In these discussions, does first hand knowledge matter?

[HistoryBefore67]

It has been suggested to me in another thread that first hand knowledge or experience is not relevant to these discussions. The suggestion is that these are purely academic debates, and everyone stands on the same footing when it comes to expressing their opinions.

I disagree.

Some of us have evaluated the situation with our own eyes and ears. We have posters who live in the region, or have travelled, worked or studied there. In my opinion, those who have been to the area and actually talked to people - as opposed to only seeing and hearing what the media serves to the public - have gained insight that cannot be overlooked.

That does not mean that someone who has first-hand knowledge is necessarily devoid of bias, but I do believe that it can be more difficult to maintain those biases when you've actually met and spoken with people on both sides.

Some may think I am bringing this up to assign superiority to the opinions of certain people, including myself, over others. That's not the case at all. Rather, I would suggest that when someone tells you that they've been to Israel or the "Palestinian" territories, and has observed with their own eyes and ears what is really going on there, you should listen to what they have to say, and perhaps challenge your own preconceived notions.

Otherwise, you're relying solely on what the internet can provide, which I think we all can agree is a dubious proposition.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

It has been suggested to me in another thread that first hand knowledge or experience is not relevant to these discussions. The suggestion is that these are purely academic debates, and everyone stands on the same footing when it comes to expressing their opinions.

I disagree.

Some of us have evaluated the situation with our own eyes and ears. We have posters who live in the region, or have travelled, worked or studied there. In my opinion, those who have been to the area and actually talked to people - as opposed to only seeing and hearing what the media serves to the public - have gained insight that cannot be overlooked.

That does not mean that someone who has first-hand knowledge is necessarily devoid of bias, but I do believe that it can be more difficult to maintain those biases when you've actually met and spoken with people on both sides.

Some may think I am bringing this up to assign superiority to the opinions of certain people, including myself, over others. That's not the case at all. Rather, I would suggest that when someone tells you that they've been to Israel or the "Palestinian" territories, and has observed with their own eyes and ears what is really going on there, you should listen to what they have to say, and perhaps challenge your own preconceived notions.

Otherwise, you're relying solely on what the internet can provide, which I think we all can agree is a dubious proposition.

I agree with you completely. Also, it would stand to reason that certain posters here, who have dedicated their whole lives to espousing either the Palestinian or Israeli cause, would want to visit the countries that have monopolized their lives. Also, these armchair Palestinians or Israelis who will fight to the last Palestinian or Israeli from the comfort of their own homes, should want to share their discomforts (if they indeed have any), and stand with their "brethren".

 

[toastman]

It really frustrates me when pro - Palestinians talk as if they've been to Israel, when in reality all they know about Israel is what they read on the internet or from the videos they watch on youtube. The fact of the matter is, the information they get from those sources are only 1/100 of what really happens in Israel. I'm not saying that you had to have visited Israel in order to give your opinion, but posting bullshit as if you've lived there before is just plain wrong
Ah well, they are the ones fooling themselves. Haters gonna hate

 

[Hyrcanus]

I agree with you completely. Also, it would stand to reason that certain posters here, who have dedicated their whole lives to espousing either the Palestinian or Israeli cause, would want to visit the countries that have monopolized their lives. Also, these armchair Palestinians or Israelis who will fight to the last Palestinian or Israeli from the comfort of their own homes, should want to share their discomforts (if they indeed have any), and stand with their "brethren".

I have never been to Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, or Russia.

Nevertheless, I feel its more than appropriate to learn about these countries and condemn their actions when they are deserving of condemnation.

 

[Hyrcanus]

It really frustrates me when pro - Palestinians talk as if they've been to Israel, when in reality all they know about Israel is what they read on the internet or from the videos they watch on youtube...

So one had no business attacking Saddam's regime unless they have been to Iraq?

You have no business attacking North Korea until you pay a visit?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I agree with you completely. Also, it would stand to reason that certain posters here, who have dedicated their whole lives to espousing either the Palestinian or Israeli cause, would want to visit the countries that have monopolized their lives. Also, these armchair Palestinians or Israelis who will fight to the last Palestinian or Israeli from the comfort of their own homes, should want to share their discomforts (if they indeed have any), and stand with their "brethren".

I have never been to Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, or Russia.

Nevertheless, I feel its more than appropriate to learn about these countries and condemn their actions when they are deserving of condemnation.

Comparing Israel with those countries proves just how far up your ass your head is. Just noting the obvious bias.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Comparing Israel with those countries proves just how far up your ass your head is. Just noting the obvious bias.

I wasn't comparing Israel to those countries, genius.

Folks are arguing that one has no business commenting on Israel or criticising her actions unless you have at least been there.

I am asking them if its fair to say the same thing about criticising other nations, such as Iran, North Korea, Iraq, without also having been there.

Clearly, North Korea and Iraq are much worse cases than Israel.

 

[toastman]

It really frustrates me when pro - Palestinians talk as if they've been to Israel, when in reality all they know about Israel is what they read on the internet or from the videos they watch on youtube...

