Interesting argument against the Ground Zero Mosque

[Shogun]

That is EXACTLY what it is. Read a history book. Islamic tradition build a mosque on a site of victory. Read rauf's book he says the US deserved 9/11.

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

We are not judging these Muslims by the actions of others. We are judging them by their OWN actions. Namely

1. The main Imam behind the mosque is on record as blaming, at least partly, the US for the 9/11 attacks.

2. Rauf penned a book in which he expressed his desire to impose Sharia law in the US

3. And most importantly, IF they truly wished to bridge a gap and prove that they were wanting a peaceful existence , they would abide by the wishes of the vast majority of Americans and say "you know we do have the right to build this, but out of respect for the dead and to further prove that we are in no way associated with the hateful Muslims who pervert our religion, we choose not to." Or something similar.

Let me put it this way. Let's say we're next door neighbors and I come over and introduce myself and say " I just want to be good neighbors" then I wake you up at 3 AM with my loud music and you ask me not to play my music loudly at 3 AM and say ok look it is my RIGHT to play my music loudly at 3 AM do you believe me when I claim I want to be a good neighbor? Of course not, and logically so.

1. Such is his protected freedom of speech.

2. I can link half a dozen books written by christians which describe a desire to apply christian morals to secular laws. Books don't mean that such will occur. However, allowing ourselves to limit muslims means that we take one step closer to allowing it to happen even if the flavor is christian instead of islamic.

3. Your standard is YOUR strawman, not theirs. THEY can choose how THEY want to bridge a gap if they choose to do so. And, they are not required to do so anymore than christians are out apologizing to child victims. THESE are American muslims whose families died in 9/11 too. This is America; they count too even if some of America thinks they all look and act the same.


If we were to be good neighbors the last thing you'd want to do is come and tell me that I can't build a garage on my land because your last neighbor crashed into your garage.

 

[Modbert]

A corrupt church no more represents Christ teaching anymore than a a non violent muslim represents Islam or the teaching of mohammad.

So according to you, muslims have to be violent or they're not real muslims at all?

 

[Shogun]

That is EXACTLY what it is. Read a history book. Islamic tradition build a mosque on a site of victory. Read rauf's book he says the US deserved 9/11.

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

But of course American Muslims died. You know they don't think twice about killing their own. Look at what they do to women. Did you see the cover of Time this week? (or last week..forget which)

Shall I judge you because Warren Jeffs, a christian, likes to accumulate 13 year old brides? Eric Rudolph is a christian too. I guess it's easier to balance on a line of bullshit when your field of vision is narrowed to only look at others.

 

[Shogun]

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

But of course American Muslims died. You know they don't think twice about killing their own. Look at what they do to women. Did you see the cover of Time this week? (or last week..forget which)

I honestly do not see how any woman could defend anything from that religeon. Even the most moderate Muslim believes women are property to be abused as her "owner" sees fit.

They are barbarians, it's that simple.

Ironically, women in christianity have BARELY become more than property of their husbands. I can nitpick bible scripture too. There are negative elements in every faith; trying to pretend that it's only muslims that beat their wives is just disingenuous.

 

[ConHog]

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

We are not judging these Muslims by the actions of others. We are judging them by their OWN actions. Namely

1. The main Imam behind the mosque is on record as blaming, at least partly, the US for the 9/11 attacks.

2. Rauf penned a book in which he expressed his desire to impose Sharia law in the US

3. And most importantly, IF they truly wished to bridge a gap and prove that they were wanting a peaceful existence , they would abide by the wishes of the vast majority of Americans and say "you know we do have the right to build this, but out of respect for the dead and to further prove that we are in no way associated with the hateful Muslims who pervert our religion, we choose not to." Or something similar.

Let me put it this way. Let's say we're next door neighbors and I come over and introduce myself and say " I just want to be good neighbors" then I wake you up at 3 AM with my loud music and you ask me not to play my music loudly at 3 AM and say ok look it is my RIGHT to play my music loudly at 3 AM do you believe me when I claim I want to be a good neighbor? Of course not, and logically so.

1. Such is his protected freedom of speech.

2. I can link half a dozen books written by christians which describe a desire to apply christian morals to secular laws. Books don't mean that such will occur. However, allowing ourselves to limit muslims means that we take one step closer to allowing it to happen even if the flavor is christian instead of islamic.

