If someone slashes your face with a knife, do you have the Right to shoot them?

[2aguy]

Most people, would be in shock unable to actually carry out the act of aiming , taking a shot and making that shot effective enough to cause death, unless like you they were trained for the situation and then that is taken into account when they are on trial for killing another.

To most if not all the gun nutters posting on here, simply having a gun on your person makes you fucking superman.

Surprise never happens. Shock from the ferocity of an attack never happens. Adrenaline never surges through your system and makes your hands shake and your pulse soar to 180 bpm.

On top of that, a citizen with a gun would never even MISS a target. Not possible.

So like I said, a citizen carrying a gun is virtually superman or superwoman. At least according to gun nutters on here.

And of course you are talking out of your ass. Try actually studying self defense with guns....you would actually learn something about the subject.

 

[2aguy]

But if not properly licensed to do so, isn't carrying a firearm a chargeable offense in NYC? So shooting the perp makes the victim liable to be charged also, no?

More on this issue:

Back in the 1970s a medical electronics repair technician named Bernhard Goetz often traveled by subway during the early morning hours with expensive test equipment. After being assaulted and robbed twice Goetz applied for a carry permit but was denied. So he took a pistol course, obtained and carried an illegal .38 revolver.

One night at 2AM, while riding on a deserted subway train, Goetz was approached and surrounded by five youths who menacingly demanded money from him. Goetz drew his illegal gun and shot three of them, paralyzing one, and the other two fled. Goetz then got off the train and disappeared.

This incident became a sensation and for several months Goetz was celebrated by New Yorkers as the "Mystery Shooter" -- a genuine folk hero.

Believing his celebrity would protect him from prosecution, Goetz surrendered after three months. He was tried and sentenced to a one year prison term. But all the detectives assigned to the shooting quietly agreed they really made no effort to find the "Mystery Shooter." And most insiders agree that Goetz's mistake was disappearing instead of just waiting for the police and surrendering himself -- because he surely would have been acquitted for the shooting and gotten a slap on the wrist for the illegal gun.

And I believe you would be wrong.......he shot and paralyzed the one thug out of the group that didn't have a previous criminal record....if my memory of the case is accurate......his goose was cooked as soon as the first shot was fired.....

 

[JimBowie1958]

Defense of another will not stand to exculpate the shooter. .

Since when does defending another life NOT exculpate the accused?

According to what was posted the perp was running away who was being defended?

A stranger down the street toward whom the gutter snipe with the knife was fleeing.

 

[Alex.]

Defense of another will not stand to exculpate the shooter. .

Since when does defending another life NOT exculpate the accused?

According to what was posted the perp was running away who was being defended?

A stranger down the street toward whom the gutter snipe with the knife was fleeing.

was that a threat?

 

[MikeK]

And I believe you would be wrong.......he shot and paralyzed the one thug out of the group that didn't have a previous criminal record....if my memory of the case is accurate......his goose was cooked as soon as the first shot was fired.....

I don't know what you mean by gooses being cooked, but I hope you didn't misinterpret my comment as suggesting Goetz was completely innocent.

First, the fact that the one individual whom Goetz shot had no prior criminal record does not mean he was not complicit in an attempted robbery. He was, which was established by the implicit confessions of the other two. E.g., surrounding someone in a deserted subway car is presumptive attempted robbery, which is what they admitted to and which entirely justified Goetz's action in defending himself. The fact that he did it with an illegal gun is secondary.

The fact that Goetz used an illegal gun is entirely separate from what he did with it, which was perfectly legal -- with two exceptions: One is his fourth shot, the one which struck one fleeing robber in the back and paralyzed him, was unnecessary (but could be explained as the result of panic), the other, and most condemning, is the fact that rather than wait for the arrival of police Goetz chose to abscond -- and he remained the "Mystery Shooter" for several months.

There was absolutely nothing illegal about Goetz's action in shooting those three ghetto rats, two of whom had prior records for robbery. He was defending himself. As far as the illegal gun is concerned, which is what he ultimately was imprisoned for, was separate from what he did with it. And because of the continually rising public celebration of the "Mystery Shooter" it was a foregone conclusion that if Goetz had waited for the police the prosecutor would have recommended dismissal of the gun charge and every voice in the media was certain the court would have complied.

But Goetz made two mistakes. One, he absconded. Two, he turned himself in.

Emboldened by his folk hero status he virtually challenged the System to prosecute him -- leaving the prosecutor and the court no choice but to try, convict and sentence him to a year on Rikers Island.

 

[MikeK]

Something about the Goetz "Mystery Shooter" event that should be mentioned here is during a six month period surrounding that incident subway crime was reduced to near zero. Not one reported incident of robbery, attempted robbery or sexual assault.

