Zone1 If Blacks Do What Whites Have Done We Will Be Successful

[IM2]

Blacks have lower IQs has been debunked? Link?

Yep. Race and IQ have been debunked.

 

[IM2]

Discussions of race and intelligence – specifically, claims of differences in intelligence along racial lines – have appeared in both popular science and academic research since the modern concept of race was first introduced. With the inception of IQ testing in the early 20th century, differences in average test performance between racial groups were observed, though these differences have fluctuated and in many cases steadily decreased over time. Further complicating the issue, modern science has shown race to be a social construct rather than a biological reality, and intelligence has no undisputed definition. The validity of IQ testing as a metric for human intelligence is itself disputed. Several researchers have argued that cultural differences limit the appropriateness of standard IQ tests in non-industrialized communities. Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin.

Pseudoscientific claims of inherent differences in intelligence between races have played a central role in the history of scientific racism. The first tests showing differences in IQ scores between different population groups in the United States were the tests of United States Army recruits in World War I. In the 1920s, groups of eugenics lobbyists argued that these results demonstrated that African Americans and certain immigrant groups were of inferior intellect to Anglo-Saxon white people, and that this was due to innate biological differences. In turn, they used such beliefs to justify policies of racial segregation. However, other studies soon appeared, contesting these conclusions and arguing instead that the Army tests had not adequately controlled for environmental factors, such as socioeconomic and educational inequality between black people and white people.Later observations of phenomena such as the Flynn effect and disparities in access to prenatal care also highlighted ways in which environmental factors affect group IQ differences. In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advanced, claims of inherent differences in intelligence between races have been broadly rejected by scientists on both theoretical and empirical grounds.

Race and intelligence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Black IQ claim is nothing but racist bs.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yeah right. All men created equal.

Yeah, not all men have the same power.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yep. Race and IQ have been debunked.

LOL!

 

[IM2]

Yeah, not all men have the same power.

Actually we do.

 

[IM2]

LOL!

I showed you that it has been debunked and considering that whites like you exist, the theory invalidates itself.

 

[JoeB131]

I don't see IM2 using discrimination as a crutch. I don't disagree that a lot of black individuals make bad decisions, and without looking at hard data in front me, I wouldn't be surprised if, as a whole, on a per capita basis, the Black population made 'worse decisions' (for lack of a better description) in 2022 than other demographics -- again, with the possible exception of Native Americans living on federal reservations. I don't have a problem with that conclusion.

Have a few more conversations with him... the constant whining. I'm actually pretty liberal, and even I found it a bit much.

But I have a problem with the lazy conclusion that it's because there's something inherently (genetically) wrong with African Americans. Many of the things we take for granted are the result not only of individual and familial factors but also because of our communities. I know that comes across as social studies bullshit, but I don't think it is. When an entire class of people is debased and effectively cut off from the advancements of a civilization, then there are going to be adverse consequences.

No one made that argument that they were genetically inferior. I would agree that some of their problems are the result of racism. And a lot more are the results of bad decision making, and letting themselves be led by hucksters like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

You can't take your community for granted. White people broke Black communities - on purpose. And that has had consequences. Once you break a community, you can't just put it back together again without some empathy and effort. I know some people will point out that Sicilians and Chinese faced discrimination, and they did. But that also, in a way, kind of makes my point. They dealt with discrimination and being segregated from the white community by basically staying in their ethnic enclaves - that explains places like Chinatown or Little Italy.

Um, except that people like to visit Chinatown or Little Italy. Nobody wants to go into the ghetto if they don't have to, though.

Black people were treated completely differently because their populations were so large that they were viewed as a political threat to white communities. As far as whites in the South were concerned, Blacks only had one reason for their mere existence: to serve as cheap labor that never questioned their white masters. The moment they dared to demand their rights they got strung up in a tree or the water hoses turned on them.

Um, yeah, fifty years ago.

When they moved north, they weren't treated much better because white union-busting industrialists knew that Blacks who were escaping the horrendous conditions of the South were willing to work for much less than the white laborers who had been trying to organize labor for decades, getting killed in violent clashes with private security and national guardsmen in some cases. It was white laborers and even other immigrants who violently murdered Blacks in industrial cities like East St. Louis and Chicago in 1917 and 1919.

Now you are going to go back 100 years?

