If A Terrorist Group of Mexicans

[sealadaigh]

'seal': "well, john mearscheimer, stephen walt, and alison weir, among others, agree with me. i suppose you think they are funny too? i have watched the news for bias for years. this is really the first time our national media has actually seemed even close to being fair. usually they are pro-israel to the max.

that is indicative of a lot of americans becoming more pro-peace and their awareness of the situation. sooner or lateer, israel will have to come to the table and negotiate a JUST peace or they will lose. they are beginning to lose already."


Not the poster you addressed but: I don't have any respec whatsoever for the three individuals you've cited - and yes, I've read their work,which is WHY I don't have any respect for their scholarship and hence their views.

Any time one makes any change, there are going to be 'gains' and 'losses'. The question for the US is 'What are the advanteges and disadvantages, and would the US truly be better off?'

Rather than discussing the real or fancied merits or defects of Israel or any other nation-state - this discussion *should* be about 'What's in it for the US?/What's it going to cost us?

I do NOT agree that the US is distrusted or disliked in the Muslim or Arab world because we have supported Israel: I think that is just the latest excuse. Qutb certainly didn't find Americans shocking and revolting because of their support for Israel - he was in the Midwest in the 50's.

I think there really IS something to the clash of civilizations' idea. ALTHOUGH I am not presuming that 'all Muslims are......', except for 'human beings'. I don't see where anyone has to be 'evil' or 'decadent' or 'corrupted' for two cultures to not find one another's ways appealing. Are the Amish evil?

my post was a response to jillian, jroc's, and some others ridiculous assertion that the media was biased in favour of the palestinians.

i disagreed and posted that a lot of people disagreed with thaat assertion also, including john mearscheimer, stephen waly, and alison weir.

i wouldn't expect you to respect them, despite their credentials, and particularly that of the two well respected scholars and educators, mearscheimer and walt. they speak out against israel.

do not try to paint this as a "war between the civilisations". that is just an effort to elevate your (our) values over theirs. this is business and history as usual, a war between the "haves" and the "have nots", a war between the "takers" and those "taken from", a war between the "powerul" and the "weak". your "war between the civilisations reminds me of the bigotry of manifest destiny, colonial enterprise, imperialistic conquest, and while that worked well in the past, it has no place in today's world.

what's in what for the U.S.A,? i am not sure what you are talking about. i know after WWII we were the most respected and powerful nation in the world. now we are the most feared and powerful nation in the world. i want the respect back, the respect that comes from being a gentle, moral, and caring nation. not the scorn from becoming the "ugly american."

i have no idea why you bring Qutb into the picture, un less it is some obscure display of your esoteric knowledge. i have no idea what some little known, egytian, islamist scholar has to do with press bias.

where did i say that our dislike among the arab/muslim world is the palestinian issue. that is, however, a big part of it. we have become the world's bully. we used to be the world's protector.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

the question is WHY?

why? Because Israel stole their land in war. It's really very simple. Most of the world does not approve. In Europe the Israeli support is from Germany only, and for obvious reasons. Europe is so wonderful and progressive to our liberals-right??

 

[jillian]

Libs favorite station...

Reporter Blames US For Not Recognizing Hamas And Not 'Reigning In' Israel - YouTube

Again, is there some reason the topic seems beyond you?

 

[jillian]

the question is WHY?

why? Because Israel stole their land in war. It's really very simple. Most of the world does not approve. In Europe the Israeli support is from Germany only, and for obvious reasons. Europe is so wonderful and progressive to our liberals-right??

Historically incorrect and you've proven the fact that there is a double standard.

 

[Billo_Really]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

If the US military annexed parts of Mexico, what do you think the Mexican governments response would be?

 

[Katzndogz]

If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up. Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.

 

[Katzndogz]

We have a great many hispanic terrorist groups in this country already. We just don't call them hamas and hezbollah, we call them MS-13 and Latin Kings instead.

 

[MikeK]

If Mexico fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

But some would wonder about Mexico's motive for rocketing an adversary they know is capable of decimating its population. For Mexico to do that would be an overt act of sheer desperation, the behavior of a cornered and angry animal.

