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it isn't valid in the forum of science. And if you intend on administering therapy, you better have some damn good science.No, anecdotal claims aren't valid proof.
Conversion therapy is quackery, and it has a higher suicide rate than a success rate. I don't care what your church websites say they are the wicked institutions that fabricated this garbage and fraudulently labeled it conversion therapy. There is zero provable success with so fraudulently called "conversion therapy" all you can really say is that you have beaten homosexuals into conforming to heterosexual behaviors or that you convinced bisexuals to forget about being with the same sex.
Prove the therapy isn't complete garbage, prove homosexuality is a condition in need of healing. Prove any of your claims aren't fraudulent, and please do so without using fraudulent links.
Wouldn't that depend on the forum that the proof is offered in? For example, eyewitness testimony, AKA anecdotal evidence, is completely valid in a court of law.
First, do no harm. This is one of the principles of bioethics. If you haven't proven that there is an effective therapy to convert homosexuals to heterosexual you are bumbling around in thedark and likely causing far more harm than good.
If this so called "conversion therapy" is valid, why is it invalidated by every reputable behavioral sciences group? Why aren't the "therapists" that administer such "therapy" licensed, educated, or even cognizant of the principles of bioethics?
Where are their studies, where is their measurable success?
One study does not a "truth" make. It is a fact only. Interestingly enough in the Abstract (which you kindly provided was this statement of fact...
"Pedigree and twin studies indicate that homosexuality has substantial heritability in both sexes
What exactly does that mean?
Like I already said, you are not interested in truth, you just want to spout your ignorant opinion and ignore the science, homosexuality is not genetic.
If you don't know what heritability means why did you declare yourself to be the board expert on science?
Science says it is.
I like dishing out low down and nasty insults, they sometimes snap people out of their stupors and from time to time - perhaps they'll even take a moment to reflect on their own demented little worlds. Please feel free to hurl some back at me - I dish it out and I take it in [Don't get no funny ideas about "taking it in - Capice ?! ]
If you mean ignorant as in mean and nasty - that was covered above . If you mean ignorant as in uninformed - try refuting one of my assertions - go ahead I dare you - I double dog dare you :>
This is called the Clean Debate Zone for a reason.
More than that however is that words have consequences. Saying homosexuals are mentally ill, demented, damaged goods is the kind of thing that drives very young homosexuals to suicide. Its one thing to disagree or have a strong opinion but won't you please take into consideration that there may well be people reading this who are struggling with their identity.
Don't we have some degree of responsibility to those people? How would we feel if we knew our words caused a young homosexual to kill him or herself?
This is called the Clean Debate Zone for a reason.
More than that however is that words have consequences. Saying homosexuals are mentally ill, demented, damaged goods is the kind of thing that drives very young homosexuals to suicide.
Or it drives them to come to the realization that they need help. Which Gay activists are trying to deny them the right to recieve .
Its one thing to disagree or have a strong opinion but won't you please take into consideration that there may well be people reading this who are struggling with their identity.
Oh trust me , i am fully aware of that , I worked in the Mental Health field for many years - I do not have a doctorate - by my superiors did -I've seen what happens to these people . I knew one young man who blew his brains out - not because he was Gay or oppressed -he was bisexual and infected his wife with the bug. There are many other horror stories - but I never heard of anybody committinmg suicide for the reasons you state .
In a society, advanced as we seem to think we are in our sciences - Reperative Therapy - which is fairly new - has a relatively high success rate - comparable to Drug Rehab - sometimes they relapse - but overall - if you can make the patient/victim aware that they are sick / not healthy you can enable them to seek the first steps toward a normal, healthy life. I've seen the dark side of homosexuality and how it effects people - the dark side is not pretty , but it is pretty much all there really is . Gay is not Okay
Like I already said, you are not interested in truth, you just want to spout your ignorant opinion and ignore the science, homosexuality is not genetic.
If you don't know what heritability means why did you declare yourself to be the board expert on science?
Science says it is.
Except that is the one thing science says it isn't, but feel free to dig up bogus studies from psychologists and social scientists that claim otherwise.
Science says it is.
Except that is the one thing science says it isn't, but feel free to dig up bogus studies from psychologists and social scientists that claim otherwise.
You're wrong but even if you were correct, it doesn't really matter because what other consenting adults do in their own bedrooms simply is none of your business.
Why can't people get that through their heads?
Is YOUR sexuality MY business? Is what you do with other consenting adult(s) MY business?