Here's part of the problem that I see here. Yes, if you were a strikebreaker - a SCAB - during the labor movement, you got the crap beaten out of you and deservedly so. The labor movement can be considered the Civil Rights movement for white immigrant communities, something we are all likely to forget as we enjoy the three day weekend, what those people had to put up with to get things such as fair pay.

The one thing we can count on the investor class to do is to play the working class off against one another.

 

[JoeB131]

Whites make bad decisons and that includes whites in authority. Blacks have been impacted by those decisions.

Having children out of wedlock isn't the issue.

In 2017, Demos published a study titled, “The Asset Value of Whiteness: Understanding the Racial Wealth Gap.” On page 10 this statement is written: "The median white single parent has 2.2 times more wealth than the median black two-parent household and 1.9 times more wealth than the median Latino two-parent household."

I appreciate what you are posting. Far too many people ignore the factors you present and then try arguing based on their opinion or trying to compare blacks to the experiences of white immigrant groups as if everything has been the same.

Again, with the disingenuous figures.

When you are talking about a white single parent, you are usually talking about a woman in her 30's, who has a job, got married, had kids, her husband either left her or got thrown out, and she is getting alimony or child support or both.

Compared to a minority single parent, who has four kids by three "baby daddies", only works 32 hours a week because she won't qualify for food stamps and section 8 if she shows a little ambition.

And yes, I know you are comparing to "Two parent households", but that's not the point, because "Single Parent" can cover a lot of different situations.

 

[JoeB131]

So we are told that if blacks do certain things that we will suceed.

1) Waiting until marriage to have children, and then only when at least one of the marriage partners is gainfully employed in a job that allows them to afford them, and

2) A very strong emphasis that education is the key to success - including higher education in a marketable field - that is instilled beginning in elementary school.

Of course, there are other traits that contribute to one’s degree of success - motivation, ability, intelligence, discipline, etc. - but the two above, if followed, practically guarantees that one will become at least lower-middle class, and likely higher.

Are these things relly how whites became sucessful?

HELL NO!

Whether it was colonial government or the current republic we have now, the government has provided whites with more than it has ever given to anyone else. This was not because people of color did not take the opportunity because most of these things EXCLUDED non white participation. The handouts/privilege started with this:

And he's going into the cut and paste again.

In honor of Labor Day, as much as you whine about white privilege, merely being white for most people just wasn't that great of an advantage. Up until the labor movement, and the New Deal, most white people lived in squalor, in tenements, in company towns, being exploited for their labor.

"Hey, where's that white privilege that IM keeps talking about?"

So the black children picked the cotton and the white children got to work on the dangerous machine that processed it into cloth.

 

[multivita-man]

That fool thinks blacks are genetically dumb. That racist argument has been debunked for decades.

I was administered IQ-like tests as a 5 year-old and supposedly rated well above average. All my black classmates performed better in school than I did. They had more self-discipline, more curiosity, more whatever it takes to perform in an academic environment. They are doctors, lawyers, bankers, and other professionals today. What's more their achievements are impressive when you consider the lack of access to social networks like mine and many of the other systemic obstacles they've had to overcome. Their parents made damn sure they got an education, as they had come out of the Jim Crow era and understood an education's value better than most. I knew that was bullshit even then and I'm quite sure of it now.

Dating back to the Enlightenment, scientific or biological racism is nothing new, but people are not inherently racist. Inherently tribal and in-group oriented maybe, but not racism. Race is an invented concept. Racism was created as a way to justify capitalism's exploitation of indigenous peoples of the Americas and African slaves. Sure, create a system that willfully deprives people of education, money, freedom, from one generation to the next, and then devise a test that tests for "intelligence". Color me shocked when the people who've suffered actual deprivation don't perform as well as a group on said tests, which in the end, as I alluded to above, really don't mean shit anyway.

 

[multivita-man]

In honor of Labor Day, as much as you whine about white privilege, merely being white for most people just wasn't that great of an advantage. Up until the labor movement, and the New Deal, most white people lived in squalor, in tenements, in company towns, being exploited for their labor.

Which proves the point that I made earlier: white working class voters ended up fucking themselves with their own racism, and they're doing it today, too. By supporting segregation, by supporting efforts to keep Blacks from voting and keeping Blacks out of white labor unions, they pushed away the very people who could have made their unions stronger and who could have voted for many of the reforms that they eventually got from the New Deal. They would have probably had the right to collectively bargain much earlier than 1933.

