Is homosexuality a choice, a mental illness or something simply inherent?

[Quantum Windbag]

Then why does it run in families?

That is a good question, and where honest people admit that there really isn't an answer.

What would Occams Razor have to say about it?

Occam's razor doesn't apply because it is only a problem in the mind of fanatics.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

BOTTOMLINE=TO LIVE IN HOMOSEXUALITY IS CHOICE NOT GENES!!!!Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality... NW.

Perfectly explainable by epigenetics which are triggers that turn genes either on or off post birth. Or, put another way, why would anyone CHOOSE a lifestyle that gets them killed in most places of the world?

Are you claiming that a person's religion isn't actually a choice? Or did you forget that some people actually choose a religion that could get them killed in some parts of the world?

 

[BobPlumb]

Perhaps Gillete would be a better razor than Occams!

 

[westwall]

That is a good question, and where honest people admit that there really isn't an answer.

What would Occams Razor have to say about it?

Occam's razor doesn't apply because it is only a problem in the mind of fanatics.

Occam applies to ALL scientific questions. Religious nutters ignore science and the scientific method. I don't.

 

[westwall]

BOTTOMLINE=TO LIVE IN HOMOSEXUALITY IS CHOICE NOT GENES!!!!Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality... NW.

Perfectly explainable by epigenetics which are triggers that turn genes either on or off post birth. Or, put another way, why would anyone CHOOSE a lifestyle that gets them killed in most places of the world?

Are you claiming that a person's religion isn't actually a choice? Or did you forget that some people actually choose a religion that could get them killed in some parts of the world?

No, I'm not. And that is a good point, however the areas where that is true is fairly small and they can leave. Gays are prey no matter where in the world they live, even here in the good 'ole USA.

 

[GISMYS]

What would Occams Razor have to say about it?

Occam's razor doesn't apply because it is only a problem in the mind of fanatics.

Occam applies to ALL scientific questions. Religious nutters ignore science and the scientific method. I don't.

ROFLMAO!!! SCIENCE THEORY CHANGES ALMOST DAY TO DAY! BIG BANG NOW DEBUNKED!!! LIFE BEGAN IN PONDSCUM BUT TODAY THE THEORY IS LIFE CAME TO EARTH ON SPACE ROCKS!!LOL!! WITHOUT EVEN A IDEA AS TO WHERE AND HOW THE LIFE ON SPACE ROCKS BEGAN!! ROFLMAO!! Come on!!!

 

[emilynghiem]

If heard of cases of people that have dissociated personality syndrome (multiple personalities) in which some of the personilities are gay and some are not. Just thought I'd throw that bone into the discussion.

Interviewing a Person with Multiple Personalities

Wouldnt that be as a result of learned behavior? From what I understand MPD is a result of coping with stress. You could inherently be hetero but invent a homo personality.

I think we can learn more about the conditions
by studying cases of curing them.

The friend of mine who does the same spiritual healing therapy as published in books I've recommended, HAS cured a woman of multiple personalities that in HER case were demonic voices that had invaded her space spiritually like parasites.

So when the deliverance/exorcism removed the demonic infestations,
then the woman no longer had those multiple personalities or voices.

With one book I read about a real case, some of the personalities were split off from each other. The woman in that case had to heal and progress to get them to be the same ages
where she had become stunted and stayed back in time.
After the personalities were the same level, they could be merged.
So I think that is some kind of dissociation of the same personality
and not separate ones manifesting through a person that isn't coming from them.

 

[emilynghiem]

ROFLMAO!!! SCIENCE THEORY CHANGES ALMOST DAY TO DAY! BIG BANG NOW DEBUNKED!!! LIFE BEGAN IN PONDSCUM BUT TODAY THE THEORY IS LIFE CAME TO EARTH ON SPACE ROCKS!!LOL!! WITHOUT EVEN A IDEA AS TO WHERE AND HOW THE LIFE ON SPACE ROCKS BEGAN!! ROFLMAO!! Come on!!!

[MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION] What about science being used to prove how spiritual healing works,
specifically prayers in Christ Jesus used to get rid of demonic obsessions and voices?

Wouldn't that be something to celebrate
when science is used to explain how a spiritual process works, as natural energy.

Of all things taught in religious practices, the one area I believe
can be proven and with the maximum impact on humanity and society is
Spiritual Healing and the effects of
Forgiveness on the mind and body and human/social relations and health.

The patterns and process can be shown to repeat by statistics.
And the results in people can be quantified and measured/recorded:
* unforgiveness correlating with failure to reconcile conflicts and to heal of conditions and relations
* forgiveness correlating with success in reconciling conflicts and healing mental/physical conditions
* CHANGES and corrections, from unforgiveness to forgiveness, correlating with CHANGES in results and relationships

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What would Occams Razor have to say about it?

