If we rule out life elsewhere in our Solar System, why not seed it ourselves?

[ReinyDays]

So ... Fort Fun's article was written for Middle School students ... where the kids think soil and dirt taste alike, they must be the same thing ... well, they're not ...

Thus my question "Where did Martian soil come from?" ...

Dirt is dirt ... silicon dioxide ... Mars is covered in the crap ... every square bleeding inch ... clay, loam, sand ... soil include humus, organic material ... bacteria, rotting plant material, the neighbor's dogshit, previous homeowner's murder victims ...

Mars has no soil ... no rotting organic material in the dirt ... and Martian dirt itself has been untouched by any form of life ... something that cannot be said of anything the kids used in their little astrobiology experiment ... yes, we can sterilize soil, but that lasts about two second and we're contaminated again ... something we avoid on Mars ...

As I posted above ... the REAL challenge is NOT seeding life on Mars ... researches had quite the scare during the Viking Missions ... images of what were thought to be terrestrial bacteria growing on the lander leg ... I forget offhand what the blob turned out to be, but not life ...

 

[Grumblenuts]

The meaning of "oxidizer" has clearly changed for the better since we were in school.

Examples of electron acceptors include oxygen, nitrate, iron (III), manganese (IV), sulfate, carbon dioxide, or in some microorganisms the chlorinated solvents such as tetrachloroethylene (PCE), trichloroethylene (TCE), dichloroethene (DCE), and vinyl chloride (VC). These reactions are of interest not only because they allow organisms to obtain energy, but also because they are involved in the natural biodegradation of organic contaminants. When clean-up professionals use monitored natural attenuation to clean up contaminated sites, biodegradation is one of the major contributing processes

My online dictionary is also at a loss, recognizing precious few of those words.

 

[ReinyDays]

The meaning of "oxidizer" has clearly changed for the better since we were in school.

Examples of electron acceptors include oxygen, nitrate, iron (III), manganese (IV), sulfate, carbon dioxide, or in some microorganisms the chlorinated solvents such as tetrachloroethylene (PCE), trichloroethylene (TCE), dichloroethene (DCE), and vinyl chloride (VC). These reactions are of interest not only because they allow organisms to obtain energy, but also because they are involved in the natural biodegradation of organic contaminants. When clean-up professionals use monitored natural attenuation to clean up contaminated sites, biodegradation is one of the major contributing processes

My online dictionary is also at a loss, recognizing precious few of those words.

Many reactions in organic chemistry are redox reactions due to changes in oxidation states but without distinct electron transfer. For example, during the combustion of wood with molecular oxygen, the oxidation state of carbon atoms in the wood increases and that of oxygen atoms decreases as carbon dioxide and water are formed. The oxygen atoms undergo reduction, formally gaining electrons, while the carbon atoms undergo oxidation, losing electrons. Thus oxygen is the oxidizing agent and carbon is the reducing agent in this reaction.

-- Redox (Wikileaks)

 

[ReinyDays]

The meaning of "oxidizer" has clearly changed for the better since we were in school.

Examples of electron acceptors include oxygen, nitrate, iron (III), manganese (IV), sulfate, carbon dioxide, or in some microorganisms the chlorinated solvents such as tetrachloroethylene (PCE), trichloroethylene (TCE), dichloroethene (DCE), and vinyl chloride (VC). These reactions are of interest not only because they allow organisms to obtain energy, but also because they are involved in the natural biodegradation of organic contaminants. When clean-up professionals use monitored natural attenuation to clean up contaminated sites, biodegradation is one of the major contributing processes

My online dictionary is also at a loss, recognizing precious few of those words.

Many reactions in organic chemistry are redox reactions due to changes in oxidation states but without distinct electron transfer. For example, during the combustion of wood with molecular oxygen, the oxidation state of carbon atoms in the wood increases and that of oxygen atoms decreases as carbon dioxide and water are formed. The oxygen atoms undergo reduction, formally gaining electrons, while the carbon atoms undergo oxidation, losing electrons. Thus oxygen is the oxidizing agent and carbon is the reducing agent in this reaction.

-- Redox (Wikileaks)

We'll need to check the electro-negativity charts so see if carbon dioxide can oxidize iron ... not sure I want to go down that rabbit hole ...

 

[Grumblenuts]

The meaning of "oxidizer" has clearly changed for the better since we were in school.

