Irrefutable legal arguments supporting the right of secession

[bripat9643]

The assassination of Lincoln only increased the tragic consequences for the South after the failed rebellion. His murder by a frustrated coward only made things worse.

He sure as hell wasn't a coward. Assassinating a dictator takes a lot of courage.

How was lincoln a dictator? Oh wait, he wasn't, you're a fucking nut, this doesn't surprise me since you believe "marxism" has infected all of society, dude, you have no fucking idea what marxism is, let alone anything about lincoln.

He threw people into concentration camps without a trial. He shut down 300 newspapers for printing criticism of his policies. He threw the entire state legislature of Maryland in prison. He had people executed without a trial. He waged war on his fellow Americans.

How is he not a dictator?

Concentration camps? What the hell? Oh, because lincoln is the only one who ever did this.. We might aswell call the president during the red scare a dictator for viciously hunting down communists/socialists and shutting down the left wing, but no, you're ok with that, you partisan fuck. He executed people without a trial? Oh, you mean the people who declared war on the union? Fuck off, you've been shit on through this entire thread, you're a laughing stock on par with PC.

American Concentration Camps

Lincoln's first act was the suspension of habeas corpus on April 27, 1861. Habeas Corpus or, literally, "find the body," was the Constitutional law that required the government to actually provide a reason for locking someone away. There would be no protests allowed and all those who didn't want to be drafted, etc. found themselves as a disappearo in one of Abe's new Happy Camps, if they were lucky. If they weren't so lucky they found themselves executed without even a Bush tribunal or, as the citizens of New York City found out, being slaughtered by broadsides from US Battleships anchored in the harbor. Half of New York City was either burnt to the ground or shelled into little pieces along with the residents of old New York. Talk about your collateral damage! Hundreds died, thousands were wounded and many blacks were lynched!

 

[bripat9643]

He sure as hell wasn't a coward. Assassinating a dictator takes a lot of courage.

How was lincoln a dictator? Oh wait, he wasn't, you're a fucking nut, this doesn't surprise me since you believe "marxism" has infected all of society, dude, you have no fucking idea what marxism is, let alone anything about lincoln.

He threw people into concentration camps without a trial. He shut down 300 newspapers for printing criticism of his policies. He threw the entire state legislature of Maryland in prison. He had people executed without a trial. He waged war on his fellow Americans.

How is he not a dictator?

Concentration camps? What the hell? Oh, because lincoln is the only one who ever did this.. We might aswell call the president during the red scare a dictator for viciously hunting down communists/socialists and shutting down the left wing, but no, you're ok with that, you partisan fuck. He executed people without a trial? Oh, you mean the people who declared war on the union? Fuck off, you've been shit on through this entire thread, you're a laughing stock on par with PC.

Lincoln s Crimes and Violations of the Constitution... - The History Forum

Lincoln as already mentioned, trashed the Constitution by suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus and sending troops door to door confiscating weapons in areas of Maryland.

• Lincoln ordered the arrest of thousands Marylanders for the crime of 'suspected Southern sympathies'.
• Lincoln ordered the arrest of US Congressman Henry May representing Maryland. #7
• Lincoln also had arrested...
  • Most of the Maryland State Legislature #8
  • Most of the Baltimore city council #9
  • The police commissioner of Baltimore #10
  • The mayor of Baltimore #11
  • Thousands of prominent Maryland citizens. #12
  • These people were arrested and held in Military prisons, without trial, some of them for years.
• April 25 1861, When it looks as though Maryland may secede from the Union, Lincoln sends a letter to General Winfield Scott giving him permission to bombard Maryland's Cities.

Lincoln was a War Criminal it s a FACT Southern Sentinel​

• The Lincoln administration allowed the taking of private property for public use without just compensation or due process of law.
• The Lincoln Administration routinely used water torture against the thousands of Union prisoners arrested and jailed without trail.
• He suspended the writ of habeas corpus without the consent of Congress (as required by the Constitution).
• He illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him.
• He re-instated and summarily promoted an Army officer who had been court martialed and cashiered by the US Army for war crimes.
• He even had an arrest warrant issued for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court because said justice refused to back his illegal actions.
• Chief Justice Roger B Taney ruled that Lincolns actions were illegal, criminal and unconstitutional.
• He invaded the South without the consent of Congress as required by the Constitution.
• He blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution.
• He imprisoned without trial, hundreds of newspaper editors and owners and censored all newspaper and telegraph communication.
• He created two new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Party's electoral vote.
• He ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure his Parties victories.
• He confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.
• He had his Generals attack US cities full of women and children and burn them to the ground.

