If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't assassinate the people who could make it happen

[proudveteran06]

You do this for a " job?" Then briefly explain what Arafat did to " negotiate" and what offers he made that Israel turned down. It's a simple request. Can't do it because it never happened. It's your Claim that he was a " Great Negotiator". Just provide one link of his proposals. The idea that you claim you're the expert, can't provide anything to back it up, and that everyone who is Pro- Israel is lying doesn't cut any ice around here.

I don't claim to be an expert, PV, I just claim a working knowledge of the conflict. Hence, I do sometimes find it tiring with people who have no knowledge of the conflict beyond 10 minutes spent reading some blog.

It takes years to undertand this conflict, and most of us who spend years on it end up feeling that the more we study, the less we really understand for sure.

Arafat didn't make a lot of proposals at Camp David, because that wasn't how the negotiation was really structured. But then negotiation isn't only about making offers. Arafat's skill was more to do with how he listened, responded and pressed for a better deal.

You could try reading something like Friedmann's 'Beirut to Jerusalem', as that covers this in some detail, from memory.

Definition of NEGOTIATE
intransitive verb
: to confer with another so as to arrive at the settlement of some matter
transitive verb
1
a: to deal with (some matter or affair that requires ability for its successful handling) : manage
b: to arrange for or bring about through conference, discussion, and compromise <negotiate a treaty>

Arafat didn't know this? Maybe you're right.... His brain was infested with the AIDS VIRUS.

 

[Saigon]

PV -

None of this is difficult for me to explain to you - but at this stage you aren't listening, and you aren't interested.

Hence, there is no point spending time explaining things for you.

 

[proudveteran06]

PV -

None of this is difficult for me to explain to you - but at this stage you aren't listening, and you aren't interested.

Hence, there is no point spending time explaining things for you.

Can't come up with just ONE small example of what Arafat offered that Israel rejected? That's because it never happened. Another Pro- Palestinian liar

 

[proudveteran06]

Is anyone familiar with what Arafat " offered" that Israel rejected ? There will be no response because it never happened

 

[Saigon]

PV -

There will be no response because you are not listening.

Give it some thought, and if you can at some point you can discuss this without the stop the chest-beating and posturing, I'll explain it to you. It's not difficult, but you'll need to stop pretending you know the in's and out's of Camp David when you very obviously don't.

 

[proudveteran06]

PV -

There will be no response because you are not listening.

Give it some thought, and if you can at some point you can discuss this without the stop the chest-beating and posturing, I'll explain it to you. It's not difficult, but you'll need to stop pretending you know the in's and out's of Camp David when you very obviously don't.

Sugesting that Arafat didn't get EVERYTHING he wanted?

1) When people " negotiate" about ANYTHING in life nobody gets their way 100%

2) What is more important; Where is his Counter Offer? It's a fair question. Answer; He never gave one

 

[irosie91]

long ago ---I read an account----of a witness who claimed
arafart said something like "if I accept I will be dead"
which I took to mean he was concerned about being
assassinated-------and that arafart walked out on
the discussions ------and MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
tried to physically restrain him ?????

 

[Saigon]

long ago ---I read an account----of a witness who claimed
arafart said something like "if I accept I will be dead"
which I took to mean he was concerned about being
assassinated-------and that arafart walked out on
the discussions ------and MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
tried to physically restrain him ?????

I wouldn't want to be restrained by that women??!!

I don't know if the story is true (I doubt it, actually), but Arafat was concerned that signing a poor deal would see him case as someone who had sold out. This was true for the Israelis as well, of course; as we saw with the Gaza pull-out, it is one thing for politicians to sign a document, another for the public to accept it.

I think Arafat knew the Camp David was not good enough for him to parade as a personal triumph, hence he walked away from it.

I do think all sides at Camp David did their best, and Clinton did wonderful work bringing the parties together, but at the end of the day they needed another round of negotiations, and then I think they might have reached a deal. Had Israel dropped the road access zones mentioned earlier, and the Palestinians been willing to accept the loss of airspace and the Jordan border, they may have got there.

 

[P F Tinmore]

iRosie -

At Camp David the issue was contiguity within the West Bank.

The Israeli offer included roads from Israeli proper to remaining Israeli West Bank settlements (e.g. Gilo) and 'free fire zones' along those roads. It also denied Palestine control of the Jordanian border. What this meant was that the West Bank would be effectively cut into four islands, without land contact with each other. Palestine would have needed to build tunnels or bridges over or under the Israeli roads in order to drive from, say, Nablus to Ramallah.

The 'free fire zones' were massive, often extending far up hills overlooking the roads, and on some occasions meaning Palestinian villages would have needed to have been re-located. Israelis talking of the deal included those roads and free fire zones in the total amount of land offered Palestine, whereas Palestinians would never have been allowed into that land. Hence, the numbers report by Israeli sources tend to have been a bit skewed.

