Inward and Outward Holiness

[Chuckt]

From the WCT “Holiness of Heart” found in Jeremiah 31:

In Jer. God promises “a new covenant.” God will write God’s law on people’s hearts. Then truly “I will be their God, and they shall be my people (Jer 31:31, 33).

Holiness of heart, not mere ceremonial holiness, has always been God’s goal for his people. God intends inner transformation – the cleansing and liberating of the inmost springs of action and motivation. Jesus emphasized that evil attitudes and actions come from within (Mark 7:21-23). It is the heart, therefore, that must be cleansed.

Wesley saw that “holiness of heart” could be misunderstood, however, as solely an interior change. The outward ethical dimension so prominent in Scripture could be missed. So Wesley often used the phrase “inward and outward” (or “all inward and outward”) holiness to forestall any disconnection between inner transformation and outward behavior. Holiness of heart means transformation by God’s grace, enabling people to be holy, loving, and Christ-like in their relationships with one another and with the land.

https://johnmeunier.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/wesley-study-bible-on-holiness/

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Great message, Chuck.

 

[thebrucebeat]

The very reason I so often confront Christians on this board with the Fruits of the Spirit and wonder why they are so frequently ignored.
Nowhere else in scripture is a more succinct description to be found of what a synchronicity of the inner and outer genuine holiness should look like.

 

[The Irish Ram]

So are you implying that unless the fruits are visible at all times, the Spirit is not in them?

 

[Chuckt]

So are you implying that unless the fruits are visible at all times, the Spirit is not in them?

We need our unholiness atoned for.

 

[The Irish Ram]

We absolutely do. Thank God for Christ.

Atonement Definition
n. noun
Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation.
Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.
The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.

What I want Bruce to understand, is that even though some one may be endowed with the Holy Spirit, man's emotions enter into the picture as well, because we are human as well.

Bruce, which of the fruits of the Spirit that you judge us according to, was Christ displaying while He turned over the money exchange tables at the Temple?

 

[thebrucebeat]

So are you implying that unless the fruits are visible at all times, the Spirit is not in them?

I'm suggesting they should at least occasionally be recognizable in a believer and they should be remorseful when they fail to live up to them.
What do you think?

 

[thebrucebeat]

We absolutely do. Thank God for Christ.

Atonement Definition
n. noun
Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation.
Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.
The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.

What I want Bruce to understand, is that even though some one may be endowed with the Holy Spirit, man's emotions enter into the picture as well, because we are human as well.

Bruce, which of the fruits of the Spirit that you judge us according to, was Christ displaying while He turned over the money exchange tables at the Temple?

What is your point? Do you think they therefore don't apply?
Why does every believer try to wiggle out of the Fruits and create an excuse for their ignoring them?
It is nearly a universal aversion.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I don't believe every believer does ignore them. Are they constant? No. Do the fruits nullify human behavior? Not always, nor by a long shot. The Holy Spirit resided in King David, not far from David's manhood, and we know which took temporary control of that situation. David was a believer who strove to please God. A human believer as fallible and at times as unfruitful as they come.

Instead of scouring the forum for a lack of fruit as some sort of victory, maybe our time would be better spent recognizing fruit when we see it and strive to perpetuate it where there is lack.

 

[thebrucebeat]

I don't believe every believer does ignore them. Are they constant? No. Do the fruits nullify human behavior? Not always, nor by a long shot. The Holy Spirit resided in King David, not far from David's manhood, and we know which took temporary control of that situation. David was a believer who strove to please God. A human believer as fallible and at times as unfruitful as they come.

Instead of scouring the forum for a lack of fruit as some sort of victory, maybe our time would be better spent recognizing fruit when we see it and strive to perpetuate it where there is lack.

No one said "every believer", so you start your post with a dishonest response. People that are confronted with the Fruits invariably get angry and invent reasons why they aren't expected to live up to them.
The point is no "scouring" is required. The vulgarity, the rudeness, the brutality of some of the most prolific believing posters on here jump off the screen like gunshots.

 

[The Irish Ram]

We absolutely do. Thank God for Christ.

Atonement Definition
n. noun
Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation.
Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.
The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.

What I want Bruce to understand, is that even though some one may be endowed with the Holy Spirit, man's emotions enter into the picture as well, because we are human as well.

Bruce, which of the fruits of the Spirit that you judge us according to, was Christ displaying while He turned over the money exchange tables at the Temple?

What is your point? Do you think they therefore don't apply?
Why does every believer try to wiggle out of the Fruits and create an excuse for their ignoring them?
It is nearly a universal aversion.

I'm sure I saw "every believer" somewhere.............

 

[thebrucebeat]

We absolutely do. Thank God for Christ.

Atonement Definition
n. noun
Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation.
Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.
The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.

What I want Bruce to understand, is that even though some one may be endowed with the Holy Spirit, man's emotions enter into the picture as well, because we are human as well.

Bruce, which of the fruits of the Spirit that you judge us according to, was Christ displaying while He turned over the money exchange tables at the Temple?

What is your point? Do you think they therefore don't apply?
Why does every believer try to wiggle out of the Fruits and create an excuse for their ignoring them?
It is nearly a universal aversion.

I'm sure I saw "every believer" somewhere.............