 

[Socialist]

The assassination of Lincoln only increased the tragic consequences for the South after the failed rebellion. His murder by a frustrated coward only made things worse.

He sure as hell wasn't a coward. Assassinating a dictator takes a lot of courage.

How was lincoln a dictator? Oh wait, he wasn't, you're a fucking nut, this doesn't surprise me since you believe "marxism" has infected all of society, dude, you have no fucking idea what marxism is, let alone anything about lincoln.

He threw people into concentration camps without a trial. He shut down 300 newspapers for printing criticism of his policies. He threw the entire state legislature of Maryland in prison. He had people executed without a trial. He waged war on his fellow Americans.

How is he not a dictator?

Concentration camps? What the hell? Oh, because lincoln is the only one who ever did this.. We might aswell call the president during the red scare a dictator for viciously hunting down communists/socialists and shutting down the left wing, but no, you're ok with that, you partisan fuck. He executed people without a trial? Oh, you mean the people who declared war on the union? Fuck off, you've been shit on through this entire thread, you're a laughing stock on par with PC.

American Concentration Camps

Lincoln's first act was the suspension of habeas corpus on April 27, 1861. Habeas Corpus or, literally, "find the body," was the Constitutional law that required the government to actually provide a reason for locking someone away. There would be no protests allowed and all those who didn't want to be drafted, etc. found themselves as a disappearo in one of Abe's new Happy Camps, if they were lucky. If they weren't so lucky they found themselves executed without even a Bush tribunal or, as the citizens of New York City found out, being slaughtered by broadsides from US Battleships anchored in the harbor. Half of New York City was either burnt to the ground or shelled into little pieces along with the residents of old New York. Talk about your collateral damage! Hundreds died, thousands were wounded and many blacks were lynched!

Oh lord, you really are drinking the kool aid. Mind sourcing your fucking claims? That website is truly nutty, just scroll to the bottom LOL.

 

[Socialist]

How was lincoln a dictator? Oh wait, he wasn't, you're a fucking nut, this doesn't surprise me since you believe "marxism" has infected all of society, dude, you have no fucking idea what marxism is, let alone anything about lincoln.

He threw people into concentration camps without a trial. He shut down 300 newspapers for printing criticism of his policies. He threw the entire state legislature of Maryland in prison. He had people executed without a trial. He waged war on his fellow Americans.

How is he not a dictator?

Concentration camps? What the hell? Oh, because lincoln is the only one who ever did this.. We might aswell call the president during the red scare a dictator for viciously hunting down communists/socialists and shutting down the left wing, but no, you're ok with that, you partisan fuck. He executed people without a trial? Oh, you mean the people who declared war on the union? Fuck off, you've been shit on through this entire thread, you're a laughing stock on par with PC.

Lincoln s Crimes and Violations of the Constitution... - The History Forum

Lincoln as already mentioned, trashed the Constitution by suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus and sending troops door to door confiscating weapons in areas of Maryland.

• Lincoln ordered the arrest of thousands Marylanders for the crime of 'suspected Southern sympathies'.
• Lincoln ordered the arrest of US Congressman Henry May representing Maryland. #7
• Lincoln also had arrested...
  • Most of the Maryland State Legislature #8
  • Most of the Baltimore city council #9
  • The police commissioner of Baltimore #10
  • The mayor of Baltimore #11
  • Thousands of prominent Maryland citizens. #12
  • These people were arrested and held in Military prisons, without trial, some of them for years.
• April 25 1861, When it looks as though Maryland may secede from the Union, Lincoln sends a letter to General Winfield Scott giving him permission to bombard Maryland's Cities.

