Is homosexuality a choice, a mental illness or something simply inherent?

[Quantum Windbag]

so than you don't think applied behavioral science is a science.

Don't accuse me of anything because you fail to make coherent points.

I never said that behavioral science is not valid.

When did I say you did?

Seriously? I actually quoted the post where you said I said it, even if you delete it I still have the evidence. You have to do better than that.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I have heard others claim you were being intentionally obtuse but had never seen it till now. I said that homosexuality is genetic. You said it's not and posted a study in support of what you said that actually supported me. Then you bring up the twins issue and once again I post a study that shows how epigenetic factors CAN TURN GENES ON AND OFF AFTER BIRTH and that sails right over your head.

Like I said. You don't understand even the basics so until you learn something you're merely wasting mine and everyone else's time. It's YOU who refuses to learn something new QW. Not me, and not anyone else who has posted here except for the religious nutters.

One more time, if sexual preference were genetic identical twins would always have the same sexual preference. the don't.

In other words, you are still wrong.

And you are being intellectually dishonest which is the worst thing I can call anyone. You have descended to the level of rderp and truthiness.....and that's hard to do.

Really? Scientist are the people that tell me that what I just said is true. I even posted a link to the study that explains it, and you still insist that you are right. Are all of them intellectually dishonest, or are you just a close minded bigot?

 

[westwall]

One more time, if sexual preference were genetic identical twins would always have the same sexual preference. the don't.

In other words, you are still wrong.

And you are being intellectually dishonest which is the worst thing I can call anyone. You have descended to the level of rderp and truthiness.....and that's hard to do.

Really? Scientist are the people that tell me that what I just said is true. I even posted a link to the study that explains it, and you still insist that you are right. Are all of them intellectually dishonest, or are you just a close minded bigot?

Here is what the study says...

However, despite numerous studies over the last decade searching for polymorphisms associated with homosexuality, no convincing molecular genetic evidence has been found despite the fact that pedigree and twin studies clearly show that homosexuality is familial (reviewed in Ngun et al. 2011). Homosexuality has also been hypothesized to be caused by nongenetic factors such as maternal antibodies against male-specific antigens (reviewed in Bogaert and Skorska 2011). This hypothesis may indeed explain some cases of homosexuality, but cannot account for most cases in men and none in women (Cantor et al. 2002). The poor correspondence between current models and data calls for a new conceptual framework to understand the evolution of homosexuality.


What that states is we have FAMILIAL evidence that shows it is genetic but our MODELS can't reproduce that.

You have fallen for the same silliness that global warming nutters have where they pay more attention to their models than the FACTS which inconveniently screw up their models.

Here's a clue...."familial" equals genetic...

"Substantial Heritability" equals genetic....

"Models" equal fiction....

 

[GISMYS]

CHOICE NOT GENES!!!!Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality... NW.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And you are being intellectually dishonest which is the worst thing I can call anyone. You have descended to the level of rderp and truthiness.....and that's hard to do.

Really? Scientist are the people that tell me that what I just said is true. I even posted a link to the study that explains it, and you still insist that you are right. Are all of them intellectually dishonest, or are you just a close minded bigot?

Here is what the study says...

However, despite numerous studies over the last decade searching for polymorphisms associated with homosexuality, no convincing molecular genetic evidence has been found despite the fact that pedigree and twin studies clearly show that homosexuality is familial (reviewed in Ngun et al. 2011). Homosexuality has also been hypothesized to be caused by nongenetic factors such as maternal antibodies against male-specific antigens (reviewed in Bogaert and Skorska 2011). This hypothesis may indeed explain some cases of homosexuality, but cannot account for most cases in men and none in women (Cantor et al. 2002). The poor correspondence between current models and data calls for a new conceptual framework to understand the evolution of homosexuality.


What that states is we have FAMILIAL evidence that shows it is genetic but our MODELS can't reproduce that.

