If crimes "begin and end with the criminals who commit them,"....

[Dr Grump]

Your inability to refute the truth is nothing to be ashamed of. Afterall, it is the truth and all.

And your ability to troll threads in order to garner attention upon yourself is legendary. But carry on!

All true.

But seriously, I don't think the question in the OP makes a legitimate comparison. However, I keep my mind open to change if you, or anyone, can make the case that the comparison is valid.

Well at least you are now admitting you get what the original OP is about.

 

[BenNatuf]

No, I'm after the links that said the Iman wanted to build a mosque at ground zero due to 9-11..

The specific location of the planned facility, "where a piece of the wreckage fell," so close to the World Trade Center, was a primary selling point for the Muslims who bought the building.[58] Rauf said it "sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11" and "We want to push back against the extremists."

pretty well known for anyone who's bothered to look into it. And I'm being fair enough to include the Imam's "reasoning", which of course flies in the face of Islamic culture and tradition and therefore makes little sense to me, it will make little sence to our enemies either. I don't know who Rauf is and I will not pretend to know his motivations, but I will say that he is an Imam and as such is intimately aware of Islamic tradition and culture regarding the building of Mosques at the sites of Allah's victories. In fact, the "cordoba house Mosque" as it was initially called is a reference to the Mosque at cordoba which itself was a converted Christian cathedral converted to commemmorate the Muslim conquest of Cordoba Spain. I find that a bit odd, considering the reason given for calling it "cordoba house" was as inane (celebrating the coexistance exemplified by converting a Christian church into a Mosque by conquest) as the reasoning for taking interest in this building considering tradition and culture.

Park51 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, so now you are adding qualifiers to what the Iman. In other words, you omitted this vital piece of evidence in your original diatribe and are now putting your own spin on it. Thanks for playing. If I want propaganda I'll watch Fox or read the Huff Post....

This is what you call debate? Like the last one... pretty weak. In my "initial diatribe" I clearly stated that the consequence could be UNINTENDED, I also clearly stated it was a SUBJECTIVE judgement and that other were free to believe otherwise. I never once claimed the builder of the Mosque intended it to Commemmorate Allah's victory, I stated clearly that our ENEMIES would regardless of his intent. The qualifiers as you call them were there from my first post, your inability to discern them is a problem for you, not me. I might also add that your ignoarnce of Islamic tradition and culture is not a reason to not at least look at the issue. Different people will come to different conclussions, but they should do so from knowledge, not ignorance.

 

[Dr Grump]

This is what you call debate? Like the last one... pretty weak. In my "initial diatribe" I clearly stated that the consequence could be UNINTENDED, I also clearly stated it was a SUBJECTIVE judgement and that other were free to believe otherwise. I never once claimed the builder of the Mosque intended it to Commemmorate Allah's victory, I stated clearly that our ENEMIES would regardless of his intent. The qualifiers as you call them were there from my first post, your inability to discern them is a problem for you, not me. I might also add that your ignoarnce of Islamic tradition and culture is not a reason to not at least look at the issue. Different people will come to different conclussions, but they should do so from knowledge, not ignorance.

Oh, please, you made no mention of the Iman's qualifiers when mentioning him. You were implying the reasons he wanted to build the mosque was due to Islam wanting it as a place where they could visibly 'see' their 'victory' when he said no such thing. This kind of innuendo, unsupported supposition and inflammatory remarks are exactly what Obama was talking about the other day.

There are millions of words written about Muslim history. A lot of Muslims don't know about it all, either. A person cannot be an expert on everything. And a person cannot expect that just because somebody posts something on a message board and claim it is tradition and everybody should know about it. I am a whitebread person from a whitebread world and I don't know everything about all my cultural traditions,let alone some obscure reference to Cordoba...

 

[mdn2000]

I think in his twisted mind denying the killers the privilege of building a mosque to establish Muslim dominance over Western culture at ground zero is the same as demolishing a mosque that already exists.

I guess. It's sick and twisted, but I think that's it.

Grump is a sad, hateful little bigot. I'd like to say he grows on you with time, but except in the sense that a fungus or viral infection grows, it just isn't true.