Lincoln was a War Criminal it s a FACT Southern Sentinel​

• The Lincoln administration allowed the taking of private property for public use without just compensation or due process of law.
• The Lincoln Administration routinely used water torture against the thousands of Union prisoners arrested and jailed without trail.
• He suspended the writ of habeas corpus without the consent of Congress (as required by the Constitution).
• He illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him.
• He re-instated and summarily promoted an Army officer who had been court martialed and cashiered by the US Army for war crimes.
• He even had an arrest warrant issued for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court because said justice refused to back his illegal actions.
• Chief Justice Roger B Taney ruled that Lincolns actions were illegal, criminal and unconstitutional.
• He invaded the South without the consent of Congress as required by the Constitution.
• He blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution.
• He imprisoned without trial, hundreds of newspaper editors and owners and censored all newspaper and telegraph communication.
• He created two new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Party's electoral vote.
• He ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure his Parties victories.
• He confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.
• He had his Generals attack US cities full of women and children and burn them to the ground.

Sorry, but I don't want to hear you, you're a fucking idiot, if we go down your line of thought, then almost every president was a horrid criminal.

 

[bripat9643]

He threw people into concentration camps without a trial. He shut down 300 newspapers for printing criticism of his policies. He threw the entire state legislature of Maryland in prison. He had people executed without a trial. He waged war on his fellow Americans.

How is he not a dictator?

Concentration camps? What the hell? Oh, because lincoln is the only one who ever did this.. We might aswell call the president during the red scare a dictator for viciously hunting down communists/socialists and shutting down the left wing, but no, you're ok with that, you partisan fuck. He executed people without a trial? Oh, you mean the people who declared war on the union? Fuck off, you've been shit on through this entire thread, you're a laughing stock on par with PC.

Lincoln s Crimes and Violations of the Constitution... - The History Forum

Lincoln as already mentioned, trashed the Constitution by suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus and sending troops door to door confiscating weapons in areas of Maryland.

• Lincoln ordered the arrest of thousands Marylanders for the crime of 'suspected Southern sympathies'.
• Lincoln ordered the arrest of US Congressman Henry May representing Maryland. #7
• Lincoln also had arrested...
  • Most of the Maryland State Legislature #8
  • Most of the Baltimore city council #9
  • The police commissioner of Baltimore #10
  • The mayor of Baltimore #11
  • Thousands of prominent Maryland citizens. #12
  • These people were arrested and held in Military prisons, without trial, some of them for years.
• April 25 1861, When it looks as though Maryland may secede from the Union, Lincoln sends a letter to General Winfield Scott giving him permission to bombard Maryland's Cities.

Lincoln was a War Criminal it s a FACT Southern Sentinel​

• The Lincoln administration allowed the taking of private property for public use without just compensation or due process of law.
• The Lincoln Administration routinely used water torture against the thousands of Union prisoners arrested and jailed without trail.
• He suspended the writ of habeas corpus without the consent of Congress (as required by the Constitution).
• He illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him.
• He re-instated and summarily promoted an Army officer who had been court martialed and cashiered by the US Army for war crimes.
• He even had an arrest warrant issued for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court because said justice refused to back his illegal actions.
• Chief Justice Roger B Taney ruled that Lincolns actions were illegal, criminal and unconstitutional.
• He invaded the South without the consent of Congress as required by the Constitution.
• He blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution.
• He imprisoned without trial, hundreds of newspaper editors and owners and censored all newspaper and telegraph communication.
• He created two new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Party's electoral vote.
• He ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure his Parties victories.
• He confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.
• He had his Generals attack US cities full of women and children and burn them to the ground.

Sorry, but I don't want to hear you, you're a fucking idiot, if we go down your line of thought, then almost every president was a horrid criminal.

Oh puhleeze. How many presidents slaughtered 850,000 Americans?

 

[Socialist]

Concentration camps? What the hell? Oh, because lincoln is the only one who ever did this.. We might aswell call the president during the red scare a dictator for viciously hunting down communists/socialists and shutting down the left wing, but no, you're ok with that, you partisan fuck. He executed people without a trial? Oh, you mean the people who declared war on the union? Fuck off, you've been shit on through this entire thread, you're a laughing stock on par with PC.

Lincoln s Crimes and Violations of the Constitution... - The History Forum

Lincoln as already mentioned, trashed the Constitution by suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus and sending troops door to door confiscating weapons in areas of Maryland.