So one had no business attacking Saddam's regime unless they have been to Iraq?

You have no business attacking North Korea until you pay a visit?

Completely irrelevant. Not even close to what I was saying
No offense dude, but I've read a lot of your posts and you really have no clue what you're talking about most of the time. That, and you have trouble keeping up with the conversation taking place in certain threads.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Completely irrelevant. Not even close to what I was saying...

you seem to believe that one should only critcise a nation if you have been there.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Folks are arguing that one has no business commenting on Israel or criticising her actions unless you have at least been there.

Who said that? (It certainly wasn't me... maybe you should go back and re-read the OP)

I am asking them if its fair to say the same thing about criticising other nations, such as Iran, North Korea, Iraq, without also having been there.

Clearly, North Korea and Iraq are much worse cases than Israel.

It would be very difficult for any of us to travel to those countries even if we wished to do so. That said, if we were debating Iraq (for example), and someone who served over there chimed in, I'd listen to what he or she had to say.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Completely irrelevant. Not even close to what I was saying...

you seem to believe that one should only critcise a nation if you have been there.

So this is your tactic? Misquote people and then argue with something they never said?

 

[toastman]

Completely irrelevant. Not even close to what I was saying...

you seem to believe that one should only critcise a nation if you have been there.

Read my post again ! Jeez. Try to keep up will you

 

[Lipush]

I agree with you completely. Also, it would stand to reason that certain posters here, who have dedicated their whole lives to espousing either the Palestinian or Israeli cause, would want to visit the countries that have monopolized their lives. Also, these armchair Palestinians or Israelis who will fight to the last Palestinian or Israeli from the comfort of their own homes, should want to share their discomforts (if they indeed have any), and stand with their "brethren".

I have never been to Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, or Russia.

Nevertheless, I feel its more than appropriate to learn about these countries and condemn their actions when they are deserving of condemnation.

Yeah, because Israel is EXACTLY like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan

 

[Hyrcanus]

Yeah, because Israel is EXACTLY like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan

This is what we call a "strawman" comment.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Yeah, because Israel is EXACTLY like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan

This is what we call a "strawman" comment.

You should know. Everything you've posted on this thread has been a strawman argument. Not one person said that there are prerequisites to commenting on these subjects, and yet you keep accusing people of making that argument.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Yeah, because Israel is EXACTLY like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan

This is what we call a "strawman" comment.

What do we call your misquoting and being total wrong about what was said that you commented on? Or perhaps you can QUOTE the exact phrase or sentence where in anyone said you may not comment on some Country unless you have been there?

 

[Coyote]

First hand knowledge is no more accurate than knowledge gained from reputable sources.

First hand knowledge is far more likely to reflect personal bias, particularly when that person has a vested interest in a particular side. I think that is pretty evident.

Not everyone depends solely on the internet for their information.

Edited to add:

There is a valid point to first hand knowledge - I take what Lipush has to say more seriously than most pro-Israelis because she it is her culture and shehas clued me in on a lot of things I didn't realize. I found the same with BiK from the Palestinian side. On the other hand - neither has outright dismissed the viewpoints of those opponents who had not been there or totally demonized the opposing side. Maybe that is the difference.

 

[Coyote]

It really frustrates me when pro - Palestinians talk as if they've been to Israel, when in reality all they know about Israel is what they read on the internet or from the videos they watch on youtube. The fact of the matter is, the information they get from those sources are only 1/100 of what really happens in Israel. I'm not saying that you had to have visited Israel in order to give your opinion, but posting bullshit as if you've lived there before is just plain wrong
Ah well, they are the ones fooling themselves. Haters gonna hate

Do you get as frustrated when Pro-Israeli's talk as if they've been to Israel? Do you get as frustrated when Pro-Israeli's talk about Palestinians as if they've met them or been there?

Do you think their posts are accurate or bullshit?

Yup. Haters are going to hate. On both sides.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Do you get as frustrated when Pro-Israeli's talk as if they've been to Israel?

How much time have I spent in Israel? Oh... you don't know? Then maybe you should stop making assumptions.

Seems to me that the people who are downplaying first hand knowledge probably have none.

 

[P F Tinmore]

First hand knowledge is no more accurate than knowledge gained from reputable sources.

First hand knowledge is far more likely to reflect personal bias, particularly when that person has a vested interest in a particular side. I think that is pretty evident.

Not everyone depends solely on the internet for their information.

Edited to add:

There is a valid point to first hand knowledge - I take what Lipush has to say more seriously than most pro-Israelis because she it is her culture and shehas clued me in on a lot of things I didn't realize. I found the same with BiK from the Palestinian side. On the other hand - neither has outright dismissed the viewpoints of those opponents who had not been there or totally demonized the opposing side. Maybe that is the difference.

Good points. I really value posts by Lipush and BIK. First hand experience is important. On the downside, though, someone in country can by more subject to indoctrination than an outside observer.

I found this to be an interesting series. I haven't seen anything similar for Israel.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/134774-sleepless-in-gaza-and-jerusalem.html