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They OBVIOUSLY can't make an arrest when they aren't tracking the weapons. They OBVIOUSLY can't make an arrest when they tell their agents NOT TO ARREST ANYONE! This was NEVER a program that was designed to arrest people. That's the entire issue. This trying to blame the failure of the program on AZ's gun laws is laughable.
Actually the ONLY purpose of the Fortune article is to confirm the NRA's fear that the LEFT was using this program as an excuse to make the dealers into the bad guys.. Kinda ironic isn't it?
They dont realize they are proving our point... ideology has blinded them.
Only it wasn't the same program b/c the ATF wasn't supplying the guns.
They also can't make an arrest if no crime has been committed.
They OBVIOUSLY can't make an arrest when they aren't tracking the weapons. They OBVIOUSLY can't make an arrest when they tell their agents NOT TO ARREST ANYONE! This was NEVER a program that was designed to arrest people. That's the entire issue. This trying to blame the failure of the program on AZ's gun laws is laughable.
Actually the ONLY purpose of the Fortune article is to confirm the NRA's fear that the LEFT was using this program as an excuse to make the dealers into the bad guys.. Kinda ironic isn't it?
They OBVIOUSLY can't make an arrest when they aren't tracking the weapons. They OBVIOUSLY can't make an arrest when they tell their agents NOT TO ARREST ANYONE! This was NEVER a program that was designed to arrest people. That's the entire issue. This trying to blame the failure of the program on AZ's gun laws is laughable.
Actually the ONLY purpose of the Fortune article is to confirm the NRA's fear that the LEFT was using this program as an excuse to make the dealers into the bad guys.. Kinda ironic isn't it?
Look, I'm not big on "conspiracy" theories. I have no idea if somebody in the Holder DOJ or even the Obama Administration came up with Fast & Furious as a back door way to push through tougher gun control laws. What I DO know is that the entire program makes no sense at all. You resurrect a program that was shown to be ineffective when the Bush DOJ tried it because they found they couldn't trace the weapons...even with the full cooperation of the Mexican Government and tracking devices on the guns that were walked? Only with THIS program...you don't include the Mexicans and you don't put tracking devices on the guns that are sold? That tells me that you REALLY don't have any intention of arresting anyone for this...in which case THEN WHAT THE HECK WAS THE POINT!!!
They OBVIOUSLY can't make an arrest when they aren't tracking the weapons. They OBVIOUSLY can't make an arrest when they tell their agents NOT TO ARREST ANYONE! This was NEVER a program that was designed to arrest people. That's the entire issue. This trying to blame the failure of the program on AZ's gun laws is laughable.
Actually the ONLY purpose of the Fortune article is to confirm the NRA's fear that the LEFT was using this program as an excuse to make the dealers into the bad guys.. Kinda ironic isn't it?
Look, I'm not big on "conspiracy" theories. I have no idea if somebody in the Holder DOJ or even the Obama Administration came up with Fast & Furious as a back door way to push through tougher gun control laws. What I DO know is that the entire program makes no sense at all. You resurrect a program that was shown to be ineffective when the Bush DOJ tried it because they found they couldn't trace the weapons...even with the full cooperation of the Mexican Government and tracking devices on the guns that were walked? Only with THIS program...you don't include the Mexicans and you don't put tracking devices on the guns that are sold? That tells me that you REALLY don't have any intention of arresting anyone for this...in which case THEN WHAT THE HECK WAS THE POINT!!!
What's hysterical is that the Fortune article is full of shit. But it's shit that trolls like CD love to shovel down their throats.
Sallow has a thread going that claims the ATF never did anything wrong ever and everything is rainbows and lollipops with the DOJ. (and linked to an interview with Al Sharpton)
Next up, franco will get a thread going on how it was Dick Cheney's gun that was found at the scene of Brian Terry's murder.
Delusional. They're desperate and delusional.
What's full of shit about it, exactly? See, what you just did tinybraincells, is you covered the conversation in a blanket of meaninglessness. You generalized. You need to come with specific examples, honey chile, are I'm going to have to toss the full-on "You are a fucking idiot" card on you.
I'll give you a chance to study up.
I don't have to come up with jack shit. It's your OP. Defend it. What specifics have you offered?
Because the Eban fairy tale is written like a piece that she's going to submit for a HBO made for cable movie with Voth as the ATF knight in shining armor.
Have you actually read it?
It's not an investigative piece at all. I must say though Eban has a flair for drama.
As Voth waited for the police, he checked his e-mail and found an anonymous threat, sent minutes earlier: "You God-damned stupid 'Yes-Man' who does not have either the morals, or the intelligence, to realize that allowing this 'Fast and Furious' operation would result in unnecessary, unjustified deaths: MAY YOU EAT SHIT AND DIE."
Later his wife found a strange car outside their house and an angry post on the Internet listing their home address. Voth confidentially shared his concern about that post in a meeting with two senior ATF officials, only to find an account of the meeting on the Sipsey Street blog within 24 hours.