• Lincoln ordered the arrest of thousands Marylanders for the crime of 'suspected Southern sympathies'.
• Lincoln ordered the arrest of US Congressman Henry May representing Maryland. #7
• Lincoln also had arrested...
  • Most of the Maryland State Legislature #8
  • Most of the Baltimore city council #9
  • The police commissioner of Baltimore #10
  • The mayor of Baltimore #11
  • Thousands of prominent Maryland citizens. #12
  • These people were arrested and held in Military prisons, without trial, some of them for years.
• April 25 1861, When it looks as though Maryland may secede from the Union, Lincoln sends a letter to General Winfield Scott giving him permission to bombard Maryland's Cities.

Lincoln was a War Criminal it s a FACT Southern Sentinel​

• The Lincoln administration allowed the taking of private property for public use without just compensation or due process of law.
• The Lincoln Administration routinely used water torture against the thousands of Union prisoners arrested and jailed without trail.
• He suspended the writ of habeas corpus without the consent of Congress (as required by the Constitution).
• He illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him.
• He re-instated and summarily promoted an Army officer who had been court martialed and cashiered by the US Army for war crimes.
• He even had an arrest warrant issued for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court because said justice refused to back his illegal actions.
• Chief Justice Roger B Taney ruled that Lincolns actions were illegal, criminal and unconstitutional.
• He invaded the South without the consent of Congress as required by the Constitution.
• He blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution.
• He imprisoned without trial, hundreds of newspaper editors and owners and censored all newspaper and telegraph communication.
• He created two new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Party's electoral vote.
• He ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure his Parties victories.
• He confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.
• He had his Generals attack US cities full of women and children and burn them to the ground.

Sorry, but I don't want to hear you, you're a fucking idiot, if we go down your line of thought, then almost every president was a horrid criminal.

Oh puhleeze. How many presidents slaughtered 850,000 Americans?

He slaughtered 850,000 americans? What the fuck are you talking about? You have yet to adequately source anything.

 

[bripat9643]

Lincoln s Crimes and Violations of the Constitution... - The History Forum

Lincoln as already mentioned, trashed the Constitution by suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus and sending troops door to door confiscating weapons in areas of Maryland.

• Lincoln ordered the arrest of thousands Marylanders for the crime of 'suspected Southern sympathies'.
• Lincoln ordered the arrest of US Congressman Henry May representing Maryland. #7
• Lincoln also had arrested...
  • Most of the Maryland State Legislature #8
  • Most of the Baltimore city council #9
  • The police commissioner of Baltimore #10
  • The mayor of Baltimore #11
  • Thousands of prominent Maryland citizens. #12
  • These people were arrested and held in Military prisons, without trial, some of them for years.
• April 25 1861, When it looks as though Maryland may secede from the Union, Lincoln sends a letter to General Winfield Scott giving him permission to bombard Maryland's Cities.

Lincoln was a War Criminal it s a FACT Southern Sentinel​

• The Lincoln administration allowed the taking of private property for public use without just compensation or due process of law.
• The Lincoln Administration routinely used water torture against the thousands of Union prisoners arrested and jailed without trail.
• He suspended the writ of habeas corpus without the consent of Congress (as required by the Constitution).
• He illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him.
• He re-instated and summarily promoted an Army officer who had been court martialed and cashiered by the US Army for war crimes.
• He even had an arrest warrant issued for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court because said justice refused to back his illegal actions.
• Chief Justice Roger B Taney ruled that Lincolns actions were illegal, criminal and unconstitutional.
• He invaded the South without the consent of Congress as required by the Constitution.
• He blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution.
• He imprisoned without trial, hundreds of newspaper editors and owners and censored all newspaper and telegraph communication.
• He created two new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Party's electoral vote.
• He ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure his Parties victories.
• He confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.
• He had his Generals attack US cities full of women and children and burn them to the ground.

Sorry, but I don't want to hear you, you're a fucking idiot, if we go down your line of thought, then almost every president was a horrid criminal.

Oh puhleeze. How many presidents slaughtered 850,000 Americans?

He slaughtered 850,000 americans? What the fuck are you talking about? You have yet to adequately source anything.

What do you consider an "adequate" source, ThinkProgress?

The facts posted about Lincoln's crimes are not even contested by most historians. Estimates of the the number of people killed during the war range from 630,000 to 850,000.

