In-Depth Fortune Story on "Fast & Furious" Paints Totally Different Picture Than Issa

[bigrebnc1775]

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time.

So...now what, Right Wing nutjobs? Where's your indignation going to rest if it turns out this was, at the end of the day, a fuck up and nothing more?

"Republican senators are whipping up the country into a psychotic frenzy with these reports that are patently false," says Linda Wallace, a special agent with the Internal Revenue Service's criminal investigation unit who was assigned to the Fast and Furious team (and recently retired from the IRS). A self-described gun-rights supporter, Wallace has not been criticized by Issa's committee.

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

When all this gets out, and you know it will, I know the Right Wing will say it's all bullshit, but it's looking more and more like Issa's crusade against Holder and ultimately Obama is full of half-truths and lies. Or as we call it in the biz: BULLSHIT.

Good times, guys. Way to gin-up a scandal!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^​

 

[ConservaDerrps]

ITT: Conservatives prove their allergy to truth.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

ITT: Conservatives prove their allergy to truth.

Saying their is truth to the OP and their being truth too the OP is two different subjects.
It's easier for you too say it than it being true.

 

[Oldstyle]

What gun laws would have prevented a person who was not prohibited from buying a gun? Germany has the strictest gun laws around, and they still have mass shooting incidents.

The ATF engaged in an illegal operation that violated Federal law and resulted in the death of a law enforcement agent. Do you think that's OK?

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gun death rate, US- 10.27
gun death rate, Germany- 1.57

Um, yeah, stricter gun laws do work... Wow.

The ATF engaged in an investigation, nothing more, nothing less. No one has yet to prove they did anything illegal.

You're an idiot, Joe. The ATF allowed guns to walk. They resurrected a program that was shown to be unworkable even with the full cooperation of the Mexican authorities and with tracking devices on weapons only THIS time they did neither of those things. To say that the reason Fast & Furious failed was because the gun laws in AZ weren't strict enough is the ultimate cop out. This is the Justice Department!!! Aren't they SUPPOSED to understand laws and their limitations? Yet they run this huge program where they allow thousands of weapons to walk and THEN discover that they don't have the legal right to arrest? That's laughable.

 

[Oldstyle]

You have no fucking clue what you are blabbering about.
Loughner has nothing, nothng, to do with this case. But for the record, Loughner was not a prohibited person when he bought the gun. This has been pointed out to you many times but you are too fucking stupid to understand it.
And the Brady Bill is law, dumbshit. Do you thnk we have no gun control laws in this country?

And that's the point.

Loughner wasn't prohibited. If the gun laws can't keep him from buying a gun, then the gun laws are too weak. Period.

And if 2000 guns a day are finding their way into Mexico, then the gun laws are too weak.

And it's a bit silly to go ahead and complain that the ATF couldn't bail out the ocean with a teaspoon.

But you think you can use Agent Terry's coffin as a soap box while getting us all to ignore that the gun laws in this country are largely toothless because the NRA and the gun industry has fought to make them so.

What gun laws would have prevented a person who was not prohibited from buying a gun? Germany has the strictest gun laws around, and they still have mass shooting incidents.

The ATF engaged in an illegal operation that violated Federal law and resulted in the death of a law enforcement agent. Do you think that's OK?

Where it becomes illegal is when the buyers transport said guns across the border of the US and Mexico. Now you would THINK that the ATF would want to arrest anyone that was doing that but the Holder Justice Department didn't. So explain what their "plan" was? I'd really like to have someone from the left explain the theory behind what the ATF was doing.

 

[Oldstyle]

Yeah, you can here the crickets in here when I ask THAT question...

 

[ConservaDerrps]

And that's the point.

Loughner wasn't prohibited. If the gun laws can't keep him from buying a gun, then the gun laws are too weak. Period.

And if 2000 guns a day are finding their way into Mexico, then the gun laws are too weak.

And it's a bit silly to go ahead and complain that the ATF couldn't bail out the ocean with a teaspoon.

But you think you can use Agent Terry's coffin as a soap box while getting us all to ignore that the gun laws in this country are largely toothless because the NRA and the gun industry has fought to make them so.

