In-Depth Fortune Story on "Fast & Furious" Paints Totally Different Picture Than Issa

[Charles_Main]

AZ laws prevented them from ever going after any of the people. One guy was bought $300k in weapons and was on food stamps and the ATF couldnt stop his food stamps.

Now you support tougher gun laws after Terry Schiavo...ahem...Brian Terry dies? No?

You believe Complete BS. Are you actually arguing that the Federal Government could not do a thing, Because Arizona State law prevented them?


ROFLMAO

That's a good one.

 

[Saigon]

It's not polite to change this thread.. I'm sure there's a few people who want to rehash all of this nonsense again.. So go start a thread..

Fair enough, Flac - my apologies for going off topic.

 

[GuyPinestra]

Black Lawmakers To Walk Out On Eric Holder Contempt Vote

All they've got is a worn out race card to play, everything else is stacked against them...

 

[Stephanie]

Why should anyone take the Congressional Black Caucus serious anymore and why do we still have one in the first place?

They have worn out their usefulness...Now they are just a bunch of race baiting political hacks..

shame on them

 

[Liability]

Yea I am sure Fortune knows so much more than Issa does.


And if nothing bad is happening, why wouldn't the Hussein and Holder just give them the documents they want?

I knew this would be your response. Good. I'm glad that Conservatives still don't understand what real journalism looks like.

The point, dear stupids, is that indeed the Fortune investigation DOES know more than Issa, because unlike Issa, they actually did some real investigation, asked questions of the ATF unit in question, you know, silly things like that.

Ha ha ha. This story WILL be the next Clinton Blowjob. Enjoy the loss of credibility, fuckos.

You buy that shit. That doesn't make it real journalism.

It doesn't even make sense, much less qualify as "real journalism." For God's sake, you pathetic hack, the reporter's account is at odds with Congressional testimony BY ATF Agents. If the "Fortune" article were correct (which is damned unlikely) then the question is properly raised: WHY would the agents commit a felony like that? ATF agent calls gun-tracking program a 'disaster' - USATODAY.com

Are you really as stupid as you appear or are you just such a massive cock-sucking sycophant that you will put your name to something as obviously stupid as your OP?

 

[JoeB131]

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time.

So...now what, Right Wing nutjobs? Where's your indignation going to rest if it turns out this was, at the end of the day, a fuck up and nothing more?

"Republican senators are whipping up the country into a psychotic frenzy with these reports that are patently false," says Linda Wallace, a special agent with the Internal Revenue Service's criminal investigation unit who was assigned to the Fast and Furious team (and recently retired from the IRS). A self-described gun-rights supporter, Wallace has not been criticized by Issa's committee.

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

When all this gets out, and you know it will, I know the Right Wing will say it's all bullshit, but it's looking more and more like Issa's crusade against Holder and ultimately Obama is full of half-truths and lies. Or as we call it in the biz: BULLSHIT.

Good times, guys. Way to gin-up a scandal!

The more telling quote-

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

In short, this problem occurs exactly because the gun fetishists are getting their way on things.

Jared Loughner can walk into a gun store after trying to communicate with the light fixtures, slap down a couple C-notes and walk out with a gun and some extra large clips, because, hey, the second amendment says he can and don't you dare try to come up with laws to find out who is buying guns or stop people from getting them.

 

[The Rabbi]

Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands.

So if ATF was watching (and they did more than that) and didnt do anything then it was an operation. Or sheer stupidity. But they aren't stupid.
F&F will be Obama's Watergate.

 

[The Rabbi]

The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. /QUOTE]

That is utter and complete bullshit. The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibits all of that. I am federal firearms licensee and I can tell you this is so.
As usual people are talking out of their ass.

 

[JoeB131]

Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands.

So if ATF was watching (and they did more than that) and didnt do anything then it was an operation. Or sheer stupidity. But they aren't stupid.
F&F will be Obama's Watergate.