 

[JoeMoma]

I love Walter Williams. Here are his views about the Souths right to succession in 1861.

A MINORITY VIEW

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/15/HistoricalIgnoranceII

 

[Socialist]

Sorry, but I don't want to hear you, you're a fucking idiot, if we go down your line of thought, then almost every president was a horrid criminal.

Oh puhleeze. How many presidents slaughtered 850,000 Americans?

He slaughtered 850,000 americans? What the fuck are you talking about? You have yet to adequately source anything.

What do you consider an "adequate" source, ThinkProgress?

More then a random history forum that doesn't cite anything and a random conspiracy theorists website with 2 pictures.

 

[bripat9643]

Sorry, but I don't want to hear you, you're a fucking idiot, if we go down your line of thought, then almost every president was a horrid criminal.

Oh puhleeze. How many presidents slaughtered 850,000 Americans?

He slaughtered 850,000 americans? What the fuck are you talking about? You have yet to adequately source anything.

What do you consider an "adequate" source, ThinkProgress?

More then a random history forum that doesn't cite anything and a random conspiracy theorists website with 2 pictures.

Historians do not contest any of the facts posted. They simply make excuses for the Dictator.

 

[there4eyeM]

Secessionists dictated that strong measures were necessary. Any bad results can be laid at their feet.

 

[Socialist]

Sorry, but I don't want to hear you, you're a fucking idiot, if we go down your line of thought, then almost every president was a horrid criminal.

Oh puhleeze. How many presidents slaughtered 850,000 Americans?

He slaughtered 850,000 americans? What the fuck are you talking about? You have yet to adequately source anything.

What do you consider an "adequate" source, ThinkProgress?

More then a random history forum that doesn't cite anything and a random conspiracy theorists website with 2 pictures.

Historians do not contest any of the facts posted. They simply make excuses for the Dictator.

Errr, show me all of these historians who agree with your points, and provide evidence apart from the ramblings of a lunatic.

 

[Statistikhengst]

How was lincoln a dictator? Oh wait, he wasn't, you're a fucking nut, this doesn't surprise me since you believe "marxism" has infected all of society, dude, you have no fucking idea what marxism is, let alone anything about lincoln.

He threw people into concentration camps without a trial. He shut down 300 newspapers for printing criticism of his policies. He threw the entire state legislature of Maryland in prison. He had people executed without a trial. He waged war on his fellow Americans.

How is he not a dictator?

Concentration camps? What the hell? Oh, because lincoln is the only one who ever did this.. We might aswell call the president during the red scare a dictator for viciously hunting down communists/socialists and shutting down the left wing, but no, you're ok with that, you partisan fuck. He executed people without a trial? Oh, you mean the people who declared war on the union? Fuck off, you've been shit on through this entire thread, you're a laughing stock on par with PC.

Lincoln s Crimes and Violations of the Constitution... - The History Forum

Lincoln as already mentioned, trashed the Constitution by suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus and sending troops door to door confiscating weapons in areas of Maryland.

• Lincoln ordered the arrest of thousands Marylanders for the crime of 'suspected Southern sympathies'.
• Lincoln ordered the arrest of US Congressman Henry May representing Maryland. #7
• Lincoln also had arrested...
  • Most of the Maryland State Legislature #8
  • Most of the Baltimore city council #9
  • The police commissioner of Baltimore #10
  • The mayor of Baltimore #11
  • Thousands of prominent Maryland citizens. #12
  • These people were arrested and held in Military prisons, without trial, some of them for years.
• April 25 1861, When it looks as though Maryland may secede from the Union, Lincoln sends a letter to General Winfield Scott giving him permission to bombard Maryland's Cities.

Lincoln was a War Criminal it s a FACT Southern Sentinel​

• The Lincoln administration allowed the taking of private property for public use without just compensation or due process of law.
• The Lincoln Administration routinely used water torture against the thousands of Union prisoners arrested and jailed without trail.
• He suspended the writ of habeas corpus without the consent of Congress (as required by the Constitution).
• He illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him.
• He re-instated and summarily promoted an Army officer who had been court martialed and cashiered by the US Army for war crimes.
• He even had an arrest warrant issued for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court because said justice refused to back his illegal actions.
• Chief Justice Roger B Taney ruled that Lincolns actions were illegal, criminal and unconstitutional.
• He invaded the South without the consent of Congress as required by the Constitution.
• He blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution.
• He imprisoned without trial, hundreds of newspaper editors and owners and censored all newspaper and telegraph communication.
• He created two new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Party's electoral vote.
• He ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure his Parties victories.
• He confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.
• He had his Generals attack US cities full of women and children and burn them to the ground.

