If crimes "begin and end with the criminals who commit them,"....

[Dr Grump]

The reasons the Imam building it gave aren't enough? Honestly, if this the depth of your "debate" it's pretty damned weak.

I'd settle for a credible link about the Iman - otherwise your point is very weak...

 

[sangha]

I just want to know why they think the Burlington Coat Factory is hallowed ground.

The Pussycat Lounge and Bengal Curry House, I can understand, but a Burlington Coat Factory?

 

[Immanuel]

In re: post number 141, thanks Talisman but that is not the "blood libel" speech that she gave. At least I don't think it is.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

But she also says:

Acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own. They begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state, not with those who listen to talk radio, not with maps of swing districts used by both sides of the aisle

...thus contradicting what she said above that.

In short, she doesn't have a clue what she's talking about.

I am not defending her. I have not read what she said beyond this site nor do I care what she said. However, the way I see it is that by blaming the pundits i.e. "hate speech", rather than Jared Lee Loughner, we are taking away the focus on what it should be and that is that Mr. Loughner committed murder and quite frankly I believe he was mentally disturbed. If any blame should be placed on anyone's shoulders besides Jared Lee Loughner's it should be placed on the shoulders of the people and places that refused to help a man who needed help mentally.

I do not believe that anyone can successfully argue that this man was not mentally disturbed. Blaming politicians, pundits and internet speech is not the answer here. The focus should not be upon us being more civil to each other (although it would be nice if we were) but rather on what caused Jared Lee Loughner to snap last Saturday. I must say convincing me that our incivility to each other played any kind of a part in this will take a miracle.

Immie

I haven't really seen anyone make that either/or distinction. I've yet to hear anyone exonerate Loughner of his crimes on the grounds that the media, not he, was solely to blame.

I do not think anyone is doing it deliberately or even saying so. I think that when we point fingers at everyone else we are exonerating him... basically it is the unintentional consequences of casting blame on everyone else. That is how I see what is happening, anyway.

Immie

 

[manifold]

If crimes "begin and end with the criminals who commit them,"....

than why the outrage over the Mosque at Ground Zero?

First you'll have to explain what one has to do with the other.

PS: I haven't read through the thread, just the OP.

 

[Immanuel]

Yep Muslims through their history have a propensity of building MOSQUES on conquered LANDS...

Hence the project's FIRST NAME of 'Cordoba'...

And the scumbags certainly built a Mosque in Cordoba, Spain after their conquest.

Wouldn't you expect them to build mosques in their own territories? They controlled Spain for quite awhile back then. I'm sure there were plenty of Christian churches built during and shortly after the various Crusades in what had formally been Muslim territories.

The Muslim Community Center in NYC that has been termed the Ground Zero Mosque is not a monument of Muslim victory but rather a place of worship that American Muslims would like to build and according to our own Constitution they have the right to build it if they own the property.

I still feel that it would be disrespectful to build on ground zero.

Immie

The Christian Church also had a propensity to build Churches on lands that had been conquered by Christian Armys, etc.

Hell, the Catholic Church converted Central America and Mexico at the point of a sword.

Isn't that what I said? See highlighted parts.

Immie

 

[Dr Grump]

If crimes "begin and end with the criminals who commit them,"....

than why the outrage over the Mosque at Ground Zero?

First you'll have to explain what one has to do with the other.

PS: I haven't read through the thread, just the OP.

185 posts and you can't figure it out?

 

[manifold]

If crimes "begin and end with the criminals who commit them,"....

than why the outrage over the Mosque at Ground Zero?

First you'll have to explain what one has to do with the other.

PS: I haven't read through the thread, just the OP.

185 posts and you can't figure it out?

I don't need to figure it out.

One has nothing to do with the other and the very premise of the question is a non-sequitur.

If others here were stupid enough to take the bait then that's just more of the same.

 

[mdn2000]

You are somehow equating the religion of a set of perpertators to a henous crime...that seem right to you, in the land of the free?

The Glock dealer was no more a perpetrator than the American Imam.

The Glock dealer would not think to open up a store on the site of a mass murder. Nobody would defend the decency of his decision to do that, including me.

The American Imam, he doesn't have the same decency and respect.

The mosque isn't on the sacred site of a mass murder. It's located at the formerly sacred Burlington House of Coats

As well as being as close to ground zero as they could get, correct.

 

[mdn2000]

So now you're comparing one of the eight wonders of the world with the twin towers? More worryingly, you are comparing a 3rd world shithole's morals/mores/norms with that of the USA. How does that feel?

The site of the WTC is hallowed ground, just like where the USS Arizona sunk. There are remains of Americans brutally killed in both of those places.