What's the difference between "them" and "us"?
Stop the Peeping Tom and MYOB.
it isn't valid in the forum of science. And if you intend on administering therapy, you better have some damn good science.Wouldn't that depend on the forum that the proof is offered in? For example, eyewitness testimony, AKA anecdotal evidence, is completely valid in a court of law.
First, do no harm. This is one of the principles of bioethics. If you haven't proven that there is an effective therapy to convert homosexuals to heterosexual you are bumbling around in thedark and likely causing far more harm than good.
If this so called "conversion therapy" is valid, why is it invalidated by every reputable behavioral sciences group? Why aren't the "therapists" that administer such "therapy" licensed, educated, or even cognizant of the principles of bioethics?
Where are their studies, where is their measurable success?
Where did I say it was valid? In fact, I am on record here saying that all psychotherapy is equally worthless, so I see no need to defend something I do not agree with. But feel free to ask stupid questions based on the assumption that I am suddenly in support of the APA despite saying that it is not a scientific organization.
Science says it is.
Except that is the one thing science says it isn't, but feel free to dig up bogus studies from psychologists and social scientists that claim otherwise.
You're wrong but even if you were correct, it doesn't really matter because what other consenting adults do in their own bedrooms simply is none of your business.
Why can't people get that through their heads?
Is YOUR sexuality MY business? Is what you do with other consenting adult(s) MY business?
What's the difference between "them" and "us"?
Stop the Peeping Tom and MYOB.
There have been some studies that have shown that the more sons there are born into a family (and especially absent of daughters), the more likely it is that one or more of those boys will be homosexual. I have no idea if that is genetic, the law of averages, or learned behavior. but then it really doesn't matter to me.That is the one thing anyone who pays attention knows it isn't.
My sister is lesbian. We knew she was lesbian by the time she was 10 years old. She is a man in every respect save her genitalia and has ALWAYS been so. She was the toughest kid in her school and regularly took on the bullies who were tormenting her friends.
She has been in a committed relationship with her wife for over 15 years. There is no doubt that she is lesbian and has always been one.
Likewise my daughters godmother. She too has always been a lesbian. She tried real hard to be "normal". She comes from a devout Catholic family and dated guys up into college. It was never comfortable for her. Never. She then was introduced to a lesbian from another college student and instantaneously she knew that it was the right thing for her.
I am sorry but you and those who think like you are simply wrong. You allow your religious training and upbringing to bias your thinking.
I find the story of your sister to be interesting, because of my youngest daughter. My youngest daughter was very masculine in actions and behavior as she was growing up. She didn't like dolls, she liked toy cars. She didn't like pink, she liked fighting. She didn't like cooking, but she liked cleaning fish when we caught them. She didn't play with other girls, she played with boys. My wife (eventually ex-wife) and I had conversations about her, we were pretty sure she was lesbian and we accepted that. Then one day, during her 12th year of life, it was like somebody flipped a switch. She went from being all tom-boy to all young lady. All of the sudden, dressing nice, and pretty hair, and feminine behavior was important to her. And I really do mean, it was like somebody flipped a switch, she changed overnight. And she has been nothing but a lady ever since. She got married to a fine young man just two weeks ago.
Hehe, 20 years ago, I never expected that the son I never had (my tom-boy daughter) would become the woman she is today and neither did my ex-wife.
Except that is the one thing science says it isn't, but feel free to dig up bogus studies from psychologists and social scientists that claim otherwise.
You're wrong but even if you were correct, it doesn't really matter because what other consenting adults do in their own bedrooms simply is none of your business.
Why can't people get that through their heads?
Is YOUR sexuality MY business? Is what you do with other consenting adult(s) MY business?
What's the difference between "them" and "us"?
Stop the Peeping Tom and MYOB.
Excuse me, genius, but I have repeatedly that any relationship between consenting adults is thier business, and no one else's. In fact, I am pretty sure that you would lose if we went head to head with the things I think the government should keep it's nose out of when it comes to what people do. You should stop demonstrating your bigotry so openly.
I am on record here saying ...
Like I already said, you are not interested in truth, you just want to spout your ignorant opinion and ignore the science, homosexuality is not genetic.
If you don't know what heritability means why did you declare yourself to be the board expert on science?
How wrong you are. I am interested in facts. Truth is the purview of religion not science. To that end the definition of HERITABILITY is
1: the quality or state of being heritable
2: the proportion of observed variation in a particular trait (as height) that can be attributed to inherited genetic factors in contrast to environmental ones.