I agree that the Camp David offer was the best the Palestinians have ever received or likely ever will do, in that it did involve Palestine control of 85% of the West Bank, but even so - it was not a wonderful offer by amy means.

Sinai is not an option for Palestinians, as they have no historical connection with that land, but I agree that land south of Jericho could be traded.

Basically. Camp David was for Arafat to sign away the Palestinians rights while getting virtually nothing in return.

 

[Saigon]

Tinmore -

I once heard it said that Arafat was a man selling an antique watch he believed was worth $100, and who was offered $65.

Taking the money would mean being ridiculed by his enraged family; turning it down would mean he was left penniless.

I think history suggests he should have taken the money, but it could also be that had he taken the money, he would be regarded today as a fool and a sellout.

 

[Lipush]

If Israel wanted peace with the Palestinian's, they wouldn't assassinate the man with the power to make it happen. The last round of violence between the IDF and Gazan's, was prompted by...

"Israeli's assassination-by-drone of Hamas military commander Ahmed al-Jabari; the IDF said Jabari was a terrorist with "blood on his hands".

...which is no surprise, because they say that about everyone they kill.

However, aside from moonlighting as an "alleged" terrorist, al-Jabari's day job was "maintaining Israel's security in Gaza" by "enforc[ing] the multiplicity of armed organizations in the Gaza Strip. " Ergo, he was the man hired to stop the rocket fire into Israel.

He was also... " Israel's partner in the negotiations for the release of Gilad Shalit; it was he who ensured the captive soldier's welfare and safety, and it was he who saw to Shalit's return home last fall."

So what does Israel do with the very man who can acheive a true and lasting peace? They hit him with a drone strike and re-classify him as a terrorist. Which shows Israel doesn't want peace, they want their way. And because they're not getting it, they're taking it out on the Palestinian's.

Weeping over Ja'abari, Loiny?

Well, too bad!

Ja'abari should have known he's hanging over a very unstable thread once he gave the OK to kidnapp Aviva Shalit's son!

And kill other Israelis!

Nothing of peace ever came, or WILL come, from Hamas!

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinmore -

I once heard it said that Arafat was a man selling an antique watch he believed was worth $100, and who was offered $65.

Taking the money would mean being ridiculed by his enraged family; turning it down would mean he was left penniless.

I think history suggests he should have taken the money, but it could also be that had he taken the money, he would be regarded today as a fool and a sellout.

At least the dealing is not done.

 

[proudveteran06]

If Israel wanted peace with the Palestinian's, they wouldn't assassinate the man with the power to make it happen. The last round of violence between the IDF and Gazan's, was prompted by...

"Israeli's assassination-by-drone of Hamas military commander Ahmed al-Jabari; the IDF said Jabari was a terrorist with "blood on his hands".

...which is no surprise, because they say that about everyone they kill.

However, aside from moonlighting as an "alleged" terrorist, al-Jabari's day job was "maintaining Israel's security in Gaza" by "enforc[ing] the multiplicity of armed organizations in the Gaza Strip. " Ergo, he was the man hired to stop the rocket fire into Israel.

He was also... " Israel's partner in the negotiations for the release of Gilad Shalit; it was he who ensured the captive soldier's welfare and safety, and it was he who saw to Shalit's return home last fall."

So what does Israel do with the very man who can acheive a true and lasting peace? They hit him with a drone strike and re-classify him as a terrorist. Which shows Israel doesn't want peace, they want their way. And because they're not getting it, they're taking it out on the Palestinian's.

Weeping over Ja'abari, Loiny?

Well, too bad!

Ja'abari should have known he's hanging over a very unstable thread once he gave the OK to kidnapp Aviva Shalit's son!

And kill other Israelis!

Nothing of peace ever came, or WILL come, from Hamas!

http://Click here: Pressure Points » What Does Hamas Want?


Print Email Share


Cite

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What Does Hamas Want?

by Elliott Abrams
December 9, 2012


Share


22

42

Frequently I have found that when I mention the odious Hamas “Charter” as the best insight into the group’s current goals, the response is that the Charter is nearly 25 years old and doesn’t mean much nowadays.

In that context the words of Hamas’s two top leaders in the past few weeks deserve attention.

On November 26, Mahmoud al-Zahhar (a Hamas co-founder and influential leader) said this “Anyone who wants to liberate Palestine by complaining [to the International Criminal Court] – I will send him handkerchiefs to wipe his tears. Whoever wants to really liberate Palestine should pick up a gun.”

