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I thought you said you don't believe in the supernatural, so how can you ascribe something you don't think is there to me to speaks of the physical and the non-physical. What are we even talking about? Please present a specific example.Please describe this ''spirit'' thing you claim exists. How does anyone identify a spirit realm outside of the physical body? I believe you're unnecessarily ascribing supernatural concepts to purely physical (chemical / electro chemical functions of the brain that are fairly well understood.
I might be but not for this, Taz.I just quoted what I said, idiot. So how was church today? You still going to hell?Sure you did. Go back and re-read the exchange.I never said they were discovered, you made that bullshit up. Here's what I said "Love and truth are characteristics of humans and can't exist without them."Stop being silly. You already admitted that love and truth were discovered by humans, Taz. That's an acknowledgement that love and truth existed independently of humans.That's totally random... and meaningless. Drink some more water.By consciousness.By humans.Everything is discovered.Math is part of the matrix of time and space. Music can be said to exist independent of man because the universe makes sounds. More Aaron Copeland than anything by the Beatles, but still.Yes, so does mathematics, music, love and truth. All of which are manifested by consciousness.Science exists without man ever discovering any of it.Science is manifested by consciousness, Hollie. You can't get around the human element.The same can’t be said about science. Science relies on a hypothesis, testing and evaluation of evidence to reach conclusions. Accepting culturally appropriate gods due to tradition and because those are the gods you inherited is like wearing a hand-me-down wardrobe.The same can be said about science. Or have you custom assembled your science? And then you custom assembled God so that you did not have to bother with God? Kind of like custom assembling a wardrobe so one doesn't have to bother with ironing...?I wouldn’t accept the idea that one unthinkingly inherits the gods commonly associated with their familial / geographic location.
Love and truth are characteristics of humans and can't exist without them.
Which means it exists unto itself since it was discovered.
Everything is discovered.
By humans.
Everything which is possible to exist exists in potentiality until it is discovered. The act of knowing it exists does not create it. Relativity, music, math, science, love and truth all exist independent of you knowing they exist, Taz.By consciousness.
Which means it exists unto itself since it was discovered.
No. You are an atheist, Taz. You don't believe God exists. That's an atheist. If you say you don't know if God exists that's still an atheist because that's not believing in God.
Hollie you are forgetting to tell us what species that you know were observed speciating.There are a number of obvious fallacies in the above.OK this is progress, you say that you can't explain how DNA code wrote itself but reject that God did it because you consider God to be supernatural. The reason that you can not explain DNA is because you see that it is a complicated computer code that arranges molecules to do things, and that the molecules are code directed not arranging by weight or charge. Saying that DNA created itself out of nothing one it's own when it did not exist nor did any life exist is also supernaturalI can't, meaning science is still trying to figure it out. You on the other hand, don't know, so you settle on your preferred invisible buddy. Quite illogical.So explain how even one line of DNA could form itself without an intelligence writing it? Keeping in mind that thousands of genes are needed for a small primordial life form.Actually, I'm AM blind. To con jobs.You would not change your mind if God stood before you and cured your blindness. Yea I know that you have no clue that you are blindThat also doesn't prove your preferred invisible dude.Actually there is proof that you are there and I am here.No proof that's it's your preferred invisible dude. Only a possibility.Actually thinking people see that DNA is a molecular computer code of unimaginable ability that could not from itself by itself in a dead pond because nothing does not write codeThat's why being agnostic is the thinking person's position. We don't know either way whether a god exists or not but leave the door open in case someone finds real proof either way.If God doesn’t exist, the universe came into existence by chance, the first living cell developed from non-living matter by chance, and all living things are the eventual product of the blind, undirected process of evolution. In such a case, human life is no more valuable than dust, and there is no basis for saying that any life matters. Only if there is an author of life who creates and imbues us with a meaning greater than our physical parts can lives actually matter, and in an equal way.
If God doesn’t exist, there’s also no objective standard for labeling an action—such as murder—wrong. If we’re all just the product of blind, purposeless forces, morality is just an opinion. Unless there is a higher-than-human moral authority, no one has a basis for claiming that murder is objectively wrong.
