Interesting argument against the Ground Zero Mosque

[Smartt33]

Two things:

1. If this is an honest effort to make amends then there needs to be a very public and loud outcry against Islamic terrorists, or Islamic extreemists by the people who want the Mosque to be built. Where is that outcry? There is NONE!

2. If it is a way to make amends, let America see where the money is coming from. They refuse to do so. That would lead me to believe that this is not a humanitarial effort, but a monument of "Conquest."

That is my opinion.

I also believe Obama and His administration is hiding from the issue because Obama is Muslim and an extreemist.

 

[topspin]

and I believe you have an IQ below room temperature. IMO

 

[NYcarbineer]

I have nothing against a Mosque being built. Just not where they want to build it.

Strikes me as kinda funny that Muslims are always accusing Americans of being insensitive and yet they show complete insensitivity in this matter.

I also wonder if any NY construction company would actually build a mosque that close to ground zero??

Let them build it somewhere else in NY City. Jeeze.

1. What is the exact distance from ground zero that mosques may be built?

2. What if you're a widow of a 9/11 victim, and you live in, say, Greenwich, Connecticut. Do you have the right then to demand a no-mosque zone of a certain dimension around your house?

 

[NYcarbineer]

So, Let me start by saying I am not making this argument. I heard someone make it today and wanted to know what others thought of it as I found it rather compelling.

Note (I am personally leaning towards being oppose to the mosque being built where they want. But do not think we have a legal means to stop it, and would not support a non legal means)


The argument is that Islam has a tradition of building mosques on sites they have concurred. Now I do not even know it that is true. I mean we all know about the dome of the rock in Israel, but is this something they do all the time? Is it tradition to build mosques on the sites of some victory? If so how do you feel about the Mosque held in that light?

My personal Leaning towards being against it has to do with the loss of life at Ground Zero, The planned Mosques proximity to it, and the fact that the building they want to tear down actually had the landing gear of one of the planes that hit the WTC crash into it. That is How close it is to the site. I feel like they could build it just a few more blocks away and it will alleviate most of the angst about it. I feel that if this mosque and community center is really about reaching out to us, then they should respect the feelings of almost 70% of Americans and build it somewhere else. After all how can you reach out when you are doing something that many Americans are against?

We allow Mosques to be build all over the country, so this is not about discrimination, it is about the site, and the history of it.

However all that said, like I said I do not see any legal way left to stop it, and would not support any non legal way, So while I am personally opposed to it, I recognize their right to build it.

The mosque on the temple mount is all I need to decide how I feel on this issue.

They love rubbing shit in their enemy's faces. They don't have the decency to stay away so I don't think they have any moral right to building it there.

Do you think anyone would have even considered this on September 12 2001?

Why not simply amend the US Constitution to outlaw Islam in the US?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I've read plenty on this ConHog. You seem to be missing the point. Radicals attacked us on 9/11, using religion as their justification. In reality, they simply wanted to attack America. It's not like this was Al-Qaeda's first attack against us.

If you're going to blame the entire religion of Islam because a couple of radicals decided to use the religion's name in attacking us, then you might as well attacking Christians because of the abortion clinics bombing or the kid molesting scandal in the church.

In fact, using the logic in this thread, we should tear down every church within a half mile of a rape victim because it's insensitive.

holy strawman batman
you have pulled out so many just in this thread

So if treating all Christians the same as their bad apples (child molesters, abortion clinic bombers) a strawman, that makes treating all Muslims the same as their bad apples (terrorists)...

If you guessed a strawman, you'd be correct.

Produce the Christian scripture that sanctifies child molestation abortion bombing and rape.

Im certain it is not necessary to repost the clear order of genocide from Islamic scripture is it?

 

[Claudette]

I have nothing against a Mosque being built. Just not where they want to build it.

Strikes me as kinda funny that Muslims are always accusing Americans of being insensitive and yet they show complete insensitivity in this matter.

I also wonder if any NY construction company would actually build a mosque that close to ground zero??

Let them build it somewhere else in NY City. Jeeze.

1. What is the exact distance from ground zero that mosques may be built?

2. What if you're a widow of a 9/11 victim, and you live in, say, Greenwich, Connecticut. Do you have the right then to demand a no-mosque zone of a certain dimension around your house?

In answer to your 1. How about you ask the spouse of a victim of 9/11 how far is far enough??? I'm sure the answer won't be a block away.

2. Greenwich, CT isn't ground zero.

By your post I take it that you have no problem with a mosque a block from ground zero??

 

[bodecea]

If that's the way it is, then I suggest we invite Japan to build a temple to Shinto and/or Buddhism at Pearl Harbor. Let's just say "nothing is off limits in America." There are no boundaries. Have your fun killing us and then build a shrine to celebrate right on top of it. Yeah, that's us Americans. We don't consider anything off limits. We don't give a shit. Just go ahead. It's alright. We're all tolerant. Don't you just love us?

Uh. There are already Shinto temples/shrines in Hawaii. One is five miles away from Pearl Harbor.