You have fallen for the same silliness that global warming nutters have where they pay more attention to their models than the FACTS which inconveniently screw up their models.

Here's a clue...."familial" equals genetic...

"Substantial Heritability" equals genetic....

"Models" equal fiction....

I get it now, you don't understand the language that scientists use, let me translate that for you. The part you highlighted in blue clearly states that there is no evidence that sexual preference is caused by genes. The other part says that there is a correlation among families that indicates that it is familial. You do understand that correlation does not equal causation, don't you?

As for heritability, it has nothing to do with individuals. I will use Wikipedia so you don't get confused when I make my point.

The heritability of a trait is the square of the coefficient of G in a linear approximation to the surface GxE to trait. Factors including genetics, environment and random chance can all contribute to the variation between individuals in their observable characteristics (in their "phenotypes"). Heritability thus analyzes the relative contributions of differences in genetic and non-genetic factors to the total phenotypic variance in a population. For instance, some humans in a population are taller than others; heritability attempts to identify how much genetics play a role in part of the population being extra tall.

Heritability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, heritability is not about individuals, it is about the entire population.

Anything else you don't understand?

 

[emilynghiem]

No, anecdotal claims aren't valid proof.

Conversion therapy is quackery, and it has a higher suicide rate than a success rate. I don't care what your church websites say they are the wicked institutions that fabricated this garbage and fraudulently labeled it conversion therapy. There is zero provable success with so fraudulently called "conversion therapy" all you can really say is that you have beaten homosexuals into conforming to heterosexual behaviors or that you convinced bisexuals to forget about being with the same sex.

Prove the therapy isn't complete garbage, prove homosexuality is a condition in need of healing. Prove any of your claims aren't fraudulent, and please do so without using fraudulent links.

Hi Inevitable
No -- conversion therapy that is fraudulent abusive and coercive malpractice is
NOT the same and has NOTHING to do with real spiritual healing that is the opposite.
We are clearly talking about two different things.

Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt are long experienced, recognized teachers, trainers in spiritual healing which is harmless and works by free participation like other therapy.
It works by FORGIVENESS so nothing can be coerced or faked: forgiveness only works when it is only the person's free and true choice and not any other reason or it fails.
(The 5 stages of grief and recovery and the 12 steps to overcoming addiction are similar, working by forgiving each stage so people are free from the past, heal and move forward. Same process.)

She is a licensed pscyhotherapist and has saved lives from suicide, such as a rape patient
she mentioned and added to the latest edition of the book on "HEALING" which has been a standard textbook in seminaries. The 1999 editions or later also mention a medical study on rheumatoid arthritis where effects of spiritual healing were documented by professional team of doctors.

You can check out the resources online, look into the MacNutt's nonprofit, outreach and ministry and find ZERO cases of complaints by anyone, no arguments of fraud or abuse, because they only practice and teach *natural healing* that works alongside science and medicine.

Dr. Phillip Goldfedder is another healing practitioner, who used to work as a professional neurosurgeon until he found the process of spiritual healing to be more effective in helping more people. He did not believe this was science, until he saw proof for himself.

Dr. Scott Peck (deceased) also did not believe that "demon voices" were real and could be cured by applying the same "deliverance/exorcism" methods of spiritual healing that priests used. So he tried this himself, as a psychiatrist giving therapy to two patients, and found that the process worked. He wrote up his observations in two books "People of the Lie" and "Glimpses of the Devil"

Unlike Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt, you will find complaints online about Peck having sexual affairs or other questionable conduct that hurt his credibility.

However, you will not find any such negative reports or complaints about the
Christian Healing Ministry by Dr. MacNutt and his team of nonprofit volunteers.
(Their worst conflict was separating from the Catholic church, I am guessing over
their policy that only ordained and authorized priests can do the healing instead
of anybody with this calling, but that was done civilly so there is no "backlash" there.)

[MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION]
I have a friend in Houston Olivia Reiner who has a long term relationship with MD Anderson Cancer Center and helping with volunteer outreach to anyone who asks for healing prayer.
She gave me permission to post her number online for anyone to call.
it is posted at http://www.spiritual-healing.us.com and at the top of the page at http://www.houstonprogressive.org = 713 829 0899

She has over 35 years of testimony of spiritual healing that helped people,
without causing harm, and has healed sickness ranging from cancer, diabetes, multiple
personalities involving demon voices, and drug addictions and sexual abuse.

We are working to get these medical testimonies documented to post online.
Because she volunteers for free, we do not have fancy resources like people who run a church which she refused long ago because of the problems with money and fraud.

Like Dr. MacNutt, they keep their spiritual healing outreach free
so there is NO CONFUSION with false faith healing for money and fraud.

Elizabeth Collins is another volunteer with Olivia's nonprofit that has been pushing for medical research and formal studies to document this.

Many people already have their cases documented medically.

If you want formal medical proof, so do I.

If people only want to debunk it, they won't spend the money on research because they already believe it is false.

Peck seems to be the rare exception, who went through the steps to observe the process himself, PLANNING to debunk it as "mental delusion and false" but found the opposite.

Most people find it easier to debunk the source as "not credible," and won't look further.

So if that is the path you take, that is the most common.

It is too much work to try to do all the research it would take to change your own mind
if you already think you are right, and don't think you need to see any proof.

Dr. Goldfedder also researched it himself to see proof that it was real.
And it changed his mind and his entire practice. He gave up his more profitable
neurosurgery practice because spiritual healing addressed the root cause
instead of the symptoms.

I am happy to keep you updated
as I push for medical research to be replicated so this knowledge and process
can be made accessible to the public.

If you want to wait until other people prove it to believe it, that's fine.
Most people are like that.

I found out it was true before it became public knowledge.
So out of social responsibility and ethics to prevent people from suffering and dying,
of course I am going to promote a free solution that would save lives.

So I am pushing for medical proof, so that this is no longer an issue.

Spiritual healing is real, natural and effective,
works with science and medicine
does not impose any risk or harm (such as denying or neglecting
medical care or denying the fact that some things may not change or heal
and cannot be forced and other forms of false practice or fraud that causes harm)

If you don't believe this without proof, I don't blame you.
Dr. Peck didn't either until he saw enough proof to write a book
urging the medical and psychiatric profession to follow up with
formal scientific study, research and development of this natural therapy.

Dr. Goldfedder saw proof how it worked, tried it himself,
and gave up his surgical practice to focus on this therapy.

All I ask or suggest is that you keep an open mind.

To me it is dangerous to assume that all other reports to the contrary are false.

There is a method behind spiritual healing that can be explained and demonstated scientifically. Each person's process is unique to them, but the patterns are the same.

So that part can be proven to be effective,
by repeat application on different kinds of conditions
and show the statistical correlation between
* forgiveness and healing
* unforgiveness and not healing
* changing from unforgiveness to forgiveness
to show the change from not healing to healing

Sorry for the long response. This is a critical field and reform in medicine and mental health treatment, so I tend to go on and on about because I find it so important
to recognize it.

I do not think we can sustain society if we do not start practicing this therapy
on a regular basis to cure all cases that are possible (not all can be cured or changed).

The application to cancer, to mental illness, and especially to criminal illness
will effect a huge impact on our health systems, and govt and prison systems.

So this is a big deal.
It is like Nobel Prize material to prove through science and medicine
that spiritual healing is natural and can cure a wide variety of diseases.
And in the process bridge a huge gap between science and religion, reason and faith.

 

[Howey]

"Spiritual healing" is just another way to say "brainwashing", which coincidentally is another way to say "conversion therapy".

 

[Howey]

My So-Called Ex-Gay Life

 

[emilynghiem]

No, anecdotal claims aren't valid proof.