And finally, if God doesn’t exist, the concept of justice is meaningless because there can be no right or wrong in the first place to require justice. As C.S. Lewis famously said about his conversion to Christianity, “My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” Justice requires a standard, and there is no objective standard in a purposeless universe.
5 Ways Christians are Getting Swept into a Secular Worldview in This Cultural Moment
Culture is influencing the church's response more than the church is influencing culture.christianmomthoughts.com
Grow upThat's what agnostic's do, I know I do, and if I ever come across any real proof either way, I'm open to changing my mind. Seems fair to me, what do you think?Some prefer not to sit and think, but to explore and discover.That's why being agnostic is the thinking person's position.
You can't so you are implying the supernatural.
Since no one can explain how DNA created itself a creator is required, this is a scientific requirement. Tyson now sees this and in opposition of everything he has ever said is now saying that the universe is a computer program which requires a creator.
Also the only thing supernatural about God is that he is not here but perhaps trillions of miles away if his race still exist. That said God does still exist right here in you whether you know it or not
“Since no one can explain how DNA created itself a creator is required, this is a scientific requirement.”
Since no one can explain howDNAa supernatural creator created itselfa creator is required, an endless hierarchy of super-supernatural creators is required, this is a scientific requirement.
It’s a common tactic of religious extremists to retreat to fear and ignorance when they don’t understand something. It’s a bit like the gods of thunder and lightning have become the gods of DNA.
Secondly, you make a common error of confusing protein based DNA with computer code. This is a falsehood and a rather juvenile effort promoted by various fundie creation ministries to press their religious agenda.
Science has figured it out, they did so when the DNA code was discovered, it is quad based in comparison to modern binary based computer code. The biggest difference between DNA and binary code is that once it is written it recreates and rewrites itself allowing the creator to do other things and be in other places. Actually it's really great engineering because it fixes, adapts itself to the environment. If we take life to other planets it merely continues to adapt this is already knownI'm agnostic, so I don't say that god couldn't have done it because I have no proof to base that statement on, I'm saying that sure, it could be a god, but so far there's no proof for that, and the fact that science hasn't figured it out yet is also not proof of a supernatural being.OK this is progress, you say that you can't explain how DNA code wrote itself but reject that God did it because you consider God to be supernatural. The reason that you can not explain DNA is because you see that it is a complicated computer code that arranges molecules to do things, and that the molecules are code directed not arranging by weight or charge. Saying that DNA created itself out of nothing one it's own when it did not exist nor did any life exist is also supernaturalI can't, meaning science is still trying to figure it out. You on the other hand, don't know, so you settle on your preferred invisible buddy. Quite illogical.So explain how even one line of DNA could form itself without an intelligence writing it? Keeping in mind that thousands of genes are needed for a small primordial life form.Actually, I'm AM blind. To con jobs.You would not change your mind if God stood before you and cured your blindness. Yea I know that you have no clue that you are blindThat also doesn't prove your preferred invisible dude.Actually there is proof that you are there and I am here.No proof that's it's your preferred invisible dude. Only a possibility.Actually thinking people see that DNA is a molecular computer code of unimaginable ability that could not from itself by itself in a dead pond because nothing does not write codeThat's why being agnostic is the thinking person's position. We don't know either way whether a god exists or not but leave the door open in case someone finds real proof either way.If God doesn’t exist, the universe came into existence by chance, the first living cell developed from non-living matter by chance, and all living things are the eventual product of the blind, undirected process of evolution. In such a case, human life is no more valuable than dust, and there is no basis for saying that any life matters. Only if there is an author of life who creates and imbues us with a meaning greater than our physical parts can lives actually matter, and in an equal way.
If God doesn’t exist, there’s also no objective standard for labeling an action—such as murder—wrong. If we’re all just the product of blind, purposeless forces, morality is just an opinion. Unless there is a higher-than-human moral authority, no one has a basis for claiming that murder is objectively wrong.