Some would wonder why. And I believe more are wondering today than did yesterday.

 

[MikeK]

If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up. Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.

This is the kind of thoughtlessly oppressive attitude that gives rise to suicidal terrorism.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

what's in what for the U.S.A,? i am not sure what you are talking about. i know after WWII we were the most respected and powerful nation in the world. now we are the most feared and powerful nation in the world. i want the respect back, the respect that comes from being a gentle, moral, and caring nation. not the scorn from becoming the "ugly american."

[...]

Well said!

 

[Lipush]

If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up. Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.

This is the kind of thoughtlessly oppressive attitude that gives rise to suicidal terrorism.

Care to explain?

 

[MikeK]

If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up. Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.

This is the kind of thoughtlessly oppressive attitude that gives rise to suicidal terrorism.

Care to explain?

If an explanation is needed it's quite simple: When you make someone's life so miserable it's not worth living anymore the fear of death is diminished and is replaced by murderous rage.

Some years back I met a young Palestinian student while attending a credited lecture at Columbia. She was living here on a visa and she told us her family had for generations occupied a small date orchard for years on land which was being gradually expropriated by Israel: One day a car and a jeep pulled up to the house. There were three Israeli troopers in the jeep. One of the civilians from the car knocked on the door and told her mother their land belonged to him and they had two weeks to vacate.

She said there was nothing Semitic about the man. Rather he was clearly an Ashkenazi Jew, probably a migrant from the U.S., and that such expropriations were very common. She said if one asks these Israeli settlers how they came to own the land they tell you it was given to them by God. (A rather novel real estate concept.)

I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis. I imagine the same situation happening to me and I can readily understand the kind of boiling rage that drives these suicidal shahids.

You take away everything someone has to live for, including their self-worth, and you'd better watch out. Because there is nothing in the world more dangerous than someone who is ready and willing to die and is extremely pissed off.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Because there is nothing in the world more dangerous than someone who is ready and willing to die and is extremely pissed off.

are you a psychologist??? Who cares??? What not give us the solution rather than merely take the Palestinian side ????

 

[Billo_Really]

If mexico started the war that led to annexation, they should have to sit down and shut up before they were made to sit down and shut up. Just like they did when the Treaty of Guadalupe was signed.

It doesn't matter who started the war, it is illegal to hold onto land seized in that war.

 

[emilynghiem]

and? again. this isn't a is/pal section trash thread.

we already know there is a double standard. the posted videos do nothing to dispel that hypothesis. the question is WHY?

so the repeated efforts at trying to prove the premise or derail the subject doesn't really add much.

Dear Jillian: I think we are ALL still trying to figure out "why the double standards"?

1. Is it because the Jewish are the chosen tribe, and so all these trials and tribulations are meant to befall them in the spiritual process of fulfilling that role, and in the end it will lead to justice, but in the meantime we are going to see some wild injustices and attacks that challenge that authority.

2. Similar with why is US govt allowed to get away with wrongs, why is that authority allowed to stand even after abuses and corruption have gone on in history WITHOUT redress?
At some point are we going to see all the injustices and debts resolved?
And in the meantime, it looks like there is no accountability for the nonsense allowed to go on.

The most striking thing about these situations:
no matter WHICH side of the issue you sympathize with, BOTH sides see a double standard.
We just don't agree all who's been allowed to get away with more. But we both see biases in how these are viewed and judged, by people and by the media.

Jillian, I pray we do recognize the mutual suffering and injustice that is felt, regardless which side we believe is justified or is unjustly held to account while the other is not!

That is where grace is most powerful in saving humanity and bringing peace in the face of injustice and war. Where we feel it is the LEAST deserved, that is where peace is most precious and I pray that all nations come together and receive the gift of peace and freedom from strife and suffering, and realize we are in the struggle together regardless which side.

Love and prayers to you
and all that concerns you

Yours truly,
Emily

 

[MHunterB]

"I was reminded of that story when I read about the Rachel Corrie murder and what prompted it -- the bulldozing of a Palestinian doctor's house by Israelis"

So, what was the doctor's name?