Khaled Meshal is the top political leader of Hamas, and entered Gaza for the first time this weekend. Here are some of his remarks to a mass rally celebrating Hamas’s 25th anniversary:


Palestine, from the river to the sea, from north to south, is our land. Not an inch of it can be conceded. We cannot recognize the legitimacy of Israel’s occupation of Palestine. There is no legitimacy to occupation, and therefore no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take. Liberating Palestine, all of Palestine, is a duty, a right and a goal….we will liberate [Jerusalem] inch by inch, stone by stone, Islamic and Christian holy places. Israel has no right in Jerusalem….

As to the recent UN vote giving “Palestine” the status of “non-member state,” Meshal said:


Liberation first, then the state. The real state is the product of liberation, not the product of negotiations. Holy war and armed resistance are the real and right path to liberation and recovery of rights.

All these remarks suggest that the mentality that produced the Charter, a venomous anti-Semitic document that makes compromise impossible, remains dominant. For that reason, I wonder why anyone who seeks peace would promote reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas and seek to bring Hamas into the governing of the PLO and the Palestinian Authority. Given Hamas’s goals, such a role for the terrorist group would make Israeli-Palestinian cooperation impossible–not just peace negotiations but the day to day cooperation that exists with respect to the West Bank.

The words of Meshal and al-Zahhar are also a reminder of why Hamas persists, year after year, in firing rockets, mortars, and missiles at civilian targets in Israel. Hamas commits terrorist acts because it is wedded to violence and terror, and believes them fully justified in pursuing its goal of driving the Jews out of what they call “Israel” and Hamas calls “Palestine.” Meshal’s claim that “not an inch of it can be conceded” and Al-Zahhar’s urging to “pick up a gun” demonstrate yet again what Hamas wants and how it plans to get there.


This is what they want. Two more reasons why the 67 Borders which never existed or " Right of RETURN" is never going to happen

 

[P F Tinmore]

If Israel wanted peace with the Palestinian's, they wouldn't assassinate the man with the power to make it happen. The last round of violence between the IDF and Gazan's, was prompted by......which is no surprise, because they say that about everyone they kill.

However, aside from moonlighting as an "alleged" terrorist, al-Jabari's day job was "maintaining Israel's security in Gaza" by "enforc[ing] the multiplicity of armed organizations in the Gaza Strip. " Ergo, he was the man hired to stop the rocket fire into Israel.

He was also... " Israel's partner in the negotiations for the release of Gilad Shalit; it was he who ensured the captive soldier's welfare and safety, and it was he who saw to Shalit's return home last fall."

So what does Israel do with the very man who can acheive a true and lasting peace? They hit him with a drone strike and re-classify him as a terrorist. Which shows Israel doesn't want peace, they want their way. And because they're not getting it, they're taking it out on the Palestinian's.

Weeping over Ja'abari, Loiny?

Well, too bad!

Ja'abari should have known he's hanging over a very unstable thread once he gave the OK to kidnapp Aviva Shalit's son!

And kill other Israelis!

Nothing of peace ever came, or WILL come, from Hamas!

http://Click here: Pressure Points » What Does Hamas Want?


Print Email Share


Cite

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What Does Hamas Want?

by Elliott Abrams
December 9, 2012


Share


22

42

Frequently I have found that when I mention the odious Hamas “Charter” as the best insight into the group’s current goals, the response is that the Charter is nearly 25 years old and doesn’t mean much nowadays.

In that context the words of Hamas’s two top leaders in the past few weeks deserve attention.

On November 26, Mahmoud al-Zahhar (a Hamas co-founder and influential leader) said this “Anyone who wants to liberate Palestine by complaining [to the International Criminal Court] – I will send him handkerchiefs to wipe his tears. Whoever wants to really liberate Palestine should pick up a gun.”

Khaled Meshal is the top political leader of Hamas, and entered Gaza for the first time this weekend. Here are some of his remarks to a mass rally celebrating Hamas’s 25th anniversary:


Palestine, from the river to the sea, from north to south, is our land. Not an inch of it can be conceded. We cannot recognize the legitimacy of Israel’s occupation of Palestine. There is no legitimacy to occupation, and therefore no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take. Liberating Palestine, all of Palestine, is a duty, a right and a goal….we will liberate [Jerusalem] inch by inch, stone by stone, Islamic and Christian holy places. Israel has no right in Jerusalem….

As to the recent UN vote giving “Palestine” the status of “non-member state,” Meshal said:


Liberation first, then the state. The real state is the product of liberation, not the product of negotiations. Holy war and armed resistance are the real and right path to liberation and recovery of rights.

All these remarks suggest that the mentality that produced the Charter, a venomous anti-Semitic document that makes compromise impossible, remains dominant. For that reason, I wonder why anyone who seeks peace would promote reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas and seek to bring Hamas into the governing of the PLO and the Palestinian Authority. Given Hamas’s goals, such a role for the terrorist group would make Israeli-Palestinian cooperation impossible–not just peace negotiations but the day to day cooperation that exists with respect to the West Bank.