3. Your standard is YOUR strawman, not theirs. THEY can choose how THEY want to bridge a gap if they choose to do so. And, they are not required to do so anymore than christians are out apologizing to child victims. THESE are American muslims whose families died in 9/11 too. This is America; they count too even if some of America thinks they all look and act the same.


If we were to be good neighbors the last thing you'd want to do is come and tell me that I can't build a garage on my land because your last neighbor crashed into your garage.

What part of "martyrs" do you not understand? They don't grieve for the Muslims who were killed on 9/11 because they consider them to be martyrs regardless of whether they chose to be or not.

I think you really lack a basic of understanding of Islam. it is NOT a peaceful religion. Check out this list.

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

Actually that entire site is interesting. I'm sorry, but facts are facts, Islam is an evil religion. and your disingenuous attempts to compare it to Christianity are beneath you.

Now, if you want to make the argument that Muslims have the right to build a shrine despite the fact that they are of an evil murderous religion. I would agree with you. They DO have the right. But the argument that this is anything other than what it is, a big fuck you USA, is ludicrous.

 

[ConHog]

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

But of course American Muslims died. You know they don't think twice about killing their own. Look at what they do to women. Did you see the cover of Time this week? (or last week..forget which)

Shall I judge you because Warren Jeffs, a christian, likes to accumulate 13 year old brides? Eric Rudolph is a christian too. I guess it's easier to balance on a line of bullshit when your field of vision is narrowed to only look at others.

Just stop. Warren Jeffs is a nut, The Bible explicitly demands that we follow man's laws, which obviously precludes us from marrying 13 year olds.

On the other hand.....................

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

 

[The Infidel]

Ironically, women in christianity have BARELY become more than property of their husbands. I can nitpick bible scripture too. There are negative elements in every faith; trying to pretend that it's only muslims that beat their wives is just disingenuous.

Wrongo! (not even a nice try!)

Any man who abuses his wife and treats her like a second class citizen is NO christian.

I have gone to church in several different faiths in my years on earth and not ONE, and I mean NOT ONE has EVER endorsed treating your wife like a piece of property.... NOT EVER!
Also, if I had, I would have left and never went back.

Ephesians 5:25-27
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.

Galatians 3:27
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ

1 Peter 3:7
You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.


Colossians 3:19 (New International Version)

Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

 

[The Infidel]

Bottom line on this mosque.... They have every right to build it.

Problem is.... what kind of religion would proceed with the plans (even though they were in place before 9/11/2001) knowing that is going to be so painful to so many Americans and fellow New Yorkers?

I have a bad feeling about the future of that site. I dont see any self respecting construction worker being a part of that building site either. New Yorkers have way too much pride. (At least the blue collar does)

 

[Kat]

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

But of course American Muslims died. You know they don't think twice about killing their own. Look at what they do to women. Did you see the cover of Time this week? (or last week..forget which)

Shall I judge you because Warren Jeffs, a christian, likes to accumulate 13 year old brides? Eric Rudolph is a christian too. I guess it's easier to balance on a line of bullshit when your field of vision is narrowed to only look at others.

If this were an isolated incident, I would say you have a good point. We know that is not the case though.

 

[Modbert]

Ephesians 5:25-27
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.

Galatians 3:27
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ

1 Peter 3:7
You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.


Colossians 3:19 (New International Version)

Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

Ephesians 5:22-24 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Ephesians 5:22-24

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Since you love quoting Ephesians, I'll do so again:

Ephesians 6:5-6 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Ephesians 6:5-6:

5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

From the mouth of Christ himself:

Luke 12:45-48 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Luke 12:45-48

45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Let's take a full quote from Colossians, shall we?

Colossians 3:18-22 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Colossians 3:18-22:

18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

20Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

21Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

22Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Well hells bells, one verse before it's telling wives to submit to their husbands and two verses later it's telling slaves to obey their masters and do everything as if they love it for the lord.

See, this is what happens when you don't give full context to your quotes.

 

[Shogun]

We are not judging these Muslims by the actions of others. We are judging them by their OWN actions. Namely

1. The main Imam behind the mosque is on record as blaming, at least partly, the US for the 9/11 attacks.

2. Rauf penned a book in which he expressed his desire to impose Sharia law in the US

3. And most importantly, IF they truly wished to bridge a gap and prove that they were wanting a peaceful existence , they would abide by the wishes of the vast majority of Americans and say "you know we do have the right to build this, but out of respect for the dead and to further prove that we are in no way associated with the hateful Muslims who pervert our religion, we choose not to." Or something similar.