That just left a mark....and I might add, the Japanese fleet often frequents Pearl Harbor...I've got some cool pictures I took standing on the quay of the Arizona Monument thru the stern of two Japanese Frigates with their battleflags flying.

 

[bodecea]

holy strawman batman
you have pulled out so many just in this thread

So if treating all Christians the same as their bad apples (child molesters, abortion clinic bombers) a strawman, that makes treating all Muslims the same as their bad apples (terrorists)...

If you guessed a strawman, you'd be correct.

Produce the Christian scripture that sanctifies child molestation abortion bombing and rape.
Im certain it is not necessary to repost the clear order of genocide from Islamic scripture is it?

Doesn't seem to stop them, does it?

 

[ConHog]

If that's the way it is, then I suggest we invite Japan to build a temple to Shinto and/or Buddhism at Pearl Harbor. Let's just say "nothing is off limits in America." There are no boundaries. Have your fun killing us and then build a shrine to celebrate right on top of it. Yeah, that's us Americans. We don't consider anything off limits. We don't give a shit. Just go ahead. It's alright. We're all tolerant. Don't you just love us?

Uh. There are already Shinto temples/shrines in Hawaii. One is five miles away from Pearl Harbor.

That just left a mark....and I might add, the Japanese fleet often frequents Pearl Harbor...I've got some cool pictures I took standing on the quay of the Arizona Monument thru the stern of two Japanese Frigates with their battleflags flying.

Psst the Shinto shrine which is 5 miles from Pearl Harbor was built in 1923, proof was provided earlier in the thread so no the shrine wasn't allowed to be built after the attack in 1941.

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force has proven itself to be one of the US Navies closest allies over the years and frequently exercises with them. So yes I beieve you may have seen a JDS frigate near Pearl Harbor. Have the Muslims proven to be a reliable friend to the US?

 

[ConHog]

So if treating all Christians the same as their bad apples (child molesters, abortion clinic bombers) a strawman, that makes treating all Muslims the same as their bad apples (terrorists)...

If you guessed a strawman, you'd be correct.

Produce the Christian scripture that sanctifies child molestation abortion bombing and rape.
Im certain it is not necessary to repost the clear order of genocide from Islamic scripture is it?

Doesn't seem to stop them, does it?

If a Christian who wrote a book saying that a little boy deserved to be ass raped ever wants to build a church near that little boy's home, I will protest. Until then, your strawman fails.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

So if treating all Christians the same as their bad apples (child molesters, abortion clinic bombers) a strawman, that makes treating all Muslims the same as their bad apples (terrorists)...

If you guessed a strawman, you'd be correct.

Produce the Christian scripture that sanctifies child molestation abortion bombing and rape.
Im certain it is not necessary to repost the clear order of genocide from Islamic scripture is it?

Doesn't seem to stop them, does it?

Until you are able to produce the scripture that sanctifies the offending acts, those acts cannot be used to represent Christian acts or representative of mainstream Christian belief.

Islam calls for the subjugation and eradication of all non muslims .

 

[bodecea]

Produce the Christian scripture that sanctifies child molestation abortion bombing and rape.
Im certain it is not necessary to repost the clear order of genocide from Islamic scripture is it?

Doesn't seem to stop them, does it?

Until you are able to produce the scripture that sanctifies the offending acts, those acts cannot be used to represent Christian acts or representative of mainstream Christian belief.

Islam calls for the subjugation and eradication of all non muslims .

It is not just the rank and file raping little boys and girls in the Catholic faith, is it now? It's the PRIESTS and they are being protected by the BISHOPS and CARDINALS.

But feel free to overlook that.

 

[ConHog]

Doesn't seem to stop them, does it?

Until you are able to produce the scripture that sanctifies the offending acts, those acts cannot be used to represent Christian acts or representative of mainstream Christian belief.

Islam calls for the subjugation and eradication of all non muslims .

It is not just the rank and file raping little boys and girls in the Catholic faith, is it now? It's the PRIESTS and they are being protected by the BISHOPS and CARDINALS.

But feel free to overlook that.

Stop with the stupidity, you know damn well that I don't overlook anything of the sort. It's despicable that children are abused by anyone, let alone men of faith. However, those men are not trying to build a shrine to celebrate their achievements and so they are apples and oranges.

 

[Shogun]

Until you are able to produce the scripture that sanctifies the offending acts, those acts cannot be used to represent Christian acts or representative of mainstream Christian belief.

Islam calls for the subjugation and eradication of all non muslims .

It is not just the rank and file raping little boys and girls in the Catholic faith, is it now? It's the PRIESTS and they are being protected by the BISHOPS and CARDINALS.

But feel free to overlook that.

Stop with the stupidity, you know damn well that I don't overlook anything of the sort. It's despicable that children are abused by anyone, let alone men of faith. However, those men are not trying to build a shrine to celebrate their achievements and so they are apples and oranges.

and that mosque is not trying to be a shrine to 9/11 either so.. I guess it really is apples to apples here.