Applications for CCW increased dramatically (but remained nearly impossible to obtain).

 

[Unkotare]

Yes.....they are having an epidemic of face slashings in New York, the city that makes it almost impossible for it's citizens to exercise their Constitutional Right to carry a gun for self defense. The democrats there are following the democrats of the past and using taxes, fines and fees, and paperwork delays to do this. The old democrats used these same tactics to keep blacks from exercising their right to vote.

so.......with an epidemic of face slashings....do you have the Right to shoot someone who slashes you in the face?

Another New York Woman Has Face Slashed in Sneak Attack - Breitbart

Another woman has had her face viciously slashed in a sneak attack on a New York street, making the attack the 471st such slashing this year.

20-year-old Paula Delos Santos told the media she has departed the No. 2 train in the Bronx when a Hispanic man walked up behind her, slashed her in the face, knocked her to the ground, kicked her, then stole her purse and ran off.

“It all happened very quickly. I was terrified, very frantic, hysterical. I had blood all over me. I thought it was because he kicked me in the face,” the young student told the New York Post.

“All of a sudden, I feel a presence behind me, so I turn to look and he grabbed my phone, and my first instinct was to grasp on tighter to the phone,” Santos said. “I think he took that as me trying to fight back. I didn’t really see what he cut me with, he just slashed my cheek.”

Santo described her attacker as a Hispanic man, standing five-foot-five, in his thirties, and wearing a beanie. He is suspected of using a box cutter razor blade on the victim. The vicious criminal got away with the young woman’s identification, cash, and cell phone.

Yes

 

[Jarlaxle]

Your defense attorney will have an easier time defending you IF you dont shoot them in the back. Something about shooting someone when they are running away from you might cause the shooter a problem.

Not if he/she is justified in shooting him.

In the topic example, shooting this slasher in the back as he's escaping would be perfectly justifiable because of the imminent threat he represents. But if there are a lot of witnesses around it is advisable to verbally command him to stop before pulling the trigger.

At least before the second shot.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Defense of another will not stand to exculpate the shooter. .

Since when does defending another life NOT exculpate the accused?

According to what was posted the perp was running away who was being defended?

The next woman he decides to practice his facial surgery on.

 

[Jarlaxle]

But if not properly licensed to do so, isn't carrying a firearm a chargeable offense in NYC? So shooting the perp makes the victim liable to be charged also, no?

More on this issue:

Back in the 1970s a medical electronics repair technician named Bernhard Goetz often traveled by subway during the early morning hours with expensive test equipment. After being assaulted and robbed twice Goetz applied for a carry permit but was denied. So he took a pistol course, obtained and carried an illegal .38 revolver.

One night at 2AM, while riding on a deserted subway train, Goetz was approached and surrounded by five youths who menacingly demanded money from him. Goetz drew his illegal gun and shot three of them, paralyzing one, and the other two fled. Goetz then got off the train and disappeared.

This incident became a sensation and for several months Goetz was celebrated by New Yorkers as the "Mystery Shooter" -- a genuine folk hero.

Believing his celebrity would protect him from prosecution, Goetz surrendered after three months. He was tried and sentenced to a one year prison term. But all the detectives assigned to the shooting quietly agreed they really made no effort to find the "Mystery Shooter." And most insiders agree that Goetz's mistake was disappearing instead of just waiting for the police and surrendering himself -- because he surely would have been acquitted for the shooting and gotten a slap on the wrist for the illegal gun.

No, the shame was that...
1) None of the three thugs died.
2) He didn't just keep quiet.

 

[Alex.]

Defense of another will not stand to exculpate the shooter. .

Since when does defending another life NOT exculpate the accused?

According to what was posted the perp was running away who was being defended?

The next woman he decides to practice his facial surgery on.

Speculation

 

[Jarlaxle]

A thug lying facedown and bleeding out from gunshot wounds is a good thing.

 

[MikeK]

New York is a such a wonderful place to avoid.

It's a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there...

It's a nice place to live, too -- if you can afford it. A nice house or apartment in the right neighborhood can be a great pleasure. But last I heard there are apartments in New York City selling for $60 million and some renting for $75k a month. From that you can project downward on the average rates.

When I lived in New York City it was affordable. No more. I deeply regret selling the brownstone I owned (before gentrification took hold). I bought it for $17k in 1972, renovated it, sold it in 1978 for $140k (when I left Brooklyn). Last I heard it was appraised at over $700k -- and that was about five or more years ago.

 

[Jackson]

I wouldn't hesitate shooting them even after the slashing. I would claim trauma. The jury would vote for me...I would hope.

 

[MikeK]

To most if not all the gun nutters posting on here, simply having a gun on your person makes you fucking superman.