Occam's razor doesn't apply because it is only a problem in the mind of fanatics.

Occam applies to ALL scientific questions. Religious nutters ignore science and the scientific method. I don't.

Sigh.

Occam's Razor is simply a method of reaching a conclusion when there isn't any actual evidence to support multiple hypotheses. Simply stated, the position with the fewest assumptions is the one most likely to be right. Funny thing, sometimes the one with the most assumptions turns out to be right when you find actual evidence, which is where science comes in.

But, please keep declaring your superiority over me based on your delusional belief that I don't understand science, even though I actually proved that you were wrong about heritability, it helps me appreciate life.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Perfectly explainable by epigenetics which are triggers that turn genes either on or off post birth. Or, put another way, why would anyone CHOOSE a lifestyle that gets them killed in most places of the world?

Are you claiming that a person's religion isn't actually a choice? Or did you forget that some people actually choose a religion that could get them killed in some parts of the world?

No, I'm not. And that is a good point, however the areas where that is true is fairly small and they can leave. Gays are prey no matter where in the world they live, even here in the good 'ole USA.

China is small? And people can easily leave? Damn, I need to contact the mapmakers of the world and tell them they draw China too large.

 

[MaryL]

I strongly believe that Homosexuality is a mental illness. It may even be genetic, and inherent. But what disturbs me is the new mindset and politics of mass conformity that has glommed on to this particular group of humanity as if they are a newly discovered, never heard of before species of humans that is having their civil rights endangered by evil heterosexuals. It comes off sounding that preposterous. But, that's just my humble old elderly opinion.

 

[Inevitable]

No, anecdotal claims aren't valid proof.

Conversion therapy is quackery, and it has a higher suicide rate than a success rate. I don't care what your church websites say they are the wicked institutions that fabricated this garbage and fraudulently labeled it conversion therapy. There is zero provable success with so fraudulently called "conversion therapy" all you can really say is that you have beaten homosexuals into conforming to heterosexual behaviors or that you convinced bisexuals to forget about being with the same sex.

Prove the therapy isn't complete garbage, prove homosexuality is a condition in need of healing. Prove any of your claims aren't fraudulent, and please do so without using fraudulent links.

Hi Inevitable
No -- conversion therapy that is fraudulent abusive and coercive malpractice is
NOT the same and has NOTHING to do with real spiritual healing that is the opposite.
We are clearly talking about two different things.

Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt are long experienced, recognized teachers, trainers in spiritual healing which is harmless and works by free participation like other therapy.
It works by FORGIVENESS so nothing can be coerced or faked: forgiveness only works when it is only the person's free and true choice and not any other reason or it fails.
(The 5 stages of grief and recovery and the 12 steps to overcoming addiction are similar, working by forgiving each stage so people are free from the past, heal and move forward. Same process.)

She is a licensed pscyhotherapist and has saved lives from suicide, such as a rape patient
she mentioned and added to the latest edition of the book on "HEALING" which has been a standard textbook in seminaries. The 1999 editions or later also mention a medical study on rheumatoid arthritis where effects of spiritual healing were documented by professional team of doctors.

You can check out the resources online, look into the MacNutt's nonprofit, outreach and ministry and find ZERO cases of complaints by anyone, no arguments of fraud or abuse, because they only practice and teach *natural healing* that works alongside science and medicine.

Dr. Phillip Goldfedder is another healing practitioner, who used to work as a professional neurosurgeon until he found the process of spiritual healing to be more effective in helping more people. He did not believe this was science, until he saw proof for himself.

Dr. Scott Peck (deceased) also did not believe that "demon voices" were real and could be cured by applying the same "deliverance/exorcism" methods of spiritual healing that priests used. So he tried this himself, as a psychiatrist giving therapy to two patients, and found that the process worked. He wrote up his observations in two books "People of the Lie" and "Glimpses of the Devil"

Unlike Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt, you will find complaints online about Peck having sexual affairs or other questionable conduct that hurt his credibility.

However, you will not find any such negative reports or complaints about the
Christian Healing Ministry by Dr. MacNutt and his team of nonprofit volunteers.
(Their worst conflict was separating from the Catholic church, I am guessing over
their policy that only ordained and authorized priests can do the healing instead
of anybody with this calling, but that was done civilly so there is no "backlash" there.)

[MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION]
I have a friend in Houston Olivia Reiner who has a long term relationship with MD Anderson Cancer Center and helping with volunteer outreach to anyone who asks for healing prayer.
She gave me permission to post her number online for anyone to call.
it is posted at http://www.spiritual-healing.us.com and at the top of the page at http://www.houstonprogressive.org = 713 829 0899

She has over 35 years of testimony of spiritual healing that helped people,
without causing harm, and has healed sickness ranging from cancer, diabetes, multiple
personalities involving demon voices, and drug addictions and sexual abuse.

We are working to get these medical testimonies documented to post online.
Because she volunteers for free, we do not have fancy resources like people who run a church which she refused long ago because of the problems with money and fraud.

Like Dr. MacNutt, they keep their spiritual healing outreach free
so there is NO CONFUSION with false faith healing for money and fraud.

Elizabeth Collins is another volunteer with Olivia's nonprofit that has been pushing for medical research and formal studies to document this.

Many people already have their cases documented medically.

If you want formal medical proof, so do I.

If people only want to debunk it, they won't spend the money on research because they already believe it is false.

Peck seems to be the rare exception, who went through the steps to observe the process himself, PLANNING to debunk it as "mental delusion and false" but found the opposite.

Most people find it easier to debunk the source as "not credible," and won't look further.

So if that is the path you take, that is the most common.

It is too much work to try to do all the research it would take to change your own mind
if you already think you are right, and don't think you need to see any proof.

Dr. Goldfedder also researched it himself to see proof that it was real.
And it changed his mind and his entire practice. He gave up his more profitable
neurosurgery practice because spiritual healing addressed the root cause
instead of the symptoms.

I am happy to keep you updated
as I push for medical research to be replicated so this knowledge and process
can be made accessible to the public.

If you want to wait until other people prove it to believe it, that's fine.
Most people are like that.

I found out it was true before it became public knowledge.
So out of social responsibility and ethics to prevent people from suffering and dying,
of course I am going to promote a free solution that would save lives.

So I am pushing for medical proof, so that this is no longer an issue.

Spiritual healing is real, natural and effective,
works with science and medicine
does not impose any risk or harm (such as denying or neglecting
medical care or denying the fact that some things may not change or heal
and cannot be forced and other forms of false practice or fraud that causes harm)

If you don't believe this without proof, I don't blame you.
Dr. Peck didn't either until he saw enough proof to write a book
urging the medical and psychiatric profession to follow up with
formal scientific study, research and development of this natural therapy.

Dr. Goldfedder saw proof how it worked, tried it himself,
and gave up his surgical practice to focus on this therapy.

All I ask or suggest is that you keep an open mind.

To me it is dangerous to assume that all other reports to the contrary are false.

There is a method behind spiritual healing that can be explained and demonstated scientifically. Each person's process is unique to them, but the patterns are the same.

So that part can be proven to be effective,
by repeat application on different kinds of conditions
and show the statistical correlation between
* forgiveness and healing
* unforgiveness and not healing
* changing from unforgiveness to forgiveness
to show the change from not healing to healing

Sorry for the long response. This is a critical field and reform in medicine and mental health treatment, so I tend to go on and on about because I find it so important
to recognize it.

I do not think we can sustain society if we do not start practicing this therapy
on a regular basis to cure all cases that are possible (not all can be cured or changed).

The application to cancer, to mental illness, and especially to criminal illness
will effect a huge impact on our health systems, and govt and prison systems.

So this is a big deal.
It is like Nobel Prize material to prove through science and medicine
that spiritual healing is natural and can cure a wide variety of diseases.
And in the process bridge a huge gap between science and religion, reason and faith.

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]
My lord all that incessant babbling and carrying on and you didn't even touch the topic once.

proves that somebody who is homosexual needs healing specially or otherwise.

 

[Inevitable]

I strongly believe that Homosexuality is a mental illness. It may even be genetic, and inherent. But what disturbs me is the new mindset and politics of mass conformity that has glommed on to this particular group of humanity as if they are a newly discovered, never heard of before species of humans that is having their civil rights endangered by evil heterosexuals. It comes off sounding that preposterous. But, that's just my humble old elderly opinion.

[MENTION=34685]MaryL[/MENTION]
I would agree with you it does sound preposterous because it is. There is no mass mindset that believes this is a newly discovered species, why would you even suggest something so incredibly absurd?

And the nonsense about evil heterosexuals blah blah blah.. Made me laughout loud. .

 

[Inevitable]

No, anecdotal claims aren't valid proof.

Conversion therapy is quackery, and it has a higher suicide rate than a success rate. I don't care what your church websites say they are the wicked institutions that fabricated this garbage and fraudulently labeled it conversion therapy. There is zero provable success with so fraudulently called "conversion therapy" all you can really say is that you have beaten homosexuals into conforming to heterosexual behaviors or that you convinced bisexuals to forget about being with the same sex.