If a picture dictionary ever had somebody as their poster person for the word 'ignorant', Allie would be there with her shit eating grin. You would be one of the most bigotted, hateful, uneducated, ignorant asses on this board - which is saying something when you have the likes of Mr T, Gautama and USArmyretired around. I won't even start on the Pretend Rabbi or Revere.

No, in my mind, I'm wondering why, in a country where its right-wing uber neocons are always spouting on about the constitution, 'live free or die" and all the other patriotic, flag waving bullshit, that what you really mean is, that those "morals" only apply to 'real' Americans. THAT's what I mean. Because we all know that Muslims - whether they were born in the US or not - aren't really Americans, are they Allie Baby...

Because you know, the elephant in the room; the one thing that nobody says because shouts of "Bullshit" from the neocon peanut gallery chime in the ear like a bad bout of tinnitus, is that trailer trash like yourself and Palin don't want the mosque built there because you hate Muslims - in fact you hate anything or anybody that doesn't fit your White, Christian, 2.5 kids, pick fence, no premarital sex, gun totting view of the world. And when I talk about Muslims, I'm not just talking about the terrorists, I'm talking about every single one of them - the majority of which are just trying to get by like you and I. You hate their guts and if you had your way every single one of them would be kicked out of 'your' country so you can live in your little "Utopia"...

Do you even know what a Moslem is, I know Moslem's that hate Moslems. I call myself the far right, I say no compromise. In God We Trust. God is even the oath Congress takes. Are Moslems Americans, you must take that on a person to person basis, you have just said all Moslems are Americans. What about the ones who refuse to Pledge Alliance to the flag...

What about the Moslems being charged with Honor killings, are they Americans. Of course not one NeoCon is trying to get by just like you, we are the ones who are different.

Add me to your list, I do not want to be left out, you sounded pretty bigoted to me and being an NeoCon I love bigots.

How about this, in your stereotype do Moslems eat pork, I say they do, ever get to Dana Point California and I will prove it to you. PM me, I will gladly shatter your bigoted view of us NeoCons, better yet you can come visit me while I live in the third world and suffer the Bureaucrats you most likely love.

 

[Dr Grump]

Do you even know what a Moslem is, I know Moslem's that hate Moslems. I call myself the far right, I say no compromise. In God We Trust. God is even the oath Congress takes. Are Moslems Americans, you must take that on a person to person basis, you have just said all Moslems are Americans. What about the ones who refuse to Pledge Alliance to the flag...

What about the Moslems being charged with Honor killings, are they Americans. Of course not one NeoCon is trying to get by just like you, we are the ones who are different.

Add me to your list, I do not want to be left out, you sounded pretty bigoted to me and being an NeoCon I love bigots.

How about this, in your stereotype do Moslems eat pork, I say they do, ever get to Dana Point California and I will prove it to you. PM me, I will gladly shatter your bigoted view of us NeoCons, better yet you can come visit me while I live in the third world and suffer the Bureaucrats you most likely love.

Talking of the neocon peanut gallery

I dunno re honour killings - is any murderer an American?

What am I bigotted about? Are you one of those ijits that call somebody a bigot if they call out a true-blue bigot? ie, I call a racist like WJ a bigot and you call me one because I called him one?

Are you drinking?

 

[BenNatuf]

This is what you call debate? Like the last one... pretty weak. In my "initial diatribe" I clearly stated that the consequence could be UNINTENDED, I also clearly stated it was a SUBJECTIVE judgement and that other were free to believe otherwise. I never once claimed the builder of the Mosque intended it to Commemmorate Allah's victory, I stated clearly that our ENEMIES would regardless of his intent. The qualifiers as you call them were there from my first post, your inability to discern them is a problem for you, not me. I might also add that your ignoarnce of Islamic tradition and culture is not a reason to not at least look at the issue. Different people will come to different conclussions, but they should do so from knowledge, not ignorance.

Oh, please, you made no mention of the Iman's qualifiers when mentioning him.

That would be because I didn't mention him.

