Is healthcare a right? why or why not?

[mattskramer]

But you support it when you think its "the right thing to do".
How is doing something wrong ever the right thing to do?

If I thought that slavery were right, then by definition I would support it – I would think it were right. It is a circular statement. It is its own definition.

It is not right to do something that is wrong. But sometimes in one situation if you were to do something, it might be rigit - It might be the right thing to do. In other situations, if you were to do the same thing, it might be the wrong thing to do. Is it always right to tell the truth? If you think that your wife’s $50 hair cut looks bad and she wants your honest opinion, would you tell her the cold hard truth? If Nazi Germans are looking for your neighbor (a Jewish sympathizer) would you tell the searchers where your neighbor is?

Is it always wrong to steal. What if your good wife were dying from a painful disease that a drug would cure. The greedy pharmacist would not sell the cure. Would you steal it or see your wife suffer and die a painful death? You might steal it and face jail time, but would stealing still be wrong?

Sometimes specific actions are right and sometimes the same actions are wrong given the circumstances. With respect to slavery, I cannot think of an instance in which it would be justified.

 

[mattskramer]

Do you accept this argument for any/all actions that the government should take? Like, say, outlawing abortion -- because its the right thing to do?

Yes. In fact, I think that there should be laws to make it much more difficult for women to get abortions. When the government writes laws, it is legislating morality. It is saying that it thinks that something is morally okay or morally wrong.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Sometimes specific actions are right and sometimes the same actions are wrong given the circumstances. With respect to slavery, I cannot think of an instance in which it would be justified.

You certainly do -- you believe that I should be responsible fo rpaying for your health care.

 

[mattskramer]

You're not addressing my post.

If the majority of the people say you should be a slave, then you're OK with it?
If "the vote should decide" is your position, then what argument do you have against such a thing?

I think that I see your point. You gave an interesting scenario. I doubt that it would ever happen. As I said, the majority can be wrong. Tey sometimes are wrong in court cases. Does that mean that the convict should flee? No. I suppose that in this representative society, I’d be obligated to be a slave. Thankfully, we, for the most part, oppose such notions as slavery.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I suppose that in this representative society, I’d be obligated to be a slave. Thankfully, we, for the most part, oppose such notions as slavery.

Except when slavery, manifesting itself as forcing people to provide the means for others to exercise their right --- in this case, being forced to provide health care to others --- is the "right thing to do".

 

[mattskramer]

You certainly do -- you believe that I should be responsible fo rpaying for your health care.

I think that it is a stretch to equate requiring only those who can afford to do so, to give a tiny bit of their money to those who are facing hard times with slavery. To a degree, I suppose that it is slavery for the common good.

 

[mattskramer]

Except when slavery, manifesting itself as forcing people to provide the means for others to exercise their right --- in this case, being forced to provide health care to others --- is the "right thing to do".

Okay. Okay. Sheesh. So I support economic slavery to a very infintecimal degree for those people who can afford to give a tiny bit. I admit it.

 

[mattskramer]

I think that it is a stretch to equate requiring only those who can afford to do so, to give a tiny bit of their money to those who are facing hard times with slavery. To a degree, I suppose that it is slavery for the common good.

What about you and animal cruelty. Should I be enslaved to take caution with respect to animals. Should I take the time and effort to not abuse or neglect my pets. Shouldn’t I be free to abandon them. Should I be enslaved and forced to pay taxes to support the ASPCA. What about national defence? Imagine that I oppose the Iraq war. Should I be required to pay taxes for it? The American soldiers chose to join. Shouldn’t they be required to buy their own guns? Don’t you see that practically all of this is relative. I imagine that if I think long and carefully enough, I could come up with more scenarios in which you would condone forcing me to support stuff with my taxes.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Okay. Okay. Sheesh. So I support economic slavery to a very infintecimal degree for those people who can afford to give a tiny bit. I admit it.

You support slavery . Thanks for admitting it.

 

[mattskramer]

You support slavery . Thanks for admitting it.

Let us end national defence. If you are concerned with protecting america, buy your own guns and look for alleged terrorists. Build your own walls to protect yourself. Why should I be required to support the US military? In addition, let us end state and local police forces. Let ech person be responsible for his own protection, buy his own protection and security service. I think that I can protect myself from criminals. Are you with me on this?