Let me put it this way. Let's say we're next door neighbors and I come over and introduce myself and say " I just want to be good neighbors" then I wake you up at 3 AM with my loud music and you ask me not to play my music loudly at 3 AM and say ok look it is my RIGHT to play my music loudly at 3 AM do you believe me when I claim I want to be a good neighbor? Of course not, and logically so.

1. Such is his protected freedom of speech.

2. I can link half a dozen books written by christians which describe a desire to apply christian morals to secular laws. Books don't mean that such will occur. However, allowing ourselves to limit muslims means that we take one step closer to allowing it to happen even if the flavor is christian instead of islamic.

3. Your standard is YOUR strawman, not theirs. THEY can choose how THEY want to bridge a gap if they choose to do so. And, they are not required to do so anymore than christians are out apologizing to child victims. THESE are American muslims whose families died in 9/11 too. This is America; they count too even if some of America thinks they all look and act the same.


If we were to be good neighbors the last thing you'd want to do is come and tell me that I can't build a garage on my land because your last neighbor crashed into your garage.

What part of "martyrs" do you not understand? They don't grieve for the Muslims who were killed on 9/11 because they consider them to be martyrs regardless of whether they chose to be or not.

I think you really lack a basic of understanding of Islam. it is NOT a peaceful religion. Check out this list.

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

Actually that entire site is interesting. I'm sorry, but facts are facts, Islam is an evil religion. and your disingenuous attempts to compare it to Christianity are beneath you.

Now, if you want to make the argument that Muslims have the right to build a shrine despite the fact that they are of an evil murderous religion. I would agree with you. They DO have the right. But the argument that this is anything other than what it is, a big fuck you USA, is ludicrous.

It seems that THIS POST pretty much sums up what REALLY is your problem with this mosque: islam in general. That, sir, makes you a bigot. It's only a big "fuck you" if you refuse to validate american muslims which, clearly, you have.

 

[ConHog]

Ephesians 5:25-27
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.

Galatians 3:27
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ

1 Peter 3:7
You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.


Colossians 3:19 (New International Version)

Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

Ephesians 5:22-24 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Ephesians 5:22-24

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Since you love quoting Ephesians, I'll do so again:

Ephesians 6:5-6 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Ephesians 6:5-6:



From the mouth of Christ himself:

Luke 12:45-48 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Luke 12:45-48

45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Let's take a full quote from Colossians, shall we?

Colossians 3:18-22 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

Colossians 3:18-22:

18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

20Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

21Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

22Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Well hells bells, one verse before it's telling wives to submit to their husbands and two verses later it's telling slaves to obey their masters and do everything as if they love it for the lord.

See, this is what happens when you don't give full context to your quotes.

Romans

13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Clearly since our nation's laws outlaw slavery we are to obey them and not take slaves, and if you don't own slaves well the portion of the Bible instructing you how to treat them obviously don't apply. Just like if you're not married, the instructions on how to treat your wife don't apply to you.

 

[Modbert]

It seems that THIS POST pretty much sums up what REALLY is your problem with this mosque: islam in general. That, sir, makes you a bigot. It's only a big "fuck you" if you refuse to validate american muslims which, clearly, you have.

Well he did thank a post where Mr. Fitnah said non-violent Muslims are not real muslims.

 

[ConHog]

1. Such is his protected freedom of speech.

2. I can link half a dozen books written by christians which describe a desire to apply christian morals to secular laws. Books don't mean that such will occur. However, allowing ourselves to limit muslims means that we take one step closer to allowing it to happen even if the flavor is christian instead of islamic.

3. Your standard is YOUR strawman, not theirs. THEY can choose how THEY want to bridge a gap if they choose to do so. And, they are not required to do so anymore than christians are out apologizing to child victims. THESE are American muslims whose families died in 9/11 too. This is America; they count too even if some of America thinks they all look and act the same.


If we were to be good neighbors the last thing you'd want to do is come and tell me that I can't build a garage on my land because your last neighbor crashed into your garage.

What part of "martyrs" do you not understand? They don't grieve for the Muslims who were killed on 9/11 because they consider them to be martyrs regardless of whether they chose to be or not.

I think you really lack a basic of understanding of Islam. it is NOT a peaceful religion. Check out this list.