What gun laws would have prevented a person who was not prohibited from buying a gun? Germany has the strictest gun laws around, and they still have mass shooting incidents.

The ATF engaged in an illegal operation that violated Federal law and resulted in the death of a law enforcement agent. Do you think that's OK?

Where it becomes illegal is when the buyers transport said guns across the border of the US and Mexico. Now you would THINK that the ATF would want to arrest anyone that was doing that but the Holder Justice Department didn't. So explain what their "plan" was? I'd really like to have someone from the left explain the theory behind what the ATF was doing.

They were trying to do what the Bush administration tried, and what they found, if you read the article I started the thread with, was that the super-lax gun laws in AZ allowed the guns to walk, essentially. So the irony in all of this is that the NRA and the right wing using Agent Terry's tombstone as a talking point about gun control conspiracy theories is even more bullshit. Why? Because shitty gun laws resulted in not being able to prosecute.

So yeah, there's that.

 

[Truthmatters]

when this one is shook all the way out its going to kill Issas career

 

[Liability]

when this one is shook all the way out its going to kill Issas career

There is not a single reason on the face of planet Earth to believe that bullshit.

When the shaking ends, that rattling in your head (a brain the size of a grain of sand) may fall out.

But the F&F story is more likely to be the undoing of Attorney General Holder.

You know, it really is bad form to lie to Congress and to refuse to comply with lawful subpoenas.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Shaman, that's another strawman argument. Nobody has said the government SUPPLIED the weapons, they simply DEMANDED that the gun dealers SELL the weapons to people they KNEW were ILLEGALLY purchasing them.

They didnt know they were being bought illegally because the laws in AZ are so relaxed that you cannot stop people from buying large numbers of weapons even if they end up at a crime scene.

AZ says that you have to prove the guns are going to be used in a crime. Which is impossible.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Issa lies.

Chris lies.

 

[The Rabbi]

And that's the point.

Loughner wasn't prohibited. If the gun laws can't keep him from buying a gun, then the gun laws are too weak. Period.

And if 2000 guns a day are finding their way into Mexico, then the gun laws are too weak.

And it's a bit silly to go ahead and complain that the ATF couldn't bail out the ocean with a teaspoon.

But you think you can use Agent Terry's coffin as a soap box while getting us all to ignore that the gun laws in this country are largely toothless because the NRA and the gun industry has fought to make them so.

What gun laws would have prevented a person who was not prohibited from buying a gun? Germany has the strictest gun laws around, and they still have mass shooting incidents.

The ATF engaged in an illegal operation that violated Federal law and resulted in the death of a law enforcement agent. Do you think that's OK?

Where it becomes illegal is when the buyers transport said guns across the border of the US and Mexico. Now you would THINK that the ATF would want to arrest anyone that was doing that but the Holder Justice Department didn't. So explain what their "plan" was? I'd really like to have someone from the left explain the theory behind what the ATF was doing.

No. Actually the moment the buyer checked the yes box on the 4473 that asks "are you the actual buyer of the gun" and signed the form he had committed a felony. And since the approval was done with permission of ATF that makes them an accomplice to that felony.

 

[The Rabbi]

Shaman, that's another strawman argument. Nobody has said the government SUPPLIED the weapons, they simply DEMANDED that the gun dealers SELL the weapons to people they KNEW were ILLEGALLY purchasing them.

They didnt know they were being bought illegally because the laws in AZ are so relaxed that you cannot stop people from buying large numbers of weapons even if they end up at a crime scene.

AZ says that you have to prove the guns are going to be used in a crime. Which is impossible.

Utter bullshit.
AZ laws are no different than most states. The issue is that ATF knew they had a straw buyer and instructed dealers to transfer the guns anyway. That is a crime.

 

[Oldstyle]

Shaman, that's another strawman argument. Nobody has said the government SUPPLIED the weapons, they simply DEMANDED that the gun dealers SELL the weapons to people they KNEW were ILLEGALLY purchasing them.

They didnt know they were being bought illegally because the laws in AZ are so relaxed that you cannot stop people from buying large numbers of weapons even if they end up at a crime scene.