 

[ConHog]

It is not just the rank and file raping little boys and girls in the Catholic faith, is it now? It's the PRIESTS and they are being protected by the BISHOPS and CARDINALS.

But feel free to overlook that.

Stop with the stupidity, you know damn well that I don't overlook anything of the sort. It's despicable that children are abused by anyone, let alone men of faith. However, those men are not trying to build a shrine to celebrate their achievements and so they are apples and oranges.

and that mosque is not trying to be a shrine to 9/11 either so.. I guess it really is apples to apples here.

That is EXACTLY what it is. Read a history book. Islamic tradition build a mosque on a site of victory. Read rauf's book he says the US deserved 9/11.

 

[Shogun]

Stop with the stupidity, you know damn well that I don't overlook anything of the sort. It's despicable that children are abused by anyone, let alone men of faith. However, those men are not trying to build a shrine to celebrate their achievements and so they are apples and oranges.

and that mosque is not trying to be a shrine to 9/11 either so.. I guess it really is apples to apples here.

That is EXACTLY what it is. Read a history book. Islamic tradition build a mosque on a site of victory. Read rauf's book he says the US deserved 9/11.

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

 

[ConHog]

and that mosque is not trying to be a shrine to 9/11 either so.. I guess it really is apples to apples here.

That is EXACTLY what it is. Read a history book. Islamic tradition build a mosque on a site of victory. Read rauf's book he says the US deserved 9/11.

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

We are not judging these Muslims by the actions of others. We are judging them by their OWN actions. Namely

1. The main Imam behind the mosque is on record as blaming, at least partly, the US for the 9/11 attacks.

2. Rauf penned a book in which he expressed his desire to impose Sharia law in the US

3. And most importantly, IF they truly wished to bridge a gap and prove that they were wanting a peaceful existence , they would abide by the wishes of the vast majority of Americans and say "you know we do have the right to build this, but out of respect for the dead and to further prove that we are in no way associated with the hateful Muslims who pervert our religion, we choose not to." Or something similar.

Let me put it this way. Let's say we're next door neighbors and I come over and introduce myself and say " I just want to be good neighbors" then I wake you up at 3 AM with my loud music and you ask me not to play my music loudly at 3 AM and say ok look it is my RIGHT to play my music loudly at 3 AM do you believe me when I claim I want to be a good neighbor? Of course not, and logically so.

 

[Kat]

and that mosque is not trying to be a shrine to 9/11 either so.. I guess it really is apples to apples here.

That is EXACTLY what it is. Read a history book. Islamic tradition build a mosque on a site of victory. Read rauf's book he says the US deserved 9/11.

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

But of course American Muslims died. You know they don't think twice about killing their own. Look at what they do to women. Did you see the cover of Time this week? (or last week..forget which)

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Doesn't seem to stop them, does it?

Until you are able to produce the scripture that sanctifies the offending acts, those acts cannot be used to represent Christian acts or representative of mainstream Christian belief.

Islam calls for the subjugation and eradication of all non muslims .

It is not just the rank and file raping little boys and girls in the Catholic faith, is it now? It's the PRIESTS and they are being protected by the BISHOPS and CARDINALS.

But feel free to overlook that.

A corrupt church no more represents Christ teaching anymore than a a non violent muslim represents Islam or the teaching of mohammad.

 

[ConHog]

That is EXACTLY what it is. Read a history book. Islamic tradition build a mosque on a site of victory. Read rauf's book he says the US deserved 9/11.

You are reading too much into this and assuming more than is the case. It's an islamic center in one of the world's most culturally diverse cities which is located in the worlds most tolerant nation whose very first constitutional amendment protects against exactly what you are trying to do. When this mosque is built it will accentuate exactly what makes the US greater than other nations that have no problem selectively limiting religious freedom. And, as has been pointed out, muslims, AMERICAN MUSLIMS, died in 9/11 too. Do they not count because they shared a faith with the attackers? I think they do. I think that islam has a valid place in an American culture that puts more emphasis on a range of options rather than some homogenized, "we've already pissed on the tree of liberty and claim it for ourselves" attempt to limit it's application. Arguments of what is "in poor taste" or "insensitive" mean nothing to this issue. The same people who don't want this thing built are not trying to forgive muslims anyway (as if all muslims are guilty by association). This is why it's totally farcical to judge THESE muslims by the actions of other muslims when christians on this forum refuse to be judged by the actions of other christians. It's hypocritical and undermines the very standard by which the Constitution was penned as well as, essentially, putting a tangible face on every external criticism of the US ever sidestepped regarding our exceptionalism and validity associated with claiming to be the world's only bastion of freedom.

bottom line.

But of course American Muslims died. You know they don't think twice about killing their own. Look at what they do to women. Did you see the cover of Time this week? (or last week..forget which)

I honestly do not see how any woman could defend anything from that religeon. Even the most moderate Muslim believes women are property to be abused as her "owner" sees fit.

They are barbarians, it's that simple.