Surprise never happens. Shock from the ferocity of an attack never happens. Adrenaline never surges through your system and makes your hands shake and your pulse soar to 180 bpm.

On top of that, a citizen with a gun would never even MISS a target. Not possible.

So like I said, a citizen carrying a gun is virtually superman or superwoman. At least according to gun nutters on here.

You are mostly correct about the nervous and adrenaline effect of a surprisingly violent situation, which is why I stress the importance of motivated and varying levels of training for anyone who owns and, especially, carries a gun.

A proper training regimen includes drill, which is critically important for enabling the proper response to highly stressful circumstances. Drill simply means repetition, which embeds the mechanics of response to a specific type of situation in a subject's memory. Drill enables one to respond to stimulus without needing to think about what to do.

I know that most pro-gun individuals, especially those who own/carry guns and have done a great deal of shooting, disagree with me on this issue, but that's because they truly believe knowing how to shoot a gun and having done a lot of that is enough. But properly trained individuals know better because they have seen the difference repetition makes in their response timing and the very important shoot/don't shoot decision-making.

 

[Wildman]

unequivically YES!!, fire away and empty the gun of ammo in your attacker, when questioned you simply say, i do not recall what happened, all i remember is my face is bleeding profusely, a man lying on the sidewalk, dead and bleeding, and i am standing there with a gun in hand, i just blacked out i guess, i just do not remember.

 

[2aguy]

To most if not all the gun nutters posting on here, simply having a gun on your person makes you fucking superman.

Surprise never happens. Shock from the ferocity of an attack never happens. Adrenaline never surges through your system and makes your hands shake and your pulse soar to 180 bpm.

On top of that, a citizen with a gun would never even MISS a target. Not possible.

So like I said, a citizen carrying a gun is virtually superman or superwoman. At least according to gun nutters on here.

You are mostly correct about the nervous and adrenaline effect of a surprisingly violent situation, which is why I stress the importance of motivated and varying levels of training for anyone who owns and, especially, carries a gun.

A proper training regimen includes drill, which is critically important for enabling the proper response to highly stressful circumstances. Drill simply means repetition, which embeds the mechanics of response to a specific type of situation in a subject's memory. Drill enables one to respond to stimulus without needing to think about what to do.

I know that most pro-gun individuals, especially those who own/carry guns and have done a great deal of shooting, disagree with me on this issue, but that's because they truly believe knowing how to shoot a gun and having done a lot of that is enough. But properly trained individuals know better because they have seen the difference repetition makes in their response timing and the very important shoot/don't shoot decision-making.

No....we agree with you on the training and how important it is. However, we also understand the bigger problem.....anti gun activists passing laws mandating training levels that will bar normal people from ever owning or carrying guns. We know how they think and what they want and the tactics they will use to achieve those ends.....if you give them power to enact training requirements...the poor will never be able to own guns, and they are the ones who most need guns for self defense.

 

[2aguy]

To most if not all the gun nutters posting on here, simply having a gun on your person makes you fucking superman.

Surprise never happens. Shock from the ferocity of an attack never happens. Adrenaline never surges through your system and makes your hands shake and your pulse soar to 180 bpm.

On top of that, a citizen with a gun would never even MISS a target. Not possible.

So like I said, a citizen carrying a gun is virtually superman or superwoman. At least according to gun nutters on here.

You are mostly correct about the nervous and adrenaline effect of a surprisingly violent situation, which is why I stress the importance of motivated and varying levels of training for anyone who owns and, especially, carries a gun.

A proper training regimen includes drill, which is critically important for enabling the proper response to highly stressful circumstances. Drill simply means repetition, which embeds the mechanics of response to a specific type of situation in a subject's memory. Drill enables one to respond to stimulus without needing to think about what to do.

I know that most pro-gun individuals, especially those who own/carry guns and have done a great deal of shooting, disagree with me on this issue, but that's because they truly believe knowing how to shoot a gun and having done a lot of that is enough. But properly trained individuals know better because they have seen the difference repetition makes in their response timing and the very important shoot/don't shoot decision-making.

I think this pretty much sums up the argument against allowing the anti gun extremists to set up training mandates....

Should You Get Training Before You Buy A Gun? | Extrano's Alley, more than a gun blog



Someone, who would probably like to be named, dropped a scolding contact post because I do not emphasize “the necessity of getting professional training before you buy a gun.”

By “professional,” I provisionally assume the gent was talking police academy level training, but perhaps not.

Thee are four primary reasons I do not recommend that level, or any level, of firearms training before you purchase a gun.

To begin with, decent firearms trainers are not common. I know who to call if someone asks about a trainer, but th last person who asked me livers almost 200 mils from the couple I would recommend, and three days training would cost more than $500, involve three days motel rent in a resort area, meals, and so on. As a practical matter, training for two would cost almost $1,000.