AZ says that you have to prove the guns are going to be used in a crime. Which is impossible.

So explain to me what the goal of Fast & Furious really was, Closed? If you're saying that the laws of AZ were so "relaxed" that that you can't stop people from buying and selling weapons...then why did the ATF ENCOURAGE gun shops to sell to straw buyers?

 

[BlindBoo]

Not quite sure how you figure it that way, Conserva...you've got Eric Holder about to be found in contempt of Congress and estimates are that some 20 Democrats will join that vote. The fact is, the whole premise behind Fast & Furious was SO stupid that it's hard to come up with a "reason" for it that makes sense. Heads should have rolled over this program but Eric Holder made the call to stonewall it. That shouldn't surprise anyone. When he was asked about his setting up the pardon of Marc Rich he pleaded ignorance of the facts, saying that if he's only known the specifics...why he wouldn't have asked for a pardon. Holder does the same thing with Fast & Furious. If only he'd known about the specifics of the program he assures us he would have stopped it. So which is it? Is Eric Holder just clueless about MOST of what he's in charge of...or has he got this whole "Gee, I didn't know!" routine down to a science? Either way...why is this guy our Attorney General?

First, the Fortune story is legit. And it blows the lid off of Issa's intent the whole time. Next, the story DIES tomorrow. Even when the vote is in, the DOJ won't prosecute, and the Senate will kill the resolution. This story is a dead duck.

You're probably right about the DOJ not being willing to prosecute which is why you might notice that along with the criminal complaint of contempt...which would have to be prosecuted by the DOJ...that a civil complaint of contempt has also been issued...something that would NOT be prosecuted by the DOJ. This story is far from being "dead". What's dead are Brian Terry and hundreds of Mexican nationals because Eric Holder is incompetent or worse. That's a "story" that won't go away.

In reality the real reason for all the deaths is the US war on Drugs. That's the story no one will tell and it will not go away until the war is stopped, or we have a total police state.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

First, the Fortune story is legit. And it blows the lid off of Issa's intent the whole time. Next, the story DIES tomorrow. Even when the vote is in, the DOJ won't prosecute, and the Senate will kill the resolution. This story is a dead duck.

You're probably right about the DOJ not being willing to prosecute which is why you might notice that along with the criminal complaint of contempt...which would have to be prosecuted by the DOJ...that a civil complaint of contempt has also been issued...something that would NOT be prosecuted by the DOJ. This story is far from being "dead". What's dead are Brian Terry and hundreds of Mexican nationals because Eric Holder is incompetent or worse. That's a "story" that won't go away.

In reality the real reason for all the deaths is the US war on Drugs. That's the story no one will tell and it will not go away until the war is stopped, or we have a total police state.

Precisely.

 

[flacaltenn]

You're probably right about the DOJ not being willing to prosecute which is why you might notice that along with the criminal complaint of contempt...which would have to be prosecuted by the DOJ...that a civil complaint of contempt has also been issued...something that would NOT be prosecuted by the DOJ. This story is far from being "dead". What's dead are Brian Terry and hundreds of Mexican nationals because Eric Holder is incompetent or worse. That's a "story" that won't go away.

In reality the real reason for all the deaths is the US war on Drugs. That's the story no one will tell and it will not go away until the war is stopped, or we have a total police state.

Precisely.

You turd.. Now I've got to agree with you... Just ruined my whole day!!

 

[ConservaDerrps]

In reality the real reason for all the deaths is the US war on Drugs. That's the story no one will tell and it will not go away until the war is stopped, or we have a total police state.

Precisely.

You turd.. Now I've got to agree with you... Just ruined my whole day!!

Oh no! You mean we found common ground on an issue? Whatever will we do?

 

[flacaltenn]

Precisely.

You turd.. Now I've got to agree with you... Just ruined my whole day!!

Oh no! You mean we found common ground on an issue? Whatever will we do?

As long as looks nothing like your avi --- it's cool...

 

[ConservaDerrps]

You turd.. Now I've got to agree with you... Just ruined my whole day!!

Oh no! You mean we found common ground on an issue? Whatever will we do?

As long as looks nothing like your avi --- it's cool...

You mean mutual reluctant oral?