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

Actually that entire site is interesting. I'm sorry, but facts are facts, Islam is an evil religion. and your disingenuous attempts to compare it to Christianity are beneath you.

Now, if you want to make the argument that Muslims have the right to build a shrine despite the fact that they are of an evil murderous religion. I would agree with you. They DO have the right. But the argument that this is anything other than what it is, a big fuck you USA, is ludicrous.

It seems that THIS POST pretty much sums up what REALLY is your problem with this mosque: islam in general. That, sir, makes you a bigot. It's only a big "fuck you" if you refuse to validate american muslims which, clearly, you have.

If understanding that their religion is built on violence and hate makes me a bigot, hand me my name tag, I'm a bigot, I have NO problem wearing that.

 

[Shogun]

But of course American Muslims died. You know they don't think twice about killing their own. Look at what they do to women. Did you see the cover of Time this week? (or last week..forget which)

Shall I judge you because Warren Jeffs, a christian, likes to accumulate 13 year old brides? Eric Rudolph is a christian too. I guess it's easier to balance on a line of bullshit when your field of vision is narrowed to only look at others.

Just stop. Warren Jeffs is a nut, The Bible explicitly demands that we follow man's laws, which obviously precludes us from marrying 13 year olds.

On the other hand.....................

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

Atta was a nut. See how easy it was for YOU to distance yourself from a fucked up christian while refusing muslims the same prerogative?

And, there is nothing "obvious" about religion of any flavor. Your opinion on any apsect of your own faith is in conflict with the opinions of others who share your faith. This is why it's funny when YOU try to sidestep Jeffs while insisting that all muslims are out to kill.


and, keep in mind, I can quote the bible too. I know you REALLY don't want me to start doing that.

 

[Shogun]

Ironically, women in christianity have BARELY become more than property of their husbands. I can nitpick bible scripture too. There are negative elements in every faith; trying to pretend that it's only muslims that beat their wives is just disingenuous.

Wrongo! (not even a nice try!)

Any man who abuses his wife and treats her like a second class citizen is NO christian.

I have gone to church in several different faiths in my years on earth and not ONE, and I mean NOT ONE has EVER endorsed treating your wife like a piece of property.... NOT EVER!
Also, if I had, I would have left and never went back.

Ephesians 5:25-27
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.

Galatians 3:27
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ

1 Peter 3:7
You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.


Colossians 3:19 (New International Version)

Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

go tell it to the womens suffrage movement BARELY 50 years ago. The bible is often interpreted by those who want it to say something as validation for what they wan to here. In this case, YOUR complete lack of historic knowledge of the role of women in christian cultures.




oh you people are fucking hilarious.

 

[Modbert]

Romans

13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Clearly since our nation's laws outlaw slavery we are to obey them and not take slaves, and if you don't own slaves well the portion of the Bible instructing you how to treat them obviously don't apply. Just like if you're not married, the instructions on how to treat your wife don't apply to you.

All I see that passage saying is that you better follow the rules where you live, otherwise you're going to get shanked. The whole verse is about submission to authorities, which if was the case nothing would ever change.

 

[Shogun]

Bottom line on this mosque.... They have every right to build it.

Problem is.... what kind of religion would proceed with the plans (even though they were in place before 9/11/2001) knowing that is going to be so painful to so many Americans and fellow New Yorkers?

I have a bad feeling about the future of that site. I dont see any self respecting construction worker being a part of that building site either. New Yorkers have way too much pride. (At least the blue collar does)

Well, when you find yourself acting like Mohammed Atta, ironically, feel free to remember that we Americans prosecute terrorists foreign AND domestic.

I'll be 100 rep points that workers in NY will build it regardless of your laughable guilt trip. Especially in this economic climate.

 

[bodecea]

I said it in another thread...they own the land, they have every right to build...but I would get a chuckle out of a Gay Community Center going up next door.

 

[Shogun]

But of course American Muslims died. You know they don't think twice about killing their own. Look at what they do to women. Did you see the cover of Time this week? (or last week..forget which)

Shall I judge you because Warren Jeffs, a christian, likes to accumulate 13 year old brides? Eric Rudolph is a christian too. I guess it's easier to balance on a line of bullshit when your field of vision is narrowed to only look at others.

If this were an isolated incident, I would say you have a good point. We know that is not the case though.

And, if child abuse were an isolated incident in the catholic church and didn't require a pope-condoned coverup...

see how easy this is?