Many Americans do not have a firearms trainer of any sort within any reasonable distance or at an affordable cost. I would love to be able to ship everyone off to Gunsite, but relatively few, and particularity those most in need of the protection a gun offers, cab afford professional training.

Third, safety training does not require a days time and someone yelling in your ear to never point a gun at something you do not intend to destroy.

Most Americans are smart enough to pick up the basics of gun safety in the first five minutes of a video lesson on safety – with another five or ten minutes of cautionaries about always being sure of what is behind your target before you touch the trigger.

Good advice – but useless when a crazy dude swinging a machete and screaming curses at all members of your ethnic group has you in his sights.

Fourth, virtually every American is smart enough to learn the basics of gun handling from a friend or relative, at whatever improvised range circumstances force them to use. Yes, it’s great to go to a commercial range, have targets run out to whatever range you select and back to your hand when you have finished a shot string. But for wide areas of America, such facilities are as scarce as 200 pound sabertooth frogs. Most of us are extremely fortunate to have an old gravel pit we can shoot in.

And fifth, most of the time “expert training” involves “the rules of engagement” in an activity that has one goal, survival. As a late friend told me, “As long as he’s coming, you can shoot.” That is, if you have credible reason to believer your life, or some other citizen’s life is in immediate peril, you can shoot in self defense. Again, that concept is not difficult to understand at all.

Nor is the corollary, “Once the attack has stopped, however briefly, you must stop firing.”

All of this can be learned at home, without professional, and certainly without Academy level training.

More than fifty years ago, an old DC desk Sarge told a young woman to “Buy an gun, learn to use it, and use it if you have to. You will know when you have to.”

The message is clear. Buy a gun. Learn to use it. Use it if you have to. And your built in survival mechanism will recognize when your life is in peril, even if you do not.

So yes, training is nice, if it is feasible. But for many, perhaps a majority, of Americans, training is unavailable or unaffordable.

So my advice remains the same. When you are ready to buy a gun go to a dealers and buy one that is comfortable in your hand. If you can, try firing a gun in that gun’s caliber, to make sure you are not intimidated by noise and recoil. If you are, go to a less powerful cartridge.

If the one that fits your hand is a semi-automatic make sure you can work the slide to put the first cartridge in the chamber, and to clear the gun when you need to handle it.

Take it home, empty, and learn to use the gun at leisure. Youtube has videos of almost every gun and of almost every aspect of gun handling and gun safety. Pick out one, and if it is not clear to you, try another teacher’s videos.

Learn the “Four Rules” and observe them wherever it is possible. Practice them so they become second nature.

Get your permit and carry. A gun out of sight and reach of children is of no use at your workplace parking lot. The weight of a gun is nothing compared to the weight of regret.

And don’t worry. You will be orders of magnitude safer with a gun than without one. Especially if you can hit a soup can at ten feet.

Stranger

 

[MikeK]

[...]

So yes, training is nice, if it is feasible. But for many, perhaps a majority, of Americans, training is unavailable or unaffordable.

[...]

That is the present situation -- but it isn't carved in stone.

At the present time, in most heavily populated areas of the U.S. it is next to impossible to obtain a carry permit. This is a bad situation which is getting worse every day, as the recent events in Cologne and Paris have clearly shown. More than ever it is important for a substantial percentage of Americans to be armed!

This fact must be brought to the attention of our Congressional representatives who must be pressured by public demand to institute federal laws relaxing the requirements for obtaining CCW. In addition to that, the federal government should put in place a subsidized training program for all civilian CCW applicants. The cost of this training should be affordable and available to anyone who wishes to carry a gun.

This is the era of terrorism. Whether or not we wish to acknowledge it we are engaged in the initial stage of a new kind of war in which a very real invasion has quietly begun. All who have become conditioned by generations of tranquil existence are in for a rude awakening, one aspect of which is the fact that the police will not be able to protect them from the kind of attacks that will come. The American citizen, men in particular, must start preparing to defend their homes, their loved ones, themselves and those around them. And the Congress must be made to facilitate that need!

It time for American citizens to be armed, trained and ready to protect themselves, their friends and others from an emerging army of extremely dangerous religionists who are perfectly willing to die just to strike at them.

I hope you won't think I'm a raving paranoiac in calling attention to this. What is happening in Germany, France, Denmark and in other European cities will soon be happening here.

 

[MikeK]

unequivically YES!!, fire away and empty the gun of ammo in your attacker, when questioned you simply say, i do not recall what happened, all i remember is my face is bleeding profusely, a man lying on the sidewalk, dead and bleeding, and i am standing there with a gun in hand, i just blacked out i guess, i just do not remember.

It's not that simple, which is why training is necessary and far more important than most people realize.