It deserves the same reverence, decency, and respect.

The mosque is located at the hallowed ground that used be known as The Burlington Coat Factory, just a few doors down from the sacred Pussycat Lounge

I've worshiped at both locations.

I think your confused the Pussycat Lounge had woman dancing.

 

[mdn2000]

If a legitimate group of survivors families asks for respect, then a religion of peace should honor that.

If they don't, then they're offensive assholes.

They are not asking to clear out all of lower Manhattan of mosques.

What is legitimate?

What about the families who said they didn't mind or even supported the mosque?

I guess the families of the Muslim victims who wanted the mosque to be built arent legitimate. In wingnuts mind, they probably helped plan the attack that killed their loved one.

Of course they helped, do you believe that the Moslems who started this war were alone. I was unaware the families of the Hijackers came together to build a Mosque.

 

[Dr Grump]

First you'll have to explain what one has to do with the other.

PS: I haven't read through the thread, just the OP.

185 posts and you can't figure it out?

I don't need to figure it out.

One has nothing to do with the other and the very premise of the question is a non-sequitur.

If others here were stupid enough to take the bait then that's just more of the same.

Hey, if you can't think laterally, or want to be the messageboard pedant, then have at it. Go troll some other thread fool.....

 

[BenNatuf]

What great victory did the muslims acheive at the sacred Burlington Coat Factory? I ask because I'm concerned that they may have taken over the Pussycat Lounge, two door down.

I worship there regularly

Is that the depth of your argument? Do you know why the Imam chose the building? You are aware that it's being hit on 9/11 was a factor in his decission right? You do know the signifficance of it originnally being the "cordova project" right? Are you aware of Muslim tradition in building Mosques at the site of great victories for Allah? Do you have any idea what that will mean to our enemies, what they could do with it, and why we closed and deported shinto priests who had a shrine near one of the sites attacked in 1942?

Links please.

BTW, just as a side note. If I was to click on your name and check out what forums you post in, they wouldn't be Conspiracy Theory ones would they? If so, I'll bow out now...

If the history of the Shinto shrines in HI from the Shinto shrines will do, including the lawsuit they filed and won to get the property back after the war...

By 1941, annual festivals were being celebrated for all three shrines; Kotohira Jinsha, Shirasaki Hachimangu and Otaki Jinja, with an ever-growing membership of over 1,200 families. However, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 threw the whole nation into turmoil. In the worst abuse of government authority in the history of the U.S., more than 120,000 Japanese Americans were interned in relocation camps. Issei leaders of the community in Hawaii were immediately rounded up and sent to internment camps on Sand Island, Honouliuli, Maui, Kaui, Lanai, Molokai, the Big Island and the Mainland.

All religious and cultural activities were terminated as the war continued. In 1943, the interned Rev. Isobe was deported to Japan, forcing officers to call a special meeting on July 21, 1945 to decide the fate of the shrine. Kotohira Jinsha officially announced the temporary closure of the shrine and its activities on April 6, 1946.

After the war, members enthusiastically restored shrine activities on December 31, 1947, despite the absence of a priest. However, the shrine faced another crisis on June 8, 1948, when its property was seized by the Federal Government. An emergency meeting was called and a special committee formed to initiate measures for the return of the shrine and its property.

On March 4, 1949, an announcement for the sale of the Kotohira Jinsha property appeared on local newspapers. The shrine immediately solicited the services of the law firm, Robertson, Castle & Anthony and filed a suit on April 4, 1949 against Attorney General Tom C. Clark, the State of Hawaii and the Federal Alien Land Office.

The case was heard in District Court on May 18, 1950 with a favorable ruling for the shrine. Kotohira Jinsha was once again able to continue all activities at their property in Kapalama. Members jubilantly celebrated the Autumn Thanksgiving Festival on Sunday, October 29, 1950, nine long years since the last festival in 1941

Hawaii Kotohira Jinsha - Hawaii Dazaifu Tenmangu

I thought it was pretty much well known. This is not unprecedented anyone believing it is, does not know history very well.

 

[Dr Grump]

No, I'm after the links that said the Iman wanted to build a mosque at ground zero due to 9-11..

 

[manifold]

185 posts and you can't figure it out?

I don't need to figure it out.

One has nothing to do with the other and the very premise of the question is a non-sequitur.

If others here were stupid enough to take the bait then that's just more of the same.

Hey, if you can't think laterally, or want to be the messageboard pedant, then have at it. Go troll some other thread fool.....

Your inability to refute the truth is nothing to be ashamed of. Afterall, it is the truth and all.

 

[Dr Grump]

Your inability to refute the truth is nothing to be ashamed of. Afterall, it is the truth and all.