Heritability - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
YOUR link supporting what I said. Don't you dare lecture me about science when you don't even know what the basics are. This is a simple definition which you seem to not understand.
No it isn't, you said that homosexuality is genetic, That is flat out wrong, if it were all monozygotic twins would either be gay or straight. The studies show that this is not true.
Understanding GeneticsTwin studies of homosexuality have shown that identical twins are about twice as likely to both be gay compared to fraternal twins. This means that being gay is partly genetic and not simply something that a person learns or chooses to be.
There is one important thing to note, though. If the DNA sequence is the only thing determining whether someone is gay or not, we would expect that if one identical twin were gay, then the other would be too 100% of the time.
But this is not what scientists have found the rate is actually closer to 50%. So while we know that genetics is involved, it doesnt tell us the whole story. This is where environment comes in.
Did you notice that I, once again, used a link that disagrees with my position? Feel free to pretend to yourself that you are the one that is being unbiased and objective even though I have proved you wrong twice.
it isn't valid in the forum of science. And if you intend on administering therapy, you better have some damn good science.
First, do no harm. This is one of the principles of bioethics. If you haven't proven that there is an effective therapy to convert homosexuals to heterosexual you are bumbling around in thedark and likely causing far more harm than good.
If this so called "conversion therapy" is valid, why is it invalidated by every reputable behavioral sciences group? Why aren't the "therapists" that administer such "therapy" licensed, educated, or even cognizant of the principles of bioethics?
Where are their studies, where is their measurable success?
Where did I say it was valid? In fact, I am on record here saying that all psychotherapy is equally worthless, so I see no need to defend something I do not agree with. But feel free to ask stupid questions based on the assumption that I am suddenly in support of the APA despite saying that it is not a scientific organization.
You butted into a conversation between Emily and I. If you don't want to discuss it than why reply?
Except that is the one thing science says it isn't, but feel free to dig up bogus studies from psychologists and social scientists that claim otherwise.
You're wrong but even if you were correct, it doesn't really matter because what other consenting adults do in their own bedrooms simply is none of your business.
Why can't people get that through their heads?
Is YOUR sexuality MY business? Is what you do with other consenting adult(s) MY business?
What's the difference between "them" and "us"?
Stop the Peeping Tom and MYOB.
he first think behavioral science is science.
You're wrong but even if you were correct, it doesn't really matter because what other consenting adults do in their own bedrooms simply is none of your business.
Why can't people get that through their heads?
Is YOUR sexuality MY business? Is what you do with other consenting adult(s) MY business?
What's the difference between "them" and "us"?
Stop the Peeping Tom and MYOB.
Excuse me, genius, but I have repeatedly that any relationship between consenting adults is thier business, and no one else's. In fact, I am pretty sure that you would lose if we went head to head with the things I think the government should keep it's nose out of when it comes to what people do. You should stop demonstrating your bigotry so openly.
You're all over the place but you often says things like this as though others should know what you think. Just as you said,Where is that record?I am on record here saying ...
There have been some studies that have shown that the more sons there are born into a family (and especially absent of daughters), the more likely it is that one or more of those boys will be homosexual. I have no idea if that is genetic, the law of averages, or learned behavior. but then it really doesn't matter to me.My sister is lesbian. We knew she was lesbian by the time she was 10 years old. She is a man in every respect save her genitalia and has ALWAYS been so. She was the toughest kid in her school and regularly took on the bullies who were tormenting her friends.
She has been in a committed relationship with her wife for over 15 years. There is no doubt that she is lesbian and has always been one.
Likewise my daughters godmother. She too has always been a lesbian. She tried real hard to be "normal". She comes from a devout Catholic family and dated guys up into college. It was never comfortable for her. Never. She then was introduced to a lesbian from another college student and instantaneously she knew that it was the right thing for her.
I am sorry but you and those who think like you are simply wrong. You allow your religious training and upbringing to bias your thinking.
I find the story of your sister to be interesting, because of my youngest daughter. My youngest daughter was very masculine in actions and behavior as she was growing up. She didn't like dolls, she liked toy cars. She didn't like pink, she liked fighting. She didn't like cooking, but she liked cleaning fish when we caught them. She didn't play with other girls, she played with boys. My wife (eventually ex-wife) and I had conversations about her, we were pretty sure she was lesbian and we accepted that. Then one day, during her 12th year of life, it was like somebody flipped a switch. She went from being all tom-boy to all young lady. All of the sudden, dressing nice, and pretty hair, and feminine behavior was important to her. And I really do mean, it was like somebody flipped a switch, she changed overnight. And she has been nothing but a lady ever since. She got married to a fine young man just two weeks ago.