And finally, if God doesn’t exist, the concept of justice is meaningless because there can be no right or wrong in the first place to require justice. As C.S. Lewis famously said about his conversion to Christianity, “My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” Justice requires a standard, and there is no objective standard in a purposeless universe.
5 Ways Christians are Getting Swept into a Secular Worldview in This Cultural Moment
Culture is influencing the church's response more than the church is influencing culture.
Grow upThat's what agnostic's do, I know I do, and if I ever come across any real proof either way, I'm open to changing my mind. Seems fair to me, what do you think?Some prefer not to sit and think, but to explore and discover.That's why being agnostic is the thinking person's position.
You can't so you are implying the supernatural.
Since no one can explain how DNA created itself a creator is required, this is a scientific requirement. Tyson now sees this and in opposition of everything he has ever said is now saying that the universe is a computer program which requires a creator.
Also the only thing supernatural about God is that he is not here but perhaps trillions of miles away if his race still exist. That said God does still exist right here in you whether you know it or not
DNA creating itself in a pond from nothing would be highly supernatural Hollie knows this but will not accept the truthOkay, so let's get this straight. I do not talk about supernaturalism and you say you are not aware of any event that can be attributed to it. So are you asking me to support the claims of those who do? If so, don't I need a specific example of something someone considers supernatural?I have no examples of supernaturalism. I'm not aware of any event in human history that can be attributed to supernaturalism.
I would think that those suggesting supernaturalism is extant should provide specific examples. Those making a positive claim are tasked with supporting their claims.
Correct. I don’t believe in the supernatural. Terms and definitions are important so when people make references to gods and spirits, heavens and hells, those are non-material concepts. The attributes of gods often include their existence in realms outside of the natural world in an un-natural or supernatural realm.I thought you said you don't believe in the supernatural, so how can you ascribe something you don't think is there to me to speaks of the physical and the non-physical. What are we even talking about? Please present a specific example.Please describe this ''spirit'' thing you claim exists. How does anyone identify a spirit realm outside of the physical body? I believe you're unnecessarily ascribing supernatural concepts to purely physical (chemical / electro chemical functions of the brain that are fairly well understood.
No. You are an atheist, Taz. You don't believe God exists. That's an atheist. If you say you don't know if God exists that's still an atheist because that's not believing in God.
He who honors me, I will honor. - 1 Samuel 2:30
Neither atheists nor agnostics honor God. I can't think of anyone who is more dishonorable than those who promote and support the butchering of innocent, unborn babies.
Before you were conceived in the womb I knew you. - Jeremiah 1:5
.No. You are an atheist, Taz. You don't believe God exists. That's an atheist. If you say you don't know if God exists that's still an atheist because that's not believing in God.
He who honors me, I will honor. - 1 Samuel 2:30
Neither atheists nor agnostics honor God. I can't think of anyone who is more dishonorable than those who promote and support the butchering of innocent, unborn babies.
Before you were conceived in the womb I knew you. - Jeremiah 1:5
.Neither atheists nor agnostics honor God.
Hollie, you do not seem to understand. I do not see things as natural or supernatural. I see what is.Correct. I don’t believe in the supernatural. Terms and definitions are important so when people make references to gods and spirits, heavens and hells, those are non-material concepts. The attributes of gods often include their existence in realms outside of the natural world in an un-natural or supernatural realm.
Can you define any of these supernatural realms?
Jeremiah 1:5 says no such thing.Before you were conceived in the womb I knew I would kill you. - Jeremiah 1:5(a)
Hollie, you do not seem to understand. I do not see things as natural or supernatural. I see what is.Correct. I don’t believe in the supernatural. Terms and definitions are important so when people make references to gods and spirits, heavens and hells, those are non-material concepts. The attributes of gods often include their existence in realms outside of the natural world in an un-natural or supernatural realm.
Can you define any of these supernatural realms?