You were implying the reasons he wanted to build the mosque was due to Islam wanting it as a place where they could visibly 'see' their 'victory' when he said no such thing.

Not only did I not imply it, I specifically said the building it could have UNINTENDED consequences. What you inferred you inferred.

This kind of innuendo, unsupported supposition and inflammatory remarks are exactly what Obama was talking about the other day.

There were no inflamitory remarks, there was no inuendo, and my "suppositions" as you call them are supported by Islamic tradition and culture over the last 1000 years. Fuck Obama. I could care less what the idiot said.

There are millions of words written about Muslim history. A lot of Muslims don't know about it all, either. A person cannot be an expert on everything. And a person cannot expect that just because somebody posts something on a message board and claim it is tradition and everybody should know about it. I am a whitebread person from a whitebread world and I don't know everything about all my cultural traditions,let alone some obscure reference to Cordoba...

A Muslim Imam will know Muslim tradition, you can educate yourself on them as you wish, but making a reasonned decission out of ignorance is not possible, so I guess since you don't want to know, I can just put you down for one of those who prefer to make decissions in ignorance without all the facts because they just couldn't be bothered to actually research a few. And, if there is a Muslim alive who does not know islamic tradition regarding the building of Mosques at the sites of Allah's victories... well, there just ain't, it is a part of their traditions and culture. The refference to Cordoba is not obscure.

 

[Kalam]

In fact, the "cordoba house Mosque" as it was initially called is a reference to the Mosque at cordoba which itself was a converted Christian cathedral converted to commemmorate the Muslim conquest of Cordoba Spain...

Do you have evidence that the name was a specific reference to the mosque rather than to the Umayyad capital city? If not, and given the explanation provided by the Park51 organization, I think we can safely assume that it's the latter.

 

[Dr Grump]

[

That would be because I didn't mention him..

This "Is that the depth of your argument? Do you know why the Imam chose the building? You are aware that it's being hit on 9/11 was a factor in his decission right?" from your post 174 would suggest otherwise...

 

[BenNatuf]

In fact, the "cordoba house Mosque" as it was initially called is a reference to the Mosque at cordoba which itself was a converted Christian cathedral converted to commemmorate the Muslim conquest of Cordoba Spain...

Do you have evidence that the name was a specific reference to the mosque rather than to the Umayyad capital city? If not, and given the explanation provided by the Park51 organization, I think we can safely assume that it's the latter.

You can assume anything you want, safely or otherwise. Whether they were commemorating the conquest of the city or not is irrelevant, they were commemorating conquest (intentionally or otherwise) and the Mosque at Cordoba exemplifies their traditions. You are free to believe that the Umayyads were fair minded and good overlords, I have a feeling those who didn't agree with them then wouldn't agree with you now just as much as this Imam might want to make them out to be glorious examples of good islamic governance (and personnally believe it). It was however a different world then and much more brutal all the way around. My point is not to question the Imama intent, but to point out that irregardless of his intent the building of the Mosque will have other consequences. Which, being an Imam, he should know.

 

[Kalam]

In fact, the "cordoba house Mosque" as it was initially called is a reference to the Mosque at cordoba which itself was a converted Christian cathedral converted to commemmorate the Muslim conquest of Cordoba Spain...

Do you have evidence that the name was a specific reference to the mosque rather than to the Umayyad capital city? If not, and given the explanation provided by the Park51 organization, I think we can safely assume that it's the latter.

You can assume anything you want, safely or otherwise. Whether they were commemorating the conquest of the city or not is irrelevant, they were commemorating conquest (intentionally or otherwise) and the Mosque at Cordoba exemplifies their traditions. You are free to believe that the Umayyads were fair minded and good overlords, I have a feeling those who didn't agree with them then wouldn't agree with you now just as much as this Imam might want to make them out to be glorious examples of good islamic governance (and personnally believe it). It was however a different world then and much more brutal all the way around. My point is not to question the Imama intent, but to point out that irregardless of his intent the building of the Mosque will have other consequences. Which, being an Imam, he should know.

I didn't share my opinion of Umayyad rule or begin discussing Moorish-Andalusian society -- I was asking why you thought the name referred to the converted church rather than to the city itself.