Examples of electron acceptors include oxygen, nitrate, iron (III), manganese (IV), sulfate, carbon dioxide, or in some microorganisms the chlorinated solvents such as tetrachloroethylene (PCE), trichloroethylene (TCE), dichloroethene (DCE), and vinyl chloride (VC). These reactions are of interest not only because they allow organisms to obtain energy, but also because they are involved in the natural biodegradation of organic contaminants. When clean-up professionals use monitored natural attenuation to clean up contaminated sites, biodegradation is one of the major contributing processes

My online dictionary is also at a loss, recognizing precious few of those words.

Many reactions in organic chemistry are redox reactions due to changes in oxidation states but without distinct electron transfer. For example, during the combustion of wood with molecular oxygen, the oxidation state of carbon atoms in the wood increases and that of oxygen atoms decreases as carbon dioxide and water are formed. The oxygen atoms undergo reduction, formally gaining electrons, while the carbon atoms undergo oxidation, losing electrons. Thus oxygen is the oxidizing agent and carbon is the reducing agent in this reaction.

-- Redox (Wikileaks)

We'll need to check the electro-negativity charts so see if carbon dioxide can oxidize iron ... not sure I want to go down that rabbit hole ...

Keep in mind oxygen gas (O2) is not the only source of oxygen in air or water. Carbon dioxide (CO2) also contains oxygen. Carbon dioxide and water react to form weak carbonic acid. Carbonic acid is a better electrolyte than pure water. As the acid attacks the iron, water breaks into hydrogen and oxygen. Free oxygen and dissolved iron form iron oxide, releasing electrons, which can flow to another part of the metal. Once rusting starts, it continues to corrode the metal.

 

[ding]

Why not seed Europa's oceans with micro-organisms? Why not seed the ice caps of Mars with life? Why not seed the methane oceans of Titan with life?

What is the worst that could happen? Maybe we can even engineer the life we seed on each body in order to benefit ourselves. For example, we genetically engineer bacteria for Mars seeding that converts carbon dioxide to oxygen, leaving hydrocarbon waste for us to use to make energy.

You mean besides being a massive waste of money with no discernible objective?

Turns out the better question is why would we?

 

[ding]

far future generations.

Far, far, far, far, far, far, far future generations.

Exactly there isn't time. In 65 million years our Sun will become a 'red giant' and destroy much of the solar system.

We need to be investing all our efforts into building 'star ships', self sufficient in food and fuel so as we can go to "infinity and beyond".......well perhaps not quite that far. Indeed any old planet in any old solar system that passes the 'goldilocks test' will suffice

In 65 million years, human (if we can still call ourselves that) will no more resemble us than we resemble a sea sponge.

A star ship as we conceive it today would be as primitive flint tools.

Who knows what other Earth species might achieve sentience in that amount of time?

My money is on the dogs.

View attachment 378141

Way things are progressing, don't think we have much more than 65 years before Earth starts to become uninhabitable, never mind a 'red giant'.

Don't be a smuck - get on the truck!

The earth's gonna be just fine.

 

[ding]

far future generations.

Far, far, far, far, far, far, far future generations.

Exactly there isn't time. In 65 million years our Sun will become a 'red giant' and destroy much of the solar system.

We need to be investing all our efforts into building 'star ships', self sufficient in food and fuel so as we can go to "infinity and beyond".......well perhaps not quite that far. Indeed any old planet in any old solar system that passes the 'goldilocks test' will suffice

You might want to check that timeline. I believe it is off by a couple of orders of magnitude.

 

[ding]

I think it will be a few hundred years before man makes any serious attempt to go into space. When that day comes, it may be worth thinking about.

Of course, ethically, we would have to be 100% certain no life of any kind exists on another planet or moon before we seed our own on it.

Why must we be ethical about it?

 

[ding]

I'd rather rip my guts out of my body, douse them with kerosene and set them afire than agree with James Bond ... but, solar wind ...

I know exactly how you feel.

 

[ding]

The meaning of "oxidizer" has clearly changed for the better since we were in school.

Examples of electron acceptors include oxygen, nitrate, iron (III), manganese (IV), sulfate, carbon dioxide, or in some microorganisms the chlorinated solvents such as tetrachloroethylene (PCE), trichloroethylene (TCE), dichloroethene (DCE), and vinyl chloride (VC). These reactions are of interest not only because they allow organisms to obtain energy, but also because they are involved in the natural biodegradation of organic contaminants. When clean-up professionals use monitored natural attenuation to clean up contaminated sites, biodegradation is one of the major contributing processes

My online dictionary is also at a loss, recognizing precious few of those words.