Moreover, many of FDR's reforms excluded Blacks and women of all races. The NRA (the law not the gun lobby) created separate pay scales (lower) for Blacks. Blacks couldn't use federal home loans to buy a home if it was in or near a "white" era - a practice that later became known as redlining, which was accepted as practice until even after the initial civil rights acts. It wasn't until 1968-69 that the practice was formally declared illegal, and even then, it persisted in the decades that followed. The Social Security Act excluded most "Black" (and many "female") jobs.

Blacks have been deprived of the things that create economic parity for generation after generation. This pattern of abuse did not end in 1866; it continued well into the 1960s and to a lesser degree, it's still happening -- because people like you are letting it happen. And you're not benefitting from it. I'm not benefitting from it. The ones who benefit are the plutocrats who really don't give two shits what happens once it all comes crashing down. They've got their passports ready if need be.

 

[multivita-man]

No one made that argument that they were genetically inferior.

Oh I think you should read the entire thread - pretty clear that a few posters were saying exactly that.

I would agree that some of their problems are the result of racism. And a lot more are the results of bad decision making

I don't disagree that there are problems that are created by bad decision making - Black people themselves don't really deny this. They'd probably acknowledge it more if they felt like they could trust whites to be more empathetic about the impact that racism has had on the social fabric of their communities.

Um, except that people like to visit Chinatown or Little Italy. Nobody wants to go into the ghetto if they don't have to, though.

That may be the case, but my point still stands: immigrant groups were allowed to adapt around racism and over time they integrated. I know a thing or two about immigration and immigrants. Historically they have survived by relying on the basic human instinct of in-group cooperation: the realization that 'Hey, we're all dealing with racist exclusion together, we need to work with each other to get through this.' Chinatowns developed because whites in San Francisco basically kicked the Chinese out of their towns -- often violently. But once they were out of sight, out of mind, they built their own communities.

Blacks did not have this luxury because their populations rivaled that of white populations. They were treated as threats -- threats to take political control of legislatures, city councils, congressional districts. And when they moved North they were treated as threats to take jobs. The one time that Blacks did actually create a thriving economic district in Tulsa, Oklahoma, whites burned it to the ground - with the help of local police and even rogue national guardsmen. The message to Blacks was clear: Boy, don't get too rich, don't get too educated, don't get noticed, because if you do, we're gonna have to come take you down a peg or two, or three.

Um, yeah, fifty years ago.

And what materially has been done in 50 years to replace the lost wealth that Black communities could have produced and transferred through inheritance over the course of generations? You think just changing a law changes a community's fortunes? Shit, that's really, really naive, man.

Here's part of the problem that I see here. Yes, if you were a strikebreaker - a SCAB - during the labor movement, you got the crap beaten out of you and deservedly so.

But Black workers were often excluded from white unions. They needed employment. Many black migrants were escaping the Jim Crow south. They didn't exactly come with a lot of savings or an AirBnB to crash at for a few days until they figured out their next move.

The labor movement can be considered the Civil Rights movement for white immigrant communities, something we are all likely to forget as we enjoy the three day weekend, what those people had to put up with to get things such as fair pay.

What they had to put up with was bad, but in many, many cases they were excluding Blacks from labor unions. Many labor unions of the time, particularly before the 1930s but even after, refused to admit Blacks. And in doing so, they made their own unions weaker.

The one thing we can count on the investor class to do is to play the working class off against one another.

And they're doing it today, as this thread (and many others) clearly illustrate.

 

[JoeB131]

Which proves the point that I made earlier: white working class voters ended up fucking themselves with their own racism, and they're doing it today, too. By supporting segregation, by supporting efforts to keep Blacks from voting and keeping Blacks out of white labor unions, they pushed away the very people who could have made their unions stronger and who could have voted for many of the reforms that they eventually got from the New Deal. They would have probably had the right to collectively bargain much earlier than 1933.

Would they have though? I would argue that the main reason why the labor movement had such a hard time getting traction was that the scabs were always willing to take advantage.

Moreover, many of FDR's reforms excluded Blacks and women of all races. The NRA (the law not the gun lobby) created separate pay scales (lower) for Blacks. Blacks couldn't use federal home loans to buy a home if it was in or near a "white" era - a practice that later became known as redlining, which was accepted as practice until even after the initial civil rights acts. It wasn't until 1968-69 that the practice was formally declared illegal, and even then, it persisted in the decades that followed. The Social Security Act excluded most "Black" (and many "female") jobs.