 

[BenNatuf]

[

That would be because I didn't mention him..

This "Is that the depth of your argument? Do you know why the Imam chose the building? You are aware that it's being hit on 9/11 was a factor in his decission right?" from your post 174 would suggest otherwise...

And you inferred from that some nefarious intent? Reading quite a bit into that aren't you? Especialy since the post was made in response to someone claiming the sacred burlington coat factory had nothing to do with 9/11 and earlier claimed that 9/11 was not a factor in their choosing it. The Imam himself says it did. In fact, I belive the poster said they owned it before 9/11, which of course they did not. I never once implied his reason for building the Mosque and choosing the site was at issue, I've said from the first post its not about what he intends, its about what our enemies will gain from it irregardless of his intentions.

 

[Dr Grump]

And you inferred from that some nefarious intent? Reading quite a bit into that aren't you? Especialy since the post was made in response to someone claiming the sacred burlington coat factory had nothing to do with 9/11 and earlier claimed that 9/11 was not a factor in their choosing it. The Imam himself says it did. In fact, I belive the poster said they owned it before 9/11, which of course they did not. I never once implied his reason for building the Mosque and choosing the site was at issue, I've said from the first post its not about what he intends, its about what our enemies will gain from it irregardless of his intentions.

1) And you weren't trying to infer that?
2) Is that why you said "Is that the depth of your argument? Do you know why the Imam chose the building? You are aware that it's being hit on 9/11 was a factor in his decission right?" without adding that the 'factor' was he wanted to shove it up the hijacker's butts?
3) You did not say directly, but you know that, I know that, and anybody reading this thread knows that. Stop being a dick about it...

 

[BenNatuf]

Do you have evidence that the name was a specific reference to the mosque rather than to the Umayyad capital city? If not, and given the explanation provided by the Park51 organization, I think we can safely assume that it's the latter.

You can assume anything you want, safely or otherwise. Whether they were commemorating the conquest of the city or not is irrelevant, they were commemorating conquest (intentionally or otherwise) and the Mosque at Cordoba exemplifies their traditions. You are free to believe that the Umayyads were fair minded and good overlords, I have a feeling those who didn't agree with them then wouldn't agree with you now just as much as this Imam might want to make them out to be glorious examples of good islamic governance (and personnally believe it). It was however a different world then and much more brutal all the way around. My point is not to question the Imama intent, but to point out that irregardless of his intent the building of the Mosque will have other consequences. Which, being an Imam, he should know.

The church was converted to commemmorate the conquest, any way you look at it, its commemorative of conquest and I'm pretty sure the Imam knows the signifficance of it, especially since to my knowledge the Mosque at Cordoba is the largest Mosque in Eurpoe and has some degree of signifficance to Muslims. At least those who know their history... like an Imam. It is fair to say that his intent may be exactly what he says it is, but it is equally fair to say that as an Imam he will know the signifficance, even if he does reject it as precedent. And he will know what it will mean to our enemies, he will know that, it should be a consideration for him most of all given his stated reasons for wanting to build the Mosque. Knowing his own traditions and culture he should know those things.

 

[mdn2000]

Do you even know what a Moslem is, I know Moslem's that hate Moslems. I call myself the far right, I say no compromise. In God We Trust. God is even the oath Congress takes. Are Moslems Americans, you must take that on a person to person basis, you have just said all Moslems are Americans. What about the ones who refuse to Pledge Alliance to the flag...

What about the Moslems being charged with Honor killings, are they Americans. Of course not one NeoCon is trying to get by just like you, we are the ones who are different.

Add me to your list, I do not want to be left out, you sounded pretty bigoted to me and being an NeoCon I love bigots.

How about this, in your stereotype do Moslems eat pork, I say they do, ever get to Dana Point California and I will prove it to you. PM me, I will gladly shatter your bigoted view of us NeoCons, better yet you can come visit me while I live in the third world and suffer the Bureaucrats you most likely love.

Talking of the neocon peanut gallery

I dunno re honour killings - is any murderer an American?