I agree. That is EXACTLY what you are. A little brat with his fingers in his ears.
Good for you. That's the first step toward finally healing.

 

[Skylar]

Let me explicitly refute the second so-called irrefutable point in the OP:

Second, and most importantly, the U.S. Constitution does not forbid secession. According to the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited to the states, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Stated alternatively, that which is not expressly prohibited by the Constitution is allowed.

The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution expressly prohibits state laws that violate federal law. Secession cannot be accomplished without the violation of federal law,

therefore secession is expressly prohibited by the Constitution.

Since there is no law against secession, it can easily be accomplished without violating the Supremacy clause.

Uhm, no. And it's been explained to you about 50 times on this thread.

Question: are you brain damaged, or simply an idiot savant?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

No, it's been repeated 50 times, and it's been wrong 50 times. The only evidence we have the secession violates the Supremacy clause is NYCarbineer's insistence that it doesn't. His understanding of the clause is that a state can't do anything the federal government doesn't want it to do even if there's no statute prohibiting it. I can't imagine a bigger pile of bullshit than that.

The Supremecy clause establishes, unambiguously, federal jurisdiction over all territory within a State. If the federal government can apply its law in the territory within a state then it is a sovereign of that territory. Since a State can also apply its laws to the same territory, the State and Federal government have concurrent jurisdiction. Or what Madison called 'concurrent government'.

And if you want to make any territorial decisions for territory under two sovereigns, you need the agreement of both. Not just one or the other. The Federal government can't unilaterally cede State territory to another state or power. Nor can the State unilaterally do the same. Only through agreement between the Federal and State government can territorial decisions be made.

As an example, look at the District of Columbia. Both Virginia and Maryland had to grant their permission for the land to be ceded for the capital. The federal government also had to agree. Only when BOTH sovereigns agreed could territorial decisions be made.

South Carolina didn't get the agreement of the other sovereign of the territory within South Carolina: the Federal government. And without the agreement of BOTH sovereigns, no territorial changes can be made. Thus, the territory remained under concurrent jurisdiction. As every State is part of the United States. And the US federal government has jurisdiction over the whole of the United States.

Including the territory in South Carolina.

That's made up horseshit. There is no basis in the Constitution or in law for it. If a state secedes, the federal government no longer has jurisdiction over any territory within its boundaries. That's the bottom line.

Says you. Madison himself recognizes concurrent government. With the Supremacy Clause extending federal jurisdiction across the whole United State, demonstrating the principle. And the United States includes every State. Establishing, undeniably, concurrent jurisdiction and two sovereigns over the territory within any State.

The State Government. And the Federal Government.

A State lacks the authority to unilaterally strip the Federal government of any of its constitutionally designated powers. And jurisdiction over the territory of a State is such a power, as articulated by the Supremacy Clause and elsewhere. Making a unilateral revocation of Federal jurisdiction over territory within a State something a State lacks the authority to do under the constitution.

And why unilateral secession is beyond the authority of a State to do. It would *at the very least* require the consent of the concurrent sovereign of that territory: the Federal Government. And per Madison himself, would require more than a majority of the other States as well.

Neither of which South Carolina or any other State in rebellion had.

Consequently, no change in territorial jurisdiction occurred or could occur. And the States remained under the jurisdiction of two sovereigns. The State government. And the US Federal Government.

Rendering your made up horseshit distinction between 'federal property' and 'federal territory' meaningless. As there is no territory within a State that is not also under Federal jurisdiction. As Federal jurisdiction extends to the whole United States. Which includes every State.

And it also explains why there is no mention of your imaginary distinction anywhere in US law, the Constitution, caselaw or the constitutional congress. You pulled it sideways out of your ass. Which again, is legally meaningless.

 

[there4eyeM]

There is also no mention by any poster of any reference to when, precisely, Perpetual Union ended, thus making even the potentiality for unilateral secession to be possible in a legal framework..