Prove the therapy isn't complete garbage, prove homosexuality is a condition in need of healing. Prove any of your claims aren't fraudulent, and please do so without using fraudulent links.

P.S. [MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION]
1. No, I did NOT say that homosexuality needed healing?
I said that it depends on the person.

If their sexual behavior (whether heterosexual OR homosexual) was unnaturally
caused by abuse, then if you heal the abuse, then their behavior CAN also healed.
That is not the same thing. Clearly it cannot be healed if it is natural for them!!!

2. Why is it okay to use anecdotes to show that people are "naturally
homosexual" I trust they are if they say that it is natural for them, based on their
anecdotes. Why isn't this okay for people who say that it wasn't their natural orientation, and that they changed it?

I use the same standard for both -- if people say it is natural or unnatural for them,
I believe that person.

3. Where did YOU prove that the links or references were fraudulent quacks?

[MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION] can you find ANY fraudulent reports on
* Dr. Francis MacNutt
* HEALING 1999 edition mentions medical studies on Rheumatoid Arthritis
* Christian Healing Ministries Home - Christian Healing Ministries

4. I am okay with setting up medical proof that spiritual healing is effective and safe
and NOT the same thing as any fraudulent "forced conversion" or "false faith healing"

this CAN be proven MEDICALLY

You can PROVE that false methods do NOT involve "forgiveness"
but maybe fear and guilt based conditions and expectations

You can PROVE through statistics that people who report "forgiveness"
are successful in their recovery therapy (from any number of conditions)
while people who don't go through forgiveness can get stuck and not finish the process

The key to natural healing
is "forgiveness" and there are many versions of this kind of therapy
and many successful stories out there -- all based on the same or similar process.

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]You are carrying on about sexual abuse. That is not what this thread is about. Why do you bring this up in every single post? This isn't the topic it isn't even in the right forum. Ifyouwant to talk about faith healing start a thread in health and lifestyle.

 

[gtarguy921]

I just have one question for everyone who argues homosexuality is a choice:

When did you decide what turns you on?

Everyone has something (or multiple somethings) that flip their switch, but if there are folks who arrived at their passions through conscious decision, they are few and far between.

We all know what turns us on. Few if any of us know why, and homosexuals are no different from anyone else in that regard.

 

[Inevitable]

It looks like I am going to have to start editing out all the irrelevant huey from your posts.

Hi A I was referring to SOME cases where orientation is not from birth.
In SOME cases the homosexual behavior was not natural for the person
but was a reaction to abuse or child rape, molestation, etc.

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]
The cause of homosexuality. is unknown, so assuming rape and/or sexual abuse or any abuse has anything to do with it is really not sound.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I just have one question for everyone who argues homosexuality is a choice:

When did you decide what turns you on?

Everyone has something (or multiple somethings) that flip their switch, but if there are folks who arrived at their passions through conscious decision, they are few and far between.

We all know what turns us on. Few if any of us know why, and homosexuals are no different from anyone else in that regard.

I know exactly what turns me on, and I remember when I figured it out.

 

[Inevitable]

I believe 100% that it is a choice, because one can "live without it" or rather that it is not a bare necessity at all, (food, shelter, etc) therefore it is a choice coming from the mind. I believe a person may "struggle" with it as I also believe it is a form a lust and lust is definitely a choice also which can also become a temptation, just as there are many "lust/fleshly" choices including fornication. (sex before holy matrimony)

Please know that my reply is not to put down or attack any homosexuals personally, as the Good Lord knows I've struggled and struggle with my own things I've done wrong or sinned. Daily I ask Him for forgiveness even in my mind, as we all fall short.

But overall, I believe it's a choice and goes directly along with these verses in The Bible and that it is a sin against God/how He created us to be and He wants to restore us from things like this:

Romans 1
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

When one reads all these verses very carefully, even asking God for help to read them if needed, it becomes clear that it's a "lust" which is a "choice".



.

[MENTION=25198]Marie888[/MENTION]
What makes homosexuality lust?

 

[Inevitable]

I just have one question for everyone who argues homosexuality is a choice:

When did you decide what turns you on?

Everyone has something (or multiple somethings) that flip their switch, but if there are folks who arrived at their passions through conscious decision, they are few and far between.

We all know what turns us on. Few if any of us know why, and homosexuals are no different from anyone else in that regard.

I know exactly what turns me on, and I remember when I figured it out.

[MENTION=23420]Quantum Windbag[/MENTION]
But when did you decide that the "thing that turns you on" would be the "thing that turned you on?

 

[Inevitable]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

To have sex is a choice

Sexuality isn't determined by having sex.

Did you know you wanted to have sex before ever having sex? If yes, than your sexuality was understood.