Oh and then this piece of amazing evidence that Eban produces in her "fairy tale investigative report". This is beyond laughable.
For Voth, steeped in military loyalty, Melson's betrayal was the blow he couldn't fathom. Voth began losing weight, losing sleep.
As he puts it, "You barely remember your own name, your mind is going 100 miles an hour." He no longer knew what to do or who could be trusted. "There would be no way," he says, "to foreshadow this."
Oh the drama!!! Voth is a victim!!
Sweet lord what a joke.
to make the dealers into the bad guys.. Kinda ironic isn't it?
to make the dealers into the bad guys.. Kinda ironic isn't it?
Not really - the dealers ARE the bad guys.
Unless you think arming he Mexican drug gangs is a good thing.
Actually the ONLY purpose of the Fortune article is to confirm the NRA's fear that the LEFT was using this program as an excuse to make the dealers into the bad guys.. Kinda ironic isn't it?
Look, I'm not big on "conspiracy" theories. I have no idea if somebody in the Holder DOJ or even the Obama Administration came up with Fast & Furious as a back door way to push through tougher gun control laws. What I DO know is that the entire program makes no sense at all. You resurrect a program that was shown to be ineffective when the Bush DOJ tried it because they found they couldn't trace the weapons...even with the full cooperation of the Mexican Government and tracking devices on the guns that were walked? Only with THIS program...you don't include the Mexicans and you don't put tracking devices on the guns that are sold? That tells me that you REALLY don't have any intention of arresting anyone for this...in which case THEN WHAT THE HECK WAS THE POINT!!!
You already answered your own question. (see highlight above^)
Fast and Furious: Gun store owner opens up - Los Angeles Times
For 15 months, Howard did as he was told. To customers with phony IDs or wads of cash he normally would have turned away, he sold pistols, rifles and semiautomatics. He was assured by the ATF that they would follow the guns, and that the surveillance would lead the agents to the violent Mexican drug cartels on the Southwest border.
When Howard heard nothing about any arrests, he questioned the agents. Keep selling, they told him. So hundreds of thousands of dollars more in weapons, including .50-caliber sniper rifles, walked out of the front door of his store in a Glendale, Ariz., strip mall.
He was making a lot of money. But he also feared somebody was going to get hurt.
"Every passing week, I worried about something like that," he said. "I felt horrible and sick."
Flac -
Obviously the entire operation was poorly conceived, poorly run, and it's a mystery as to how it ever got off the ground. It may well be that the target of the operation was wrong from the outset.
I doubt anyone is going to argue otherwise.
But it shouldn't be used to distract Americans from the crucial issues -
- guns bought in the US are being used by Mexican drug gangs
- the US has a gun homicide rate roughly 10 times that of any other developed nation
- death by gun shot wound is the leading cause of death amongst some US demographics
- current US gun laws are not effective in the fight against crime
I support the right of ordinary Americans to own guns for sport and protection, but the US seems to have forgotten that non-gun owning Americans also have civil rights that need to be maintained - and currently are simply ignored.
Go peddle your anti-gun agenda somewhere else. When they took away gun rights in England -- more people died from baseball bats. So they had to outlaw those. Now -- you can be arrested in England for putting bars on your tool shed that a criminal might hurt themselves on whilst breaking in to steal your stuff. "Developed Nation"???
No -- they are INSANE..
Flac -
Obviously the entire operation was poorly conceived, poorly run, and it's a mystery as to how it ever got off the ground. It may well be that the target of the operation was wrong from the outset.
I doubt anyone is going to argue otherwise.
But it shouldn't be used to distract Americans from the crucial issues -
- guns bought in the US are being used by Mexican drug gangs
- the US has a gun homicide rate roughly 10 times that of any other developed nation
- death by gun shot wound is the leading cause of death amongst some US demographics
- current US gun laws are not effective in the fight against crime
I support the right of ordinary Americans to own guns for sport and protection, but the US seems to have forgotten that non-gun owning Americans also have civil rights that need to be maintained - and currently are simply ignored.
Go peddle your anti-gun agenda somewhere else. When they took away gun rights in England -- more people died from baseball bats. So they had to outlaw those. Now -- you can be arrested in England for putting bars on your tool shed that a criminal might hurt themselves on whilst breaking in to steal your stuff. "Developed Nation"???
No -- they are INSANE..
Go peddle your anti-gun agenda somewhere else. When they took away gun rights in England -- more people died from baseball bats. So they had to outlaw those. Now -- you can be arrested in England for putting bars on your tool shed that a criminal might hurt themselves on whilst breaking in to steal your stuff. "Developed Nation"???
No -- they are INSANE..
UK homicide rate: 1.23 (per 100,000)
US homicide rate: 4.80
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So which country has been more successful in preserving life?
So which country has been more successful in preserving life?
CaféAuLait;5527601 said:They also banned knives with points and last I heard they were banning drinking glasses in restaurants because of the risk of being hurt with the glass in a fight. I had not heard about the ban on bars on the toolsheds! WOW!