 

[MHunterB]

and? again. this isn't a is/pal section trash thread.

we already know there is a double standard. the posted videos do nothing to dispel that hypothesis. the question is WHY?

so the repeated efforts at trying to prove the premise or derail the subject doesn't really add much.

Dear Jillian: I think we are ALL still trying to figure out "why the double standards"?

1. Is it because the Jewish are the chosen tribe, and so all these trials and tribulations are meant to befall them in the spiritual process of fulfilling that role, and in the end it will lead to justice, but in the meantime we are going to see some wild injustices and attacks that challenge that authority.

Is that what you think, Emily? How many Jews do you know who think that - actual practicing Judaism Jews, not the 'Jesus' ones? Have you ever had a RL discussion with a Jew on this topic?

Several points about that idea:

A) In all the services I've attended, all the sermons I've listened to, all the scholars I've studied - I have not seen the suggestion that Jews are 'inherently' the least bit better or 'more' than anyone else. Quite the opposite.

B) The people who *DO* insist that Jews have such a view of themselves do NOT have sources from within contemporary mainstream Judaism to rely upon (be advised that Diaspora Jews do not give precedence to Israeli scholars for any number of 'Biblical' reasons). They are 'sourcing' their views either from the NT - which is certainly no witness of the Jewish religion! - or from some website purportng to disclose the "secret" beliefs of Judaism.

C) The websites purporting to give out the 'secret beliefs of Judaism' are invariably conected to some conspiracy source, or to some cult which isn't actually Christian (Shepherds Chapel, anyone? Christian Identity?) - or to Nazi apologists of some sort.

I doubt very much that there are any 'sources' which do not connect to one of those three - because research into 'anti-Jewish conspiracy "theories"' will lead a person to the ultimate source of all that set of lies.

So there you have MY 'hypothesis', Emily - and a way to reproduce my experiment and test my 'findings'.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Im all for Isreal kicking some butt! Get em'! I know they have the funds lol

I'm all for them kicking butt, too.

but what do you think causes the double standard insofar as israel's right to defend itself?

Liberal HATRED of Judeo-Christian doctrine.

 

[MHunterB]

Emily posted

2. Similar with why is US govt allowed to get away with wrongs, why is that authority allowed to stand even after abuses and corruption have gone on in history WITHOUT redress?
At some point are we going to see all the injustices and debts resolved?
And in the meantime, it looks like there is no accountability for the nonsense allowed to go on.

IS the US really 'allowed to get away with wrongs' any more than any other nation? The 950,000 people stripped of even their citizenship, beggared and cast out fom Arab League nations by AL conspiracy, have never recovered their property or assets - and many nations refuse to even acknowlede that this was done. It was, BTW, a deliberate copying of the Nazi 'laws' which immediately preceeded the Nazi perpetration of genocide.

We could also discuss the Armenian genocide, and the attempted genocide against Kurds, Baha'i, Shi'a, the Marsh Arabs, the Ibo, the 'Falasha', people in Darfur and in southern Sudan......

And we could discuss the sex trafficking of women all over the world, the 'bride-burnings' in Pakistan and N. India and Bangla Desh, the absolute sale of children in those countries to factories and huge 'farms'....so many other injustices which nations allow and seem to be getting away with.

 

[MHunterB]

Emily continued:

The most striking thing about these situations:
no matter WHICH side of the issue you sympathize with, BOTH sides see a double standard.
We just don't agree all who's been allowed to get away with more. But we both see biases in how these are viewed and judged, by people and by the media........

I think there are MORE than just 2 'sides' in many situations - though if you want to boil it down to someone being 'pro' or 'anti' you can do so. I just find doing that seems to force things towards the 'fringes', the extreme views - and those are generally the least efficient and satisfactory.

What Emily labels 'bias' is SOMETIMES nothing more than the inability of even careful humans to be totally and completely IMpartial. Very few of us know enough about anything beyond our immediate lives to be competent at IMpartial judgement. Very few of us have had any formal training either in logic or critical thinking - two tools which are indispensible for IMpartial decision making.