Is homosexuality a choice, a mental illness or something simply inherent?

[emilynghiem]

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

[MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] did people who were raped and
their sexual behavior (either homosexual or heterosexual) was caused by rape or abuse,
CHOOSE to be raped?

Were they BORN to be raped and abused?

I believe in spiritual karma, but we do not choose some of this karma that affects
what happens in life. We learn to deal with the karma.
Some believe our karma is decided before we are born.
Do you believe in that level?
I know someone who believes that rape victims had that in their karma.
Do you?

I'm waiving my hand over my head. I have no idea what you are talking about. I said that gay people don't chose to be gay just like I didn't chose to be straight. I just am. What does what I said have to do with rape? You completely lost me, please clarify what you are talking about related to what I said.

Sorry [MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] I was referring to people whose behavior was not born with them
but related to them being raped or abused.

How can someone be BORN gay, in cases where their behavior came from rape,
how does that apply? They could not have been born to be raped and become gay?

I was just trying to point out
that not all cases are the same.

Some people change who were not that way by birth,
so it was not their natural orientation.

Not all cases are natural by birth. Sorry I messed up that reply!

 

[emilynghiem]

One more time, if sexual preference were genetic identical twins would always have the same sexual preference. they don't.

In other words, you are still wrong.

This is mentioned in Dr. Francis MacNutt's book
"Homosexuality Can It Be Healed"
identical twins raised in the same household had AT MOST 50% match in orientation


Many people interpret this as showing a TENDENCY (where some studies show > 50%)
But since it isn't 100% then most people interpret it as "other factors involved"

Another friend of mine got over his bisexual feelings, thoughts and "tendencies" after
his doctor told him that he did all the research, and NOTHING confirmed there was anything "genetically" causing this. It was a choice or other factors involved. My friend did the research, agreed, and this helped him let go when he no longer felt he had no choice.

I have heard that "transgender" personality DO show the brain patterns
as the gender of their personality not their birth. I think it's the hypothalamus
that is different in size.

Doctors can look at the BRAINS of a person and tell the difference.

So there is something physical going on in such cases.

I believe that not all cases are the same: if someone is meant to be
a certain orientation in life, in order to have certain relations with certain people;
and if they are meant to change or not, that is part of their spiritual path and process
that is "unique to them" and may not be true for someone else. It's almost an exercise
in realizing that there is an exception to every rule, just when you think you've heard it all,
here comes someone else with a different experience that doesn't fit other paradigms!

 

[kaz]

[MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] did people who were raped and
their sexual behavior (either homosexual or heterosexual) was caused by rape or abuse,
CHOOSE to be raped?

Were they BORN to be raped and abused?

I believe in spiritual karma, but we do not choose some of this karma that affects
what happens in life. We learn to deal with the karma.
Some believe our karma is decided before we are born.
Do you believe in that level?
I know someone who believes that rape victims had that in their karma.
Do you?

I'm waiving my hand over my head. I have no idea what you are talking about. I said that gay people don't chose to be gay just like I didn't chose to be straight. I just am. What does what I said have to do with rape? You completely lost me, please clarify what you are talking about related to what I said.

Sorry [MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] I was referring to people whose behavior was not born with them
but related to them being raped or abused.

How can someone be BORN gay, in cases where their behavior came from rape,
how does that apply? They could not have been born to be raped and become gay?

I was just trying to point out
that not all cases are the same.

Some people change who were not that way by birth,
so it was not their natural orientation.

Not all cases are natural by birth. Sorry I messed up that reply!

Rape is an action with a victim. Gay is an orientation. If a gay has gay sex with a willing gay partner, there is no victim. I don't see how they are comparable. I still don't see what you are trying to get at.

 

[Katzndogz]

Homosexuality is genetic.

That is the one thing anyone who pays attention knows it isn't.

My sister is lesbian. We knew she was lesbian by the time she was 10 years old. She is a man in every respect save her genitalia and has ALWAYS been so. She was the toughest kid in her school and regularly took on the bullies who were tormenting her friends.

She has been in a committed relationship with her wife for over 15 years. There is no doubt that she is lesbian and has always been one.

Likewise my daughters godmother. She too has always been a lesbian. She tried real hard to be "normal". She comes from a devout Catholic family and dated guys up into college. It was never comfortable for her. Never. She then was introduced to a lesbian from another college student and instantaneously she knew that it was the right thing for her.

I am sorry but you and those who think like you are simply wrong. You allow your religious training and upbringing to bias your thinking.

How long have you known this godmothrr? Has she molested your sister? Is early molestation by a close family friend the reason your sister is a lesbian?

Your sister sounds like a typical tomboy. Much like myself when I was a child. Many lesbians are attracted to such girls.

 

[Asclepias]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

To have sex is a choice

That has nothing to do with your orientation.

 

[westwall]

Really? Scientist are the people that tell me that what I just said is true. I even posted a link to the study that explains it, and you still insist that you are right. Are all of them intellectually dishonest, or are you just a close minded bigot?

Here is what the study says...

However, despite numerous studies over the last decade searching for polymorphisms associated with homosexuality, no convincing molecular genetic evidence has been found despite the fact that pedigree and twin studies clearly show that homosexuality is familial (reviewed in Ngun et al. 2011). Homosexuality has also been hypothesized to be caused by nongenetic factors such as maternal antibodies against male-specific antigens (reviewed in Bogaert and Skorska 2011). This hypothesis may indeed explain some cases of homosexuality, but cannot account for most cases in men and none in women (Cantor et al. 2002). The poor correspondence between current models and data calls for a new conceptual framework to understand the evolution of homosexuality.


What that states is we have FAMILIAL evidence that shows it is genetic but our MODELS can't reproduce that.

You have fallen for the same silliness that global warming nutters have where they pay more attention to their models than the FACTS which inconveniently screw up their models.

Here's a clue...."familial" equals genetic...

"Substantial Heritability" equals genetic....

"Models" equal fiction....

I get it now, you don't understand the language that scientists use, let me translate that for you. The part you highlighted in blue clearly states that there is no evidence that sexual preference is caused by genes. The other part says that there is a correlation among families that indicates that it is familial. You do understand that correlation does not equal causation, don't you?

As for heritability, it has nothing to do with individuals. I will use Wikipedia so you don't get confused when I make my point.

The heritability of a trait is the square of the coefficient of G in a linear approximation to the surface GxE to trait. Factors including genetics, environment and random chance can all contribute to the variation between individuals in their observable characteristics (in their "phenotypes"). Heritability thus analyzes the relative contributions of differences in genetic and non-genetic factors to the total phenotypic variance in