Uh, that we got these things at all was the actual accomplishment. Yes, FDR had to make a lot of compromises to keep the Southern Democrats on board with his reforms.

Then WWII hit, and a lot of those jobs opened up to women and blacks. Before they were all replaced by automation and outsourcing, anyway.

Blacks have been deprived of the things that create economic parity for generation after generation. This pattern of abuse did not end in 1866; it continued well into the 1960s and to a lesser degree, it's still happening -- because people like you are letting it happen. And you're not benefitting from it. I'm not benefitting from it. The ones who benefit are the plutocrats who really don't give two shits what happens once it all comes crashing down. They've got their passports ready if need be.

Let's get one thing straight here... The only person I am worried about is ME. That's the only person I'm responsible for. I know that I've lost at least one opportunity to a far less qualified person due to Affirmative Action, probably a lot more than I'll never know about. And mostly, I'm fine with that, but frankly, asking me to be worried about anyone else's problems is kind of silly.

 

[JoeB131]

That may be the case, but my point still stands: immigrant groups were allowed to adapt around racism and over time they integrated. I know a thing or two about immigration and immigrants. Historically they have survived by relying on the basic human instinct of in-group cooperation: the realization that 'Hey, we're all dealing with racist exclusion together, we need to work with each other to get through this.' Chinatowns developed because whites in San Francisco basically kicked the Chinese out of their towns -- often violently. But once they were out of sight, out of mind, they built their own communities.

Not sure if that is a good comparison, really. Chinatowns today are less about racial exclusion, and more about just preserving a culture. I've worked with Chinese-Americans who don't speak a lick of Mandarin. They marry white people and they largely assimilate.

Meanwhile, black people were more upset OJ Married a white woman than murdered her.

Blacks did not have this luxury because their populations rivaled that of white populations. They were treated as threats -- threats to take political control of legislatures, city councils, congressional districts. And when they moved North they were treated as threats to take jobs. The one time that Blacks did actually create a thriving economic district in Tulsa, Oklahoma, whites burned it to the ground - with the help of local police and even rogue national guardsmen. The message to Blacks was clear: Boy, don't get too rich, don't get too educated, don't get noticed, because if you do, we're gonna have to come take you down a peg or two, or three.

You guys are STILL whining about that? Are you kidding me? Hey, how about all the economic wealth that was burned down and looted two years ago?

And what materially has been done in 50 years to replace the lost wealth that Black communities could have produced and transferred through inheritance over the course of generations? You think just changing a law changes a community's fortunes? Shit, that's really, really naive, man.

Naw, I don't think that's going to happen if they keep expecting the government to bail them out and support them.

But Black workers were often excluded from white unions. They needed employment. Many black migrants were escaping the Jim Crow south. They didn't exactly come with a lot of savings or an AirBnB to crash at for a few days until they figured out their next move.

And your point? "Oh, I'm going to steal your job, hope you don't mind."

Now, four years ago, I worked at a company as a contractor, with the promise that when a full time position opened up, I would be considered for it. During my time as a contractor at the company, I completely sorted out their production schedule on assembled items and established work instructions for ISO9001 compliance (in the process, identifying many process improvements). Yet when that full time position opened up, they gave it to "Ms. Affirmative Action, 2018". And man, this woman was BEYOND useless. No work ethic, didn't retain information. Eventually, we all got tired of helping her. They reassigned her work and she spent half her day on Amazon shopping.

And of course, when Covid hit, they got rid of the contractors who were doing work and kept her.

Am I bitter about that? Um, yeah, to a degree. Then again, I've lost opportunities to nepotism or the boss's drinking buddy, too. But I can see if you are going on strike to get better pay and working conditions, facing down machine guns and Pinkerton thugs, and some clown comes in and steals your job. Yeah, an ass-kicking would be in order.

What they had to put up with was bad, but in many, many cases they were excluding Blacks from labor unions. Many labor unions of the time, particularly before the 1930s but even after, refused to admit Blacks. And in doing so, they made their own unions weaker.

Did they, though? I grew up in a union household, but I've never belonged to one myself. The strength of a union is that they can make your life miserable if you refuse to work with them. But the contrary to that is that they can make your life good if do.