Every believer confronted with their egregious behavior was my intent.
My apologies.
In that category, however, the track record is 100% avoidance.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hon, the Bible tells fathers not to provoke their children to wrath. Provoking produces wrath. Would it be safe to say that the reaction you garner from some posters has more to do with them being provoked rather than a lack of fruit? I have witnessed and received fruit filled responses from every person you have accused. I have seen them produce fruit and receive fruit from others. If you don't elicit the same responses, could the fault be in you perhaps and not all of them? Could it be something you lack? Have you gotten so busy pointing out what's missing in everyone else that you forgot to address your own vacancies?

If you started your posts with a kind word instead of an insult, the responses you get might be quite different, and as fruit filled as a peach pie. There are some pretty nice people here, kind and helpful.
But, if you bait someone to induce a fruitless response, I'm not sure you get to separate yourself to any loftier position than the people you belittle. You are culpable in inciting friction.
As for the 100% club, there is nothing you can say or do that can or will effect my sweet Jesus peace. Your math is off.

 

[Avatar4321]

The very reason I so often confront Christians on this board with the Fruits of the Spirit and wonder why they are so frequently ignored.
Nowhere else in scripture is a more succinct description to be found of what a synchronicity of the inner and outer genuine holiness should look like.

Maybe instead of confronting others with it, you should worry about confronting yourself with them.

 

[thebrucebeat]

The very reason I so often confront Christians on this board with the Fruits of the Spirit and wonder why they are so frequently ignored.
Nowhere else in scripture is a more succinct description to be found of what a synchronicity of the inner and outer genuine holiness should look like.

Maybe instead of confronting others with it, you should worry about confronting yourself with them.

They aren't my scriptures.
I'll add your name to the list of believers that fights back against the Fruits.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

So are you implying that unless the fruits are visible at all times, the Spirit is not in them?

We need our unholiness atoned for.

What about when we are continuing on in unholiness after coming to Christ? The new testament addresses this on numerous occasions. This is where you and I disagree and I have to defend Brucebeat's position. There is a point made there. We cannot be cursing people out, calling them names like stupid and then expecting them to hear the gospel. I find no example of that in new testament message. We are to seek to be at peace with all people because without holiness no one will see the Lord.

I'm not talking about sinless perfection, Chuck. But there should be a stark contrast in the behavior of Christians vs the world. Of course Irish Ram made a great point about provocation but isn't it up to the individual whether or not they hold their own integrity intact? I think it is. On that note Brucebeat does make a point. imo.

I do not believe Christians who are living like the world can enter heaven. My bible doesn't teach that the path is wide. In fact, we are to strive to enter into the narrow gate. What does the word strive mean in that particular bible verse? To agonize. I don't see alot of agonizing believers.

 

[thebrucebeat]

So are you implying that unless the fruits are visible at all times, the Spirit is not in them?

We need our unholiness atoned for.

What about when we are continuing on in unholiness after coming to Christ? The new testament addresses this on numerous occasions. This is where you and I disagree and I have to defend Brucebeat's position. There is a point made there. We cannot be cursing people out, calling them names like stupid and then expecting them to hear the gospel. I find no example of that in new testament message. We are to seek to be at peace with all people because without holiness no one will see the Lord.

I'm not talking about sinless perfection, Chuck. But there should be a stark contrast in the behavior of Christians vs the world. Of course Irish Ram made a great point about provocation but isn't it up to the individual whether or not they hold their own integrity intact? I think it is. On that note Brucebeat does make a point. imo.

I do not believe Christians who are living like the world can enter heaven. My bible doesn't teach that the path is wide. In fact, we are to strive to enter into the narrow gate. What does the word strive mean in that particular bible verse? To agonize. I don't see alot of agonizing believers.

Thank you. That is the point.
Maybe it can be heard coming from a believer.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Hon, the Bible tells fathers not to provoke their children to wrath. Provoking produces wrath. Would it be safe to say that the reaction you garner from some posters has more to do with them being provoked rather than a lack of fruit? I have witnessed and received fruit filled responses from every person you have accused. I have seen them produce fruit and receive fruit from others. If you don't elicit the same responses, could the fault be in you perhaps and not all of them? Could it be something you lack? Have you gotten so busy pointing out what's missing in everyone else that you forgot to address your own vacancies?

If you started your posts with a kind word instead of an insult, the responses you get might be quite different, and as fruit filled as a peach pie. There are some pretty nice people here, kind and helpful.
But, if you bait someone to induce a fruitless response, I'm not sure you get to separate yourself to any loftier position than the people you belittle. You are culpable in inciting friction.
As for the 100% club, there is nothing you can say or do that can or will effect my sweet Jesus peace. Your math is off.

But I don't confront Jesus, so the math remains untouched.
I often bring up the Fruits when not addressing anyone in particular and get unsolicited push back, much like what has happened in this thread and your responses. If you read my original post in this thread it was simply a general observation. It is you that decided to defend those who would ignore the Fruits and fabricate an excuse for it.
Not trying to create a "loftier position" for myself. You can't explain away the believer rejecting the Fruits with my shortcomings, or blame me for theirs. They have a clear roadmap of how they should appear to the world. Paul includes no caveat for "except if people confront you". The compelling thing about the Fruits is when they are displayed when others couldn't imagine they could be. Otherwise they are fairly normal and mundane. They only become transcendent when displayed in a challenging environment.