Conversion therapy is quackery, and it has a higher suicide rate than a success rate. I don't care what your church websites say they are the wicked institutions that fabricated this garbage and fraudulently labeled it conversion therapy. There is zero provable success with so fraudulently called "conversion therapy" all you can really say is that you have beaten homosexuals into conforming to heterosexual behaviors or that you convinced bisexuals to forget about being with the same sex.

Prove the therapy isn't complete garbage, prove homosexuality is a condition in need of healing. Prove any of your claims aren't fraudulent, and please do so without using fraudulent links.

P.S. [MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION]
1. No, I did NOT say that homosexuality needed healing?
I said that it depends on the person.

If their sexual behavior (whether heterosexual OR homosexual) was unnaturally
caused by abuse, then if you heal the abuse, then their behavior CAN also healed.
That is not the same thing. Clearly it cannot be healed if it is natural for them!!!

2. Why is it okay to use anecdotes to show that people are "naturally
homosexual" I trust they are if they say that it is natural for them, based on their
anecdotes. Why isn't this okay for people who say that it wasn't their natural orientation, and that they changed it?

I use the same standard for both -- if people say it is natural or unnatural for them,
I believe that person.

3. Where did YOU prove that the links or references were fraudulent quacks?

[MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION] can you find ANY fraudulent reports on
* Dr. Francis MacNutt
* HEALING 1999 edition mentions medical studies on Rheumatoid Arthritis
* Christian Healing Ministries Home - Christian Healing Ministries

4. I am okay with setting up medical proof that spiritual healing is effective and safe
and NOT the same thing as any fraudulent "forced conversion" or "false faith healing"

this CAN be proven MEDICALLY

You can PROVE that false methods do NOT involve "forgiveness"
but maybe fear and guilt based conditions and expectations

You can PROVE through statistics that people who report "forgiveness"
are successful in their recovery therapy (from any number of conditions)
while people who don't go through forgiveness can get stuck and not finish the process

The key to natural healing
is "forgiveness" and there are many versions of this kind of therapy
and many successful stories out there -- all based on the same or similar process.

 

[emilynghiem]

"Spiritual healing" is just another way to say "brainwashing", which coincidentally is another way to say "conversion therapy".

No, brainwashing or "placebo's" never cured anyone of demonic voices.
There are more applications of spiritual healing to curing cancer (which is a more common condition that people seek help for) and to mental conditions like schizophrenia.

I don't know anyone who can "brainwash" anyone
out of hearing schizophrenic voices. People have been cured of this through
spiritual therapy and prayer to get into their subconscious levels.

Why would you want to discourage exploration of a field
of science that could save more people's lives and minds and health?

Are you THAT selfish that you would rather FIGHT the risk of being wrong in changing your mind, rather than CONSIDER methods that have SAVED LIVES and could save many more?

 

[emilynghiem]

My So-Called Ex-Gay Life

1. Note: Spiritual healing doesn't "blame" anyone for any conditions.
It is not based on guilt, fear, judgment, trying to force anyone or anyting to change or
IT DOES NOT WORK.

What spiritual healing does is identify the unforgiven or unresolved conflicts, issues or memories in someone's past, and introduces prayer to help FORGIVE and LET GO of these blockages that PREVENT NATURAL HEALING.

so it is about unblocking any obstructions, by guilt fear rage unforgiveness etc.

And letting the natural healing process HAPPEN
and NOT DICTATE what happens, what changes or not,
but just to receive forgiveness and healing and let NATURE take its course.

2. Sure, [MENTION=42946]Howey[/MENTION] you can point to failed alcoholic cases and show the high relapse rate and say the process fails. Many people defy debunk and denounce AA as false because it failed for them.

I have a friend who it didn't work for UNTIL he added Buddhist meditation to identify sources of guilt, and then it worked and he's been sober since then.

I met a woman who did past life regression to address a phobia,
and the therapist applied Christian healing prayer IN ADDITION to the regression therapy
and it worked. The phobia went away because the woman FORGAVE and LET GO.