Kind of hard for them to stop it from happening when there are no specific laws, and the ATF is barred by law from actually developing a database for gun sales...

2000 guns find their way into Mexico every day. So the ATF is accused of loosing about an hours worth of traffic....

 

[The Rabbi]

Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands.

So if ATF was watching (and they did more than that) and didnt do anything then it was an operation. Or sheer stupidity. But they aren't stupid.
F&F will be Obama's Watergate.

Kind of hard for them to stop it from happening when there are no specific laws, and the ATF is barred by law from actually developing a database for gun sales...

2000 guns find their way into Mexico every day. So the ATF is accused of loosing about an hours worth of traffic....

That's utter and complete bullshit. They not only knew there were straw purchases going on, the told dealers to do it. Some dealers insisted on getting it in writing because they knew ATF would burn their ass over it.

 

[JoeB131]

The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws.

That is utter and complete bullshit. The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibits all of that. I am federal firearms licensee and I can tell you this is so.
As usual people are talking out of their ass.

I'll take the word of the person who wrote the article over yours.

The fact is, Jared Loughner can walk into a gun store despite being batshit crazy and buy a gun and do exactly what he did.

You guys fought against the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons ban and even the most mild gun control laws... I think it's kind of silly to complain, "Hey, the ATF failed to keep track of a few guns, and one of them killed a federal agent."

 

[The Rabbi]

The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws.

That is utter and complete bullshit. The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibits all of that. I am federal firearms licensee and I can tell you this is so.
As usual people are talking out of their ass.

I'll take the word of the person who wrote the article over yours.

The fact is, Jared Loughner can walk into a gun store despite being batshit crazy and buy a gun and do exactly what he did.

You guys fought against the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons ban and even the most mild gun control laws... I think it's kind of silly to complain, "Hey, the ATF failed to keep track of a few guns, and one of them killed a federal agent."

You have no fucking clue what you are blabbering about.
Loughner has nothing, nothng, to do with this case. But for the record, Loughner was not a prohibited person when he bought the gun. This has been pointed out to you many times but you are too fucking stupid to understand it.
And the Brady Bill is law, dumbshit. Do you thnk we have no gun control laws in this country?

 

[BDBoop]

First, the Fortune story is legit. And it blows the lid off of Issa's intent the whole time. Next, the story DIES tomorrow. Even when the vote is in, the DOJ won't prosecute, and the Senate will kill the resolution. This story is a dead duck.

You're probably right about the DOJ not being willing to prosecute which is why you might notice that along with the criminal complaint of contempt...which would have to be prosecuted by the DOJ...that a civil complaint of contempt has also been issued...something that would NOT be prosecuted by the DOJ. This story is far from being "dead". What's dead are Brian Terry and hundreds of Mexican nationals because Eric Holder is incompetent or worse. That's a "story" that won't go away.

New drinking game: take a shot every time a Conservative invokes Brian Terry to exploit this story.

We don't have that much alcohol in the house, but my housemates said they're willing to give it a shot (no pun intended).

 

[Liability]

* * * *

New drinking game: take a shot every time a Conservative invokes Brian Terry to exploit this story.

Or, we could take a shot every time some liberal Democratic apologist for the failed Administration, the absurd buffoon Attorney General and their circus of assclowns tries to deflect attention AWAY from the COST of their Fast and Furious imbecility.

 

[BDBoop]

Go peddle your anti-gun agenda somewhere else. When they took away gun rights in England -- more people died from baseball bats. So they had to outlaw those. Now -- you can be arrested in England for putting bars on your tool shed that a criminal might hurt themselves on whilst breaking in to steal your stuff. "Developed Nation"???

No -- they are INSANE..

UK homicide rate: 1.23 (per 100,000)

US homicide rate: 4.80

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So which country has been more successful in preserving life?

Well at least they aren't shooting any fetuses, ye bastard!!!!!