And your ability to troll threads in order to garner attention upon yourself is legendary. But carry on!

 

[manifold]

Your inability to refute the truth is nothing to be ashamed of. Afterall, it is the truth and all.

And your ability to troll threads in order to garner attention upon yourself is legendary. But carry on!

All true.

But seriously, I don't think the question in the OP makes a legitimate comparison. However, I keep my mind open to change if you, or anyone, can make the case that the comparison is valid.

 

[rikules]

You might have won the bumper sticker round...but you'll lose the protest sign round. Hate to tell ya.

Head over to >bt: Brain Terminal and watch the videos there. Brian's got one called "Protesting the Protesters"...where he shows how bad libs can be. Nothing taken out of context...just asking them simple, non-confrontational questions. And libs use hate words...and hitler images...etc.

It happens on both sides. Get over yourselves. You're wasting energy on a non-issue.

"You might have won the bumper sticker round...but you'll lose the protest sign round. Hate to tell ya."


sorry.
but that would have to be proven to me.
I've seen many images of rally signs at con rallys and tea party rallies and know how hateful and incendiary they can be.

I do NOT deny that the left can be bad or as bad

but I have yet to see them WORSE than the right

"brian's got one called "Protesting the Protesters"...where he shows how bad libs can be. "

no doubt.
but, again, having seen/heard/read the words/posters of cons....I know haw bad THEY can be


"Nothing taken out of context...just asking them simple, non-confrontational questions. And libs use hate words...and hitler images...etc."

like HITLARY?
or bill Klinton
or DEMINAZI?
or FEMINAZI?

like pictures of hillary in a nazi uniform?

you mean like that?

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

Thin-skinned, highly offendable and naive.
A waste of good bandwidth. Nothing more.

Apparently you've run out of debating points.....


the ones you started with with too few and too weak.

again
I''ll accept that there is hate speech fromthe left

but, as I have pointed out, there is easily JUST AS STONG (if not stronger, more vitriolic) hate speech from the right

I have chosen to give examples


you (as I suspected), having so little to debate with, have chosen to taunt and mock

once again
you lose

game , set...match

 

[BenNatuf]

No, I'm after the links that said the Iman wanted to build a mosque at ground zero due to 9-11..

The specific location of the planned facility, "where a piece of the wreckage fell," so close to the World Trade Center, was a primary selling point for the Muslims who bought the building.[58] Rauf said it "sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11" and "We want to push back against the extremists."

pretty well known for anyone who's bothered to look into it. And I'm being fair enough to include the Imam's "reasoning", which of course flies in the face of Islamic culture and tradition and therefore makes little sense to me, it will make little sence to our enemies either. I don't know who Rauf is and I will not pretend to know his motivations, but I will say that he is an Imam and as such is intimately aware of Islamic tradition and culture regarding the building of Mosques at the sites of Allah's victories. In fact, the "cordoba house Mosque" as it was initially called is a reference to the Mosque at cordoba which itself was a converted Christian cathedral converted to commemmorate the Muslim conquest of Cordoba Spain. I find that a bit odd, considering the reason given for calling it "cordoba house" was as inane (celebrating the coexistance exemplified by converting a Christian church into a Mosque by conquest) as the reasoning for taking interest in this building considering tradition and culture.

Park51 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dr Grump]

No, I'm after the links that said the Iman wanted to build a mosque at ground zero due to 9-11..

The specific location of the planned facility, "where a piece of the wreckage fell," so close to the World Trade Center, was a primary selling point for the Muslims who bought the building.[58] Rauf said it "sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11" and "We want to push back against the extremists."

pretty well known for anyone who's bothered to look into it. And I'm being fair enough to include the Imam's "reasoning", which of course flies in the face of Islamic culture and tradition and therefore makes little sense to me, it will make little sence to our enemies either. I don't know who Rauf is and I will not pretend to know his motivations, but I will say that he is an Imam and as such is intimately aware of Islamic tradition and culture regarding the building of Mosques at the sites of Allah's victories. In fact, the "cordoba house Mosque" as it was initially called is a reference to the Mosque at cordoba which itself was a converted Christian cathedral converted to commemmorate the Muslim conquest of Cordoba Spain. I find that a bit odd, considering the reason given for calling it "cordoba house" was as inane (celebrating the coexistance exemplified by converting a Christian church into a Mosque by conquest) as the reasoning for taking interest in this building considering tradition and culture.

Park51 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, so now you are adding qualifiers to what the Iman said. In other words, you omitted this vital piece of evidence in your original diatribe and are now putting your own spin on it. Thanks for playing. If I want propaganda I'll watch Fox or read the Huff Post....