is just as much pro- as anti-Islamic sentiment and bias promoted in the media.
So Jillian is partially right about that as well.

Either way, even if you are both right in your given contexts where bias is clear,
taking sides is NOT helping the peacemaking process and is costing all people affected.

Since Muslims are supposed to follow the Jewish Torah and the Christian Scriptures equally as the Quran (and you can see online many websites and conferences for Muslim-Christian interfaith dialogue, relations and peace and justice coalitions); and since there is similar work reconciling Jewish with Christians (and even a denomination for both combined),
it makes sense to me that Christianity should serve as a bridge between warring factions that aren't following their own laws.

Where is the attention and credit in the media for groups that don't demonize one for the other, but bring them together in peace and working coalitions? Why aren't we seeing that?
Why are we only seeing Zionists vs. Jihadists or Palestinians and Jews "against each other."

Clearly the media is biased toward pitting one side against the other.
Does it really matter if they are pro- or anti- this group or that?
Same with the prochoice and prolife division by labels to incite political conflict and competition for ratings and election hype. As long as the media doesn't show collaborative solutions, going on behind the scenes, then this is biased toward proliferating conflict.

 

[jillian]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.

You're right in large part about both. But don't you think the far right white supremacists and neo-nazis also have a deep anti-Semitic streak? Don't you think the "let them blow each other up invocations of the paulisns is a more subtle strain?

 

[sealadaigh]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.

i don't think that is true at all. i would say the opposite, in fact.

 

[WillowTree]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.

You're right in large part about both. But don't you think the far right white supremacists and neo-nazis also have a deep anti-Semitic streak? Don't you think the "let them blow each other up invocations of the paulisns is a more subtle strain?

Have you ever listened to Jeramiah Wright and Louis Farrakan? Are you kidding me?

 

[WillowTree]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTazEywdeg]99% Anti-Semitism at DC's Emancipation Day - YouTube[/ame]

 

[WillowTree]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrP_pLDDCuo&feature=related]Man Goes Off On Israel @ OWS Zucotti Sq. - YouTube[/ame]

 

[WillowTree]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy_cUpxT884&feature=related]CNN Helen Thomas 'Jews don't have the right to take other people's land' - YouTube[/ame]

 

[jillian]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

The difference, Jillian, is that Anti-Semitism runs deep within the media and the UN.

i don't think that is true at all. i would say the opposite, in fact.

That's funny