The words of Meshal and al-Zahhar are also a reminder of why Hamas persists, year after year, in firing rockets, mortars, and missiles at civilian targets in Israel. Hamas commits terrorist acts because it is wedded to violence and terror, and believes them fully justified in pursuing its goal of driving the Jews out of what they call “Israel” and Hamas calls “Palestine.” Meshal’s claim that “not an inch of it can be conceded” and Al-Zahhar’s urging to “pick up a gun” demonstrate yet again what Hamas wants and how it plans to get there.


This is what they want. Two more reasons why the 67 Borders which never existed or " Right of RETURN" is never going to happen

Palestine, from the river to the sea, from north to south, is our land. Not an inch of it can be conceded. We cannot recognize the legitimacy of Israel’s occupation of Palestine. There is no legitimacy to occupation, and therefore no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take. Liberating Palestine, all of Palestine, is a duty, a right and a goal….we will liberate [Jerusalem] inch by inch, stone by stone, Islamic and Christian holy places. Israel has no right in Jerusalem….

Islamic and Christian holy places.

Hmmm.

 

[proudveteran06]

Weeping over Ja'abari, Loiny?

Well, too bad!

Ja'abari should have known he's hanging over a very unstable thread once he gave the OK to kidnapp Aviva Shalit's son!

And kill other Israelis!

Nothing of peace ever came, or WILL come, from Hamas!

http://Click here: Pressure Points » What Does Hamas Want?


Print Email Share


Cite

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What Does Hamas Want?

by Elliott Abrams
December 9, 2012


Share


22

42

Frequently I have found that when I mention the odious Hamas “Charter” as the best insight into the group’s current goals, the response is that the Charter is nearly 25 years old and doesn’t mean much nowadays.

In that context the words of Hamas’s two top leaders in the past few weeks deserve attention.

On November 26, Mahmoud al-Zahhar (a Hamas co-founder and influential leader) said this “Anyone who wants to liberate Palestine by complaining [to the International Criminal Court] – I will send him handkerchiefs to wipe his tears. Whoever wants to really liberate Palestine should pick up a gun.”

Khaled Meshal is the top political leader of Hamas, and entered Gaza for the first time this weekend. Here are some of his remarks to a mass rally celebrating Hamas’s 25th anniversary:


Palestine, from the river to the sea, from north to south, is our land. Not an inch of it can be conceded. We cannot recognize the legitimacy of Israel’s occupation of Palestine. There is no legitimacy to occupation, and therefore no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take. Liberating Palestine, all of Palestine, is a duty, a right and a goal….we will liberate [Jerusalem] inch by inch, stone by stone, Islamic and Christian holy places. Israel has no right in Jerusalem….

As to the recent UN vote giving “Palestine” the status of “non-member state,” Meshal said:


Liberation first, then the state. The real state is the product of liberation, not the product of negotiations. Holy war and armed resistance are the real and right path to liberation and recovery of rights.

All these remarks suggest that the mentality that produced the Charter, a venomous anti-Semitic document that makes compromise impossible, remains dominant. For that reason, I wonder why anyone who seeks peace would promote reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas and seek to bring Hamas into the governing of the PLO and the Palestinian Authority. Given Hamas’s goals, such a role for the terrorist group would make Israeli-Palestinian cooperation impossible–not just peace negotiations but the day to day cooperation that exists with respect to the West Bank.

The words of Meshal and al-Zahhar are also a reminder of why Hamas persists, year after year, in firing rockets, mortars, and missiles at civilian targets in Israel. Hamas commits terrorist acts because it is wedded to violence and terror, and believes them fully justified in pursuing its goal of driving the Jews out of what they call “Israel” and Hamas calls “Palestine.” Meshal’s claim that “not an inch of it can be conceded” and Al-Zahhar’s urging to “pick up a gun” demonstrate yet again what Hamas wants and how it plans to get there.


This is what they want. Two more reasons why the 67 Borders which never existed or " Right of RETURN" is never going to happen

Palestine, from the river to the sea, from north to south, is our land. Not an inch of it can be conceded. We cannot recognize the legitimacy of Israel’s occupation of Palestine. There is no legitimacy to occupation, and therefore no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take. Liberating Palestine, all of Palestine, is a duty, a right and a goal….we will liberate [Jerusalem] inch by inch, stone by stone, Islamic and Christian holy places. Israel has no right in Jerusalem….

Islamic and Christian holy places.

Hmmm.

That's all the old man who believes the U.N. should go back to 1922 has to say lol Consider the source Like it or not, the JEWISH STATE is here to stay