Hehe, 20 years ago, I never expected that the son I never had (my tom-boy daughter) would become the woman she is today and neither did my ex-wife.
Yeah, it happens like that too. My sister though, never wanted to have anything to do with boys. My dad encouraged her to be "normal" (it took him a long time to accept that she was lesbian and up till the day he died I don't think he ever truly did...he just didn't want to fight about it any more) but she was already normal.....for her.
It doesn't really say anything about me.Where did I say it was valid? In fact, I am on record here saying that all psychotherapy is equally worthless, so I see no need to defend something I do not agree with. But feel free to ask stupid questions based on the assumption that I am suddenly in support of the APA despite saying that it is not a scientific organization.
You butted into a conversation between Emily and I. If you don't want to discuss it than why reply?
I did discuss it, and you accused me of supporting something I don't. I could point out that you took so much exception to me mistaking your position that you repeatedly accused me of a straw man fallacy when I simply misread a post. What does that say about you when you do the exact same thing?
How wrong you are. I am interested in facts. Truth is the purview of religion not science. To that end the definition of HERITABILITY is
1: the quality or state of being heritable
2: the proportion of observed variation in a particular trait (as height) that can be attributed to inherited genetic factors in contrast to environmental ones.
Heritability - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
YOUR link supporting what I said. Don't you dare lecture me about science when you don't even know what the basics are. This is a simple definition which you seem to not understand.
No it isn't, you said that homosexuality is genetic, That is flat out wrong, if it were all monozygotic twins would either be gay or straight. The studies show that this is not true.
Understanding GeneticsTwin studies of homosexuality have shown that identical twins are about twice as likely to both be gay compared to fraternal twins. This means that being gay is partly genetic and not simply something that a person learns or chooses to be.
There is one important thing to note, though. If the DNA sequence is the only thing determining whether someone is gay or not, we would expect that if one identical twin were gay, then the other would be too 100% of the time.
But this is not what scientists have found – the rate is actually closer to 50%. So while we know that genetics is involved, it doesn’t tell us the whole story. This is where environment comes in.
Did you notice that I, once again, used a link that disagrees with my position? Feel free to pretend to yourself that you are the one that is being unbiased and objective even though I have proved you wrong twice.
Gene's are traits that are passed on. In twins (or any family descent) one can get the gay gene while the other doesn't. Just like in heart disease. Two identical twins can be born and one inherits the gene that leads to coronary artery disease while the other doesn't.
Your argument is ridiculous.
Except that is the one thing science says it isn't, but feel free to dig up bogus studies from psychologists and social scientists that claim otherwise.
You're wrong but even if you were correct, it doesn't really matter because what other consenting adults do in their own bedrooms simply is none of your business.
Why can't people get that through their heads?
Is YOUR sexuality MY business? Is what you do with other consenting adult(s) MY business?
What's the difference between "them" and "us"?
Stop the Peeping Tom and MYOB.
he first think behavioral science is science.
You're wrong but even if you were correct, it doesn't really matter because what other consenting adults do in their own bedrooms simply is none of your business.
Why can't people get that through their heads?
Is YOUR sexuality MY business? Is what you do with other consenting adult(s) MY business?
What's the difference between "them" and "us"?
Stop the Peeping Tom and MYOB.
he first think behavioral science is science.
Does that actually make sense to you?
You're wrong but even if you were correct, it doesn't really matter because what other consenting adults do in their own bedrooms simply is none of your business.
Why can't people get that through their heads?
Is YOUR sexuality MY business? Is what you do with other consenting adult(s) MY business?
What's the difference between "them" and "us"?
Stop the Peeping Tom and MYOB.
he first think behavioral science is science.
Try editing that so it is a complete sentence. Your point got lost in the typo.
It doesn't really say anything about me.You butted into a conversation between Emily and I. If you don't want to discuss it than why reply?
I did discuss it, and you accused me of supporting something I don't. I could point out that you took so much exception to me mistaking your position that you repeatedly accused me of a straw man fallacy when I simply misread a post. What does that say about you when you do the exact same thing?
You brought up some unrelated nonsense about court room evidence.