 

[multivita-man]

Would they have though? I would argue that the main reason why the labor movement had such a hard time getting traction was that the scabs were always willing to take advantage.

Of course the "scabs" were willing to take the job because they had no job and they weren't allowed into the whites-only unions. I can't believe how badly you're missing something that should be quite obvious: had whites supported the Black vote, had whites supported Blacks joining their union, they collectively would have had far greater power -- at least until the whites made the catastrophic decision to vote for Ronald Reagan in 1980, who basically helped to crush unions once and for all. Not surprisingly, income and wealth inequality for all people has increased to levels not seen since 1928, and white life expectancy in many parts of the country has declined with it.

Uh, that we got these things at all was the actual accomplishment. Yes, FDR had to make a lot of compromises to keep the Southern Democrats on board with his reforms.

Right, and those compromises meant inequality, which is the point. Yes, whites benefited from FDR's reforms, and maybe Blacks did as well, but considerably less so.

Then WWII hit, and a lot of those jobs opened up to women and blacks. Before they were all replaced by automation and outsourcing,

And union-busting.

Let's get one thing straight here... The only person I am worried about is ME. That's the only person I'm responsible for.

Which is precisely what the plutocrats are counting on - divide and conquer.

I know that I've lost at least one opportunity to a far less qualified person due to Affirmative Action, probably a lot more than I'll never know about. And mostly, I'm fine with that, but frankly, asking me to be worried about anyone else's problems is kind of silly.

To be candid, I am sometimes skeptical when people say that they lost out on a job due to AA, but at the same time, I'm sure it happens in some cases, and in any case, I wasn't there, so I'll assume you're correct. I'm sorry you lost out on those opportunities.

 

[multivita-man]

Not sure if that is a good comparison, really. Chinatowns today are less about racial exclusion, and more about just preserving a culture. I've worked with Chinese-Americans who don't speak a lick of Mandarin. They marry white people and they largely assimilate.

Meanwhile, black people were more upset OJ Married a white woman than murdered her.



You guys are STILL whining about that? Are you kidding me? Hey, how about all the economic wealth that was burned down and looted two years ago?

View attachment 691518



Naw, I don't think that's going to happen if they keep expecting the government to bail them out and support them.



And your point? "Oh, I'm going to steal your job, hope you don't mind."

Now, four years ago, I worked at a company as a contractor, with the promise that when a full time position opened up, I would be considered for it. During my time as a contractor at the company, I completely sorted out their production schedule on assembled items and established work instructions for ISO9001 compliance (in the process, identifying many process improvements). Yet when that full time position opened up, they gave it to "Ms. Affirmative Action, 2018". And man, this woman was BEYOND useless. No work ethic, didn't retain information. Eventually, we all got tired of helping her. They reassigned her work and she spent half her day on Amazon shopping.

And of course, when Covid hit, they got rid of the contractors who were doing work and kept her.

Am I bitter about that? Um, yeah, to a degree. Then again, I've lost opportunities to nepotism or the boss's drinking buddy, too. But I can see if you are going on strike to get better pay and working conditions, facing down machine guns and Pinkerton thugs, and some clown comes in and steals your job. Yeah, an ass-kicking would be in order.



Did they, though? I grew up in a union household, but I've never belonged to one myself. The strength of a union is that they can make your life miserable if you refuse to work with them. But the contrary to that is that they can make your life good if do.

I don't have time to commit to this discussion all day - probably spent too much time here as it is. But it seems to me your bottom line is, you're okay with discrimination as long as you to have to pay the price for it.

When you tolerate inequality and accept it as a necessary evil, you're playing their game. Stop playing.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

When you are talking about a white single parent, you are usually talking about a woman in her 30's, who has a job, got married, had kids, her husband either left her or got thrown out, and she is getting alimony or child support or both.

Don't confuse IM2 with numbers.

 

[multivita-man]

I don't have time to commit to this discussion all day - probably spent too much time here as it is. But it seems to me your bottom line is, you're okay with discrimination as long as you * to have to pay the price for it.

When you tolerate inequality and accept it as a necessary evil, you're playing their game. Stop playing.

*Don't --> as long as you don't have to pay the price for it.

My excuse? Hadn't finished my 2nd cup of coffee.

 

[IM2]

Don't confuse IM2 with numbers.

Apparently numbers confuse you and Joe.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Apparently numbers confuse you and Joe.

What does per capita mean to you?