Many reactions in organic chemistry are redox reactions due to changes in oxidation states but without distinct electron transfer. For example, during the combustion of wood with molecular oxygen, the oxidation state of carbon atoms in the wood increases and that of oxygen atoms decreases as carbon dioxide and water are formed. The oxygen atoms undergo reduction, formally gaining electrons, while the carbon atoms undergo oxidation, losing electrons. Thus oxygen is the oxidizing agent and carbon is the reducing agent in this reaction.

-- Redox (Wikileaks)

We'll need to check the electro-negativity charts so see if carbon dioxide can oxidize iron ... not sure I want to go down that rabbit hole ...

High temperature oxidation of iron atoms by CO2

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

it's not ..

Yes, it is. Go check.

"[Atmosphere of Mars] is primarily composed of carbon dioxide (95.32%), molecular nitrogen (2.6%) and argon (1.9%)"

Which of these three is an oxidizer? ...

None. Did you not go look it up? You will see.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So ... Fort Fun's article was written for Middle School students ... where the kids think soil and dirt taste alike, they must be the same thing ... well, they're not ...

Thus my question "Where did Martian soil come from?" ...

Dirt is dirt ... silicon dioxide ... Mars is covered in the crap ... every square bleeding inch ... clay, loam, sand ... soil include humus, organic material ... bacteria, rotting plant material, the neighbor's dogshit, previous homeowner's murder victims ...

Mars has no soil ... no rotting organic material in the dirt ... and Martian dirt itself has been untouched by any form of life ... something that cannot be said of anything the kids used in their little astrobiology experiment ... yes, we can sterilize soil, but that lasts about two second and we're contaminated again ... something we avoid on Mars ...

As I posted above ... the REAL challenge is NOT seeding life on Mars ... researches had quite the scare during the Viking Missions ... images of what were thought to be terrestrial bacteria growing on the lander leg ... I forget offhand what the blob turned out to be, but not life ...

So you just asked how they imitated martian soil...but you didn't look it up? I am sensing a pattern, here.

Here you go, shmoopie:

The Martian Garden

The Martian Garden is a supplier of research-grade Mars regolith simulant, designed by NASA and JPL scientists to simulate the soil on the surface of Mars.

www.themartiangarden.com

 

[ReinyDays]

None. Did you not go look it up? You will see.

My math gives 99.82% non-oxidizers ... in the Martian atmosphere ... I wouldn't consider this an oxidizing atmosphere ... compared to Earth's 22% oxygen ... see the difference? ...

So you just asked how they imitated martian soil...but you didn't look it up? I am sensing a pattern, here.

This is kept free of terrestrial microbes how? ... or do you just not know what soil is? ... on the chemical level ...

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

My math

Great! But you are missing something. Again ... I implore you ... look up why Mars atmosphere is oxidizing. It is from the photochemical reactions.

This is kept free of terrestrial microbes how?

Why are you asking me? Why are you not looking this up for yourself? Do you think NASA is trying to get one past you?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Just to clarify, there now exist two types of "oxidizers" or "oxidizing agents":

Electron acceptors participate in electron-transfer reactions. In this context, the oxidizing agent is called an electron acceptor and the reducing agent is called an electron donor.

Carbon dioxide sometimes fits this description. The other type being:

In more common usage, an oxidising agent transfers oxygen atoms to a substrate. In this context, the oxidising agent can be called an oxygenation reagent or oxygen-atom transfer (OAT) agent

Now why anyone would want to go and spell oxidize with an "s" sure beats me?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Just to clarify, there now exist two types of "oxidizers" or "oxidizing agents":

Electron acceptors participate in electron-transfer reactions. In this context, the oxidizing agent is called an electron acceptor and the reducing agent is called an electron donor.

Carbon dioxide sometimes fits this description. The other type being:

In more common usage, an oxidising agent transfers oxygen atoms to a substrate. In this context, the oxidising agent can be called an oxygenation reagent or oxygen-atom transfer (OAT) agent

Now why anyone would want to go and spell oxidize with an "s" sure beats me?

The prevailing idea is that the photochemical reactions spurn free OH which then reacts and creates ozone and oxygen molecules. These are short lived and find things to reduce.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Yeah, but notice how they spelled "oxidizing" with a "z" in the first type, then with an "s" in the second? That's just crazy!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

eah, but notice how they spelled "oxidizing" with a "z" in the first type, then with an "s" in the second? That's just crazy!

Well that's what happens, when you hop across the pond.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Scrabble score = 15

Scrabble score = 24

We win!