What am I bigotted about? Are you one of those ijits that call somebody a bigot if they call out a true-blue bigot? ie, I call a racist like WJ a bigot and you call me one because I called him one?

Are you drinking?

Actually I am drinking, and no I did not call you a bigot because you called WJ a bigot. I am just fond of one or two other members you mentioned in the same post so in their defense I thought I would take a jab at you, thats all. If you were calling only WJ a racist you should of left is at that, I do not think you should of included every other person in your post a racist, I should of been Civil and asked specifically why such and such is a bigot or racist as well.

Yes, I had a couple of beers, did it effect my judgement, not at all. Can you truthfully state all those you mentioned are bigots because if you can I will have to question why bigots or racists have thanked a post of mine where I posted a photo of me with my african-american wife.

They could be racist and bigots as well as hypocrites. Still, I thought they were sincere.

So you called someone a racist or categorized someone who thanked a post of me and my wife, I am in a mixed race marriage. Hopefully you can see how I felt I should of challenged you.

I guess the smarter thing to do would be to ask you in a private message how you include such and such.

Sorry. Carry on, I have nothing to add, I was sort of trolling to make a point as well as defending at least one person in particular.

 

[Dr Grump]

So you called someone a racist or categorized someone who thanked a post of me and my wife, I am in a mixed race marriage. Hopefully you can see how I felt I should of challenged you.

I guess the smarter thing to do would be to ask you in a private message how you include such and such.

Sorry. Carry on, I have nothing to add, I was sort of trolling to make a point as well as defending at least one person in particular.

Bigotry is not exclusive to race. It covers religion, gender, sexuality. And you can be racist against a single race. You might love white, black, Asian people but hate arabs. If you hate arabs for no other reason than they are arabs, then they are a racist - albeit against a single race.

Every person I mentioned in that post is a bigot of one form or another...

 

[HUGGY]

If crimes "begin and end with the criminals who commit them,"..

Then why is Charles Manson in prison?

 

[Dr Grump]

If crimes "begin and end with the criminals who commit them,"..

Then why is Charles Manson in prison?

He did commit a crime...

 

[BenNatuf]

BenNatuf

More than happy to carry on discussion once you provide link on:
1) The site was purchased post 9-11
2) The Iman responsible bought it for the reason you stated.
3) I believe you are either lying, or your 'source' is less than credible...

Already provided the link with the Imams own words as to why he was buying the property. On 9/11 it was a burlington coat factory, not a Mosque. There was and still is a Mosque right down the street prior to 9/11, but there was not one at the burlington coat factory. And if resorting to insinuations of lying is all you've got you're really not worth the effort of typing. If you don't like Wiki as a source you are free to use any of the hypelinks they provide to research the strory all you want.

The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html

Now, should I assume you or the other poster were lying when you or they said they owned the building before 9/11? (honestly I forget if it was you or someone else)
Should i assume you or another poster is lying about a Mosque being on the site prior to 9/11? (don't remember who said it)

Or should I just assume you and they were ignorant of the facts... which incidently you seem to be incredibly resistant to no matter the source.

I will assume the paper of record is a good enough source. They bought the building in Jul of either 2008 or 2009 (2009 I believe).

 

[Kalam]

The church was converted to commemmorate the conquest, any way you look at it, its commemorative of conquest and I'm pretty sure the Imam knows the signifficance of it, especially since to my knowledge the Mosque at Cordoba is the largest Mosque in Eurpoe and has some degree of signifficance to Muslims. At least those who know their history... like an Imam. It is fair to say that his intent may be exactly what he says it is, but it is equally fair to say that as an Imam he will know the signifficance, even if he does reject it as precedent. And he will know what it will mean to our enemies, he will know that, it should be a consideration for him most of all given his stated reasons for wanting to build the Mosque. Knowing his own traditions and culture he should know those things.

That wasn't my question.

"I was asking why you thought the name referred to the converted church rather than to the city itself."

 

[Kalam]

Yes, I had a couple of beers, did it effect my judgement, not at all.

You sound like one of those poor drunk saps on "Cops" who gets pulled over for swerving all over the road.