Non-material or, by your definition, 'supernatural') concepts include ideas, imagination, beauty, thoughts, ideals. By your definition, because they exist in your world, they are not supernatural, but natural. I have a good friend, an atheist, who knows there are ghosts. She did not, and does not, want to believe in them, but when they make themselves known in the house you live in (just as they had to the a string of renters before)...shrug.
What say you? If you, like my friend, had to live with ghosts for a time, would you call that natural or supernatural? Or, does it simply fall into the category of quite unusual?
Let's try this. When your mind presents you with several options or ideas, what part of your mind makes the selection? Why doesn't this part of your mind simply present you with the selection it has already chosen? Why all the other options? Is it simply your brain misfiring? When given a choice between right and wrong, are all the wrongs simply another example of a brain misfiring? Why do some brains give signals of delight when they see a room decorated in blues and yellows, while other brains find that combination totally distasteful? Why does the brain even care?
It does in my religion. My religion is The Religion of HonestyJeremiah 1:5 says no such thing.Before you were conceived in the womb I knew I would kill you. - Jeremiah 1:5(a)
, the one true religion.If God doesn’t exist, the universe came into existence by chance, the first living cell developed from non-living matter by chance, and all living things are the eventual product of the blind, undirected process of evolution. In such a case, human life is no more valuable than dust, and there is no basis for saying that any life matters. Only if there is an author of life who creates and imbues us with a meaning greater than our physical parts can lives actually matter, and in an equal way.
If God doesn’t exist, there’s also no objective standard for labeling an action—such as murder—wrong. If we’re all just the product of blind, purposeless forces, morality is just an opinion. Unless there is a higher-than-human moral authority, no one has a basis for claiming that murder is objectively wrong.
And finally, if God doesn’t exist, the concept of justice is meaningless because there can be no right or wrong in the first place to require justice.
Might I suggest you advise your friend in the haunted house that thoroughly mundane actions like differential settlement of the homes’ foundation can cause those ghostly noises. It’s just stress cracks as the foundation shifts.
What if it came from outer space on an asteroid...?DNA creating itself in a pond from nothing would be highly supernatural Hollie knows this but will not accept the truthOkay, so let's get this straight. I do not talk about supernaturalism and you say you are not aware of any event that can be attributed to it. So are you asking me to support the claims of those who do? If so, don't I need a specific example of something someone considers supernatural?I have no examples of supernaturalism. I'm not aware of any event in human history that can be attributed to supernaturalism.
I would think that those suggesting supernaturalism is extant should provide specific examples. Those making a positive claim are tasked with supporting their claims.
So your Religion of Honesty sneaks your thoughts into another author's work? If that is honest, I cannot help but wonder what an outright lie would be.It does in my religion. My religion is The Religion of Honesty
Might I suggest you advise your friend in the haunted house that thoroughly mundane actions like differential settlement of the homes’ foundation can cause those ghostly noises. It’s just stress cracks as the foundation shifts.
Oh, wow! A family of atheists, none of whom had a superstitious bone in their bodies) would never have thought of that!
Further, first I've heard that settlement of a foundation can form words and hold conversations, not to mention can also be seen.
Their hypothesis was since the disturbance always showed tremendous emotional upheaval, is it sometimes possible that sometimes an echo of this can travel down through years somehow bouncing around, so while the physical had been long gone, the images and sounds were 'echoing' (for lack of a better word). I think more of that theory than a settling of a foundation created the shouts, screams, sounds, and images that they lived with from time to time.
So your Religion of Honesty sneaks your thoughts into another author's work? If that is honest, I cannot help but wonder what an outright lie would be.It does in my religion. My religion is The Religion of Honesty
Are you saying a the parents in a family of upper elementary school children and young teens would add psychedelic drugs (and alcoholic drinks) to the family dinner just to yuk it up. Not something atheists would do in my family, and nor in theirs. Sorry if your experience was different.I really can’t address claims of ghosts having a party at the house. Seems rude they didn’t invite you folks, though. Was there any consumption of psychedelic drugs that might have been a factor? Did folks decide to yuk it up over mixed drinks before the party really started?