 

[Skylar]

The Supremacy Clause really does end this debate.

A State lacks the authority to unilaterally strip the Federal government of any of its constitutionally designated powers. The Supremacy Clause establishes that jurisdiction over the United States is such a power. Including every State.

Secession would strip the federal government of its constitutionally delegated jurisdiction. Ergo, secession is unconstitutional. As a State lacks the authority to strip the Federal Government of ANY constitutionally delegated powers. And any unilateral declaration of secession by a state would be invalid under the constitution.

The only way that your argument would work is if you claimed that the States weren't part of the United States. Otherwise, you're fucked.

 

[Statistikhengst]

There is also no mention by any poster of any reference to when, precisely, Perpetual Union ended, thus making even the potentiality for unilateral secession to be possible in a legal framework..

Let's face it: in end-effect, this is just massive RWNJ butthurt, mostly, but not limited exlusively, to Southerners, who still cannot believe that the South lost the Civil War.

It's really that simple.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

It's interesting to know how you would like to treat your fellow Americans.

Is everybody seeing this?

Lookit bripat make warm fuzzies for a man - and that man's co-conspirators - who killed a US President.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you approve of presidential assassination.

My attitude towards the man who assassinated Lincoln would be exactly the same as if he had assassinated Hitler, and for the exact same reason.

Lincoln was a tyrant and a mass murderer. He deserved to hang for his war crimes, along with all his generals.

^ Bripat announces again his approval of presidential assassination.

I hope the NSA is keeping an eye on you.

I don't approve a presidential assassination solely because it doesn't work. It only makes the one assassinated into a saint, and then his agenda becomes even more virulent.

And most historians agree that the South would have been treated more kindly after the war had Lincoln lived, like a brother come home rather than conquered territory. It's sad how things turned out, but there can be no doubt Lincoln had a lead ball with his name on it after all the death, suffering, and destruction he inflicted on the American continent.

 

[Skylar]

Sorry, but I don't want to hear you, you're a fucking idiot, if we go down your line of thought, then almost every president was a horrid criminal.

Oh puhleeze. How many presidents slaughtered 850,000 Americans?

He slaughtered 850,000 americans? What the fuck are you talking about? You have yet to adequately source anything.

What do you consider an "adequate" source, ThinkProgress?

The facts posted about Lincoln's crimes are not even contested by most historians. Estimates of the the number of people killed during the war range from 630,000 to 850,000.

The 'Lincoln's Crimes' part is is most definitely contested. Though your estimates of the dead are reasonably accurate. The estimates I've seen range lump largely at around 630,000. And go as high as 750,000. There's very little support beyond 750,000. With most of those deaths being among northern soldiers.

The South started the war by attacking US troops. And remember your made up horseshit about 'federal property' v 'federal territory' is constitutionally meaningless. A State lacks the authority to strip the Federal government of any constitutionally delegated power. And jurisdiction over every State is one such power as the Supremacy Clause makes clear. As the United States includes every State.

Thus, its constitionally impossible for the South Carolina to unilaterally strip the Federal Government of jurisdiction over the territory within South Carolina. And the Feds retained jurisdiction over Ft. Sumpter. Given the agreements with South Carolina, the territory of Ft. Sumpter as a Federal Enclave. The Enclave Clause gave the federal government exclusive jurisdiction over that territory.

It wasn't until 1881 that these laws were changed to grant the States some jurisdiction over federal enclaves. With almost all such enclaves having concurrent jurisdiction with State governments today. During the civil war, federal enclaves were areas of exclusive federal jurisdiction.

And the State has no authority to strip the federal government of jurisdiction of federal enclaves, anymore than the State had the authority to strip the federal government of jurisdiction over the territory within a State. With such jurisdiction being a constitutionally delegated power of the Federal government. First, through the Supremacy Clause, establishing concurrent jurisdiction over all territory within a State. And second, through the Enclave Clause, granting the Federal government exclusive jurisdiction of Federal Enclaves. Which Ft. Sumpter was.

And a State can't strip the federal government of a power delegated to the federal government by the constitution. Let alone two such powers.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Secessionists dictated that strong measures were necessary. Any bad results can be laid at their feet.

Lincoln cultists dictated that strong measures were necessary. Any bad results can be laid at their feet.