There are so many things that I should not have to pay taxes for to help other people. Every individual should be fully responsible for himself, his property, his land, and his part of America.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Let us end national defence.

Have you read my sig?

Government exists to protect your rights, not to provide you the means to exercise them.

-National defense protects the rights of the people;
-National defense does not force anyone to provide the means for others to exercise their rights.

So... how does natioal defense have any relevance to the discussion?

In addition, let us end state and local police forces.

-Police protect the rights of the people;
-Having a police force does not force anyone to provide the means for others to exercise their rights.

So... how are the police relevant to the discussion?

 

[mattskramer]

Have you read my sig?

Government exists to protect your rights, not to provide you the means to exercise them.

-National defense protects the rights of the people;
-National defense does not force anyone to provide the means for others to exercise their rights.

So... how does natioal defense have any relevance to the discussion?

By helping protect me from diseases, tax supported health care provides me the means to exercise my rights. By helping protect me from terrorists, tax supported military provides me the means to exercise my rights. One helps protect me from guns. The other one helps protect me from germs. In each case, people are being financially enslaved to pay for the means for people to exercise their rights.

-Police protect the rights of the people;
-Having a police force does not force anyone to provide the means for others to exercise their rights.

Shouldn’t I be required to protect myself. Why should I pay taxes to help someone else be protected by the police? By paying taxes to support police, I am providing the means for others to exercise their rights.

 

[mattskramer]

By helping protect me from diseases, tax supported health care provides me the means to exercise my rights. By helping protect me from terrorists, tax supported military provides me the means to exercise my rights. One helps protect me from guns. The other one helps protect me from germs. In each case, people are being financially enslaved to pay for the means for people to exercise their rights.




Shouldn’t I be required to protect myself. Why should I pay taxes to help someone else be protected by the police? By paying taxes to support police, I am providing the means for others to exercise their rights.

How about the ASPCA. Should I be requied to support it?

 

[M14 Shooter]

By helping protect me from terrorists, tax supported military provides me the means to exercise my rights

What right does the military provide you the means to exercise?

By paying taxes to support police, I am providing the means for others to exercise their rights.

What right do the police provide you the means to exercise?

 

[mattskramer]

What right does the military provide you the means to exercise?


What right do the police provide you the means to exercise?

Being poor, it provides me the right to live and use money for other things besides self-protection while othr people pay the bill for my protection.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Being poor, it provides me the right to live and use money for other things besides self-protection while othr people pay the bill for my protection.

So, neither of them give you property or food, or provide you with the means to buy food, etc, they, instead, protect your right to your property and your right to use it to buy food, etc

That is, they protect your rights, not provide you the means to exercise them.

 

[AllieBaba]

That's right. Get a job with the state...the best of both worlds.

Healthcare is not a right. It's a privilege, and available to everyone for a price. It is not the job of the government to feed us, clothe us, diaper us and medicate us. It's the job of the government to protect us so we can go after those things ourselves.

 

[mattskramer]

So, neither of them give you property or food, or provide you with the means to buy food, etc, they, instead, protect your right to your property and your right to use it to buy food, etc

That is, they protect your rights, not provide you the means to exercise them.

The same applies to health care then. It does not give you property or food, or provide you with the means to buy food, etc. It, instead, protects your right to your property and your right to use it to buy food, etc. If you die from a gunshot or a curable disease, you are still dead. The same reasoning applies.

 

[mattskramer]

That's right. Get a job with the state...the best of both worlds.

Healthcare is not a right. It's a privilege, and available to everyone for a price. It is not the job of the government to feed us, clothe us, diaper us and medicate us. It's the job of the government to protect us so we can go after those things ourselves.

It is government’s job to protect us and treat us for diseases so that we can go after those things ourselves?

 

[M14 Shooter]

The same applies to health care then. It does not give you property or food, or provide you with the means to buy food, etc.

It GIVES you goods (medicine) and services (doctors care).
It PROVIDES you with the means to attain these things - with the means to exercise your rights.

Neither the police nor the military PROVIDE you with a means to exercise your rights -- they PROTECT you from those that would interfere with you doing so.

Really - if you dont understand the disticntion here, there's no point in carrying on the discussion.