/righteous indignation

 

[JoeB131]

You have no fucking clue what you are blabbering about.
Loughner has nothing, nothng, to do with this case. But for the record, Loughner was not a prohibited person when he bought the gun. This has been pointed out to you many times but you are too fucking stupid to understand it.
And the Brady Bill is law, dumbshit. Do you thnk we have no gun control laws in this country?

And that's the point.

Loughner wasn't prohibited. If the gun laws can't keep him from buying a gun, then the gun laws are too weak. Period.

And if 2000 guns a day are finding their way into Mexico, then the gun laws are too weak.

And it's a bit silly to go ahead and complain that the ATF couldn't bail out the ocean with a teaspoon.

But you think you can use Agent Terry's coffin as a soap box while getting us all to ignore that the gun laws in this country are largely toothless because the NRA and the gun industry has fought to make them so.

 

[GuyPinestra]

AZ laws prevented them from ever going after any of the people. One guy was bought $300k in weapons and was on food stamps and the ATF couldnt stop his food stamps.

Now you support tougher gun laws after Terry Schiavo...ahem...Brian Terry dies? No?

What kind of fucking idiot hack are you, anyway? There is NO REFERENCE WHATSOEVER to Arizona gun laws, not even in the Fortune fluff piece. It was FEDERAL prosecutors who refused to do their jobs, not STATE ones. Now tell me, under what department do FEDERAL prosecutors operate? WHO is in charge of that department?

Who is at fault here?

 

[BDBoop]

AZ laws prevented them from ever going after any of the people. One guy was bought $300k in weapons and was on food stamps and the ATF couldnt stop his food stamps.

Now you support tougher gun laws after Terry Schiavo...ahem...Brian Terry dies? No?

What kind of fucking idiot hack are you, anyway? There is NO REFERENCE WHATSOEVER to Arizona gun laws, not even in the Fortune fluff piece. It was FEDERAL prosecutors who refused to do their jobs, not STATE ones. Now tell me, under what department do FEDERAL prosecutors operate? WHO is in charge of that department?

Who is at fault here?

Seriously? Which Fortune article were you reading, home skillet?

5th paragraph.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

 

[tinydancer]

Black Lawmakers To Walk Out On Eric Holder Contempt Vote

What else is new? Should this surprise you? And why should anyone care?

They're the "you farted, you're racist" crowd.

 

[BDBoop]

AZ laws prevented them from ever going after any of the people. One guy was bought $300k in weapons and was on food stamps and the ATF couldnt stop his food stamps.

Now you support tougher gun laws after Terry Schiavo...ahem...Brian Terry dies? No?

What kind of fucking idiot hack are you, anyway? There is NO REFERENCE WHATSOEVER to Arizona gun laws, not even in the Fortune fluff piece. It was FEDERAL prosecutors who refused to do their jobs, not STATE ones. Now tell me, under what department do FEDERAL prosecutors operate? WHO is in charge of that department?

Who is at fault here?

Prosecutors: Transferring guns is legal in Arizona

This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley's judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. "[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime." (Arizona federal prosecutors referred requests for comment to the Justice Department, which declined to make officials available. Hurley noted in an e-mail, "I am not able to comment on what I understand to be an ongoing
investigation/prosecution. I am precluded by federal regulation, DOJ policy, the rules of professional conduct, and court order from talking with you about this matter." Cunningham's attorney also declined to comment.)

It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn't necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.

None of the ATF agents doubted that the Fast and Furious guns were being purchased to commit crimes in Mexico. But that was nearly impossible to prove to prosecutors' satisfaction. And agents could not seize guns or arrest suspects after being directed not to do so by a prosecutor. (Agents can be sued if they seize a weapon against prosecutors' advice. In this case, the agents had a particularly strong obligation to follow the prosecutors' direction given that Fast and Furious had received a special designation under the Justice Department's Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force. That designation meant more resources for the case, but it also provided that prosecutors take the lead role.)

Who was at fault?

Federal Prosecutors.

Not ATF.