So you can either look at the cases that SUCCEED
and see what all they had to FORGIVE in order to be successful

or you can focus on the cases this didn't work for

3. in cases of changing one's orientation, gender or even religion
you CANNOT convert to something that isn't natural or right for you
after going through healing. Once you remove all the guilt fear and unforgiveness,
people restore their NATURAL state that has NO fear-based conditions.
that is what is being healed the false conditions

so they return to their natural state of mind and body
whatever that is - true healing is UNCONDITIONAL
(NOT this false forced fraudulent conversion that is the opposite of healing)

So if you are not going to change orientation, this will not change it.
You can still heal of anything that prevented you from being at peace,
but you will restore your original nature whatever that is right for you.

Sorry I think we are talking about two totally different things.
My apologies for the confusion, it is as different as opposite and day.

Free healing with unconditional acceptance and loving forgiveness
is totally the opposite of
"forced abuse out of guilt judgment and fraud"

These have nothing to do with each other!

 

[Marie888]

I believe 100% that it is a choice, because one can "live without it" or rather that it is not a bare necessity at all, (food, shelter, etc) therefore it is a choice coming from the mind. I believe a person may "struggle" with it as I also believe it is a form a lust and lust is definitely a choice also which can also become a temptation, just as there are many "lust/fleshly" choices including fornication. (sex before holy matrimony)

Please know that my reply is not to put down or attack any homosexuals personally, as the Good Lord knows I've struggled and struggle with my own things I've done wrong or sinned. Daily I ask Him for forgiveness even in my mind, as we all fall short.

But overall, I believe it's a choice and goes directly along with these verses in The Bible and that it is a sin against God/how He created us to be and He wants to restore us from things like this:

Romans 1
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

When one reads all these verses very carefully, even asking God for help to read them if needed, it becomes clear that it's a "lust" which is a "choice".



.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi Marie: Some people seem to understand and let go better
if we make a distinction between "natural and unnatural" cases of homosexuality.
See Matthew 19:12 that some eunuchs are born and some are made by man;
so it is possible also in these cases some are by birth and some by conditions.
I think it is more spiritual than genetic, which research shows does not apply.

I do have one friend who changed after he decided it WAS a choice and not born.

So this approach DOES help those people like him, who accepted medical research that there was nothing in genetics causing this.
(he also accepted the idea that there could be different types of cases, some can and cannot change, and not all the same way)
With others, when they have a CHOICE to change, they are free to decide and this helps them to think more clearly.

With too many people, to impose the judgment they are "making a wrong choice" somewhere, does NOT help but causes worse problems.

I find it universal to focus on "spiritual healing" in general, so no matter what needs to be forgiven, no matter what can or cannot change, this promotes forgiveness not fear.

I believe 100% that it is a choice, because one can "live without it" or rather that it is not a bare necessity at all, (food, shelter, etc) therefore it is a choice coming from the mind. I believe a person may "struggle" with it as I also believe it is a form a lust and lust is definitely a choice also which can also become a temptation, just as there are many "lust/fleshly" choices including fornication. (sex before holy matrimony)

Please know that my reply is not to put down or attack any homosexuals personally, as the Good Lord knows I've struggled and struggle with my own things I've done wrong or sinned. Daily I ask Him for forgiveness even in my mind, as we all fall short.

But overall, I believe it's a choice and goes directly along with these verses in The Bible and that it is a sin against God/how He created us to be and He wants to restore us from things like this:

Romans 1
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

When one reads all these verses very carefully, even asking God for help to read them if needed, it becomes clear that it's a "lust" which is a "choice".

.

I have no problem with that angle as long as the "lust as a choice" applies to ALL people in ALL situations and forms of Lusting and is not discriminating and targeting only one group.

I still would make a distinction between unnatural lust and natural desire and connection.
And leave it to God which is which, as nobody can be right % in our judgments, especially concerning other people who don't know or understand perfectly as God knows.

 

[kaz]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

 

[emilynghiem]

REVISED sorry

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

[MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] What about people who were raped and
their sexual behavior (either homosexual or heterosexual) was caused by rape or abuse:

Were they BORN to be raped and abused?

I believe in spiritual karma, but we do not choose some of this karma that affects
what happens in life. We learn to deal with the karma.
Some believe our karma is decided before we are born.
Do you believe in that level?
I know someone who believes that rape victims had that in their karma.
Do you?

 

[fanger]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

To have sex is a choice

 

[kaz]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

[MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] did people who were raped and
their sexual behavior (either homosexual or heterosexual) was caused by rape or abuse,
CHOOSE to be raped?

Were they BORN to be raped and abused?

I believe in spiritual karma, but we do not choose some of this karma that affects
what happens in life. We learn to deal with the karma.
Some believe our karma is decided before we are born.
Do you believe in that level?
I know someone who believes that rape victims had that in their karma.
Do you?

I'm waiving my hand over my head. I have no idea what you are talking about. I said that gay people don't chose to be gay just like I didn't chose to be straight. I just am. What does what I said have to do with rape? You completely lost me, please clarify what you are talking about related to what I said.

 

[kaz]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

To have sex is a choice

and...

 

[Howey]

My So-Called Ex-Gay Life

1. Note: Spiritual healing doesn't "blame" anyone for any conditions.
It is not based on guilt, fear, judgment, trying to force anyone or anyting to change or
IT DOES NOT WORK.

What spiritual healing does is identify the unforgiven or unresolved conflicts, issues or memories in someone's past, and introduces prayer to help FORGIVE and LET GO of these blockages that PREVENT NATURAL HEALING.

so it is about unblocking any obstructions, by guilt fear rage unforgiveness etc.

And letting the natural healing process HAPPEN
and NOT DICTATE what happens, what changes or not,
but just to receive forgiveness and healing and let NATURE take its course.

2. Sure, [MENTION=42946]Howey[/MENTION] you can point to failed alcoholic cases and show the high relapse rate and say the process fails. Many people defy debunk and denounce AA as false because it failed for them.

I have a friend who it didn't work for UNTIL he added Buddhist meditation to identify sources of guilt, and then it worked and he's been sober since then.

I met a woman who did past life regression to address a phobia,
and the therapist applied Christian healing prayer IN ADDITION to the regression therapy
and it worked. The phobia went away because the woman FORGAVE and LET GO.

So you can either look at the cases that SUCCEED
and see what all they had to FORGIVE in order to be successful

or you can focus on the cases this didn't work for

3. in cases of changing one's orientation, gender or even religion
you CANNOT convert to something that isn't natural or right for you
after going through healing. Once you remove all the guilt fear and unforgiveness,
people restore their NATURAL state that has NO fear-based conditions.
that is what is being healed the false conditions

so they return to their natural state of mind and body
whatever that is - true healing is UNCONDITIONAL
(NOT this false forced fraudulent conversion that is the opposite of healing)

So if you are not going to change orientation, this will not change it.
You can still heal of anything that prevented you from being at peace,
but you will restore your original nature whatever that is right for you.

Sorry I think we are talking about two totally different things.
My apologies for the confusion, it is as different as opposite and day.

Free healing with unconditional acceptance and loving forgiveness
is totally the opposite of
"forced abuse out of guilt judgment and fraud"

These have nothing to do with each other!

ALL THOSE THAT HAVE CHOSE TO LIVE IN SIN CAN STILL CONFESS AND REPENT OF SIN,BELIEVE IN JESUS AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR AND HE WILL FORGIVE AND ""WASH YOU AND MAKE YOU CLEAN""!!! Your choice!

Reported.

 

[Rambunctious]

For most it is a choice...but for some it's not. It's ridiculous to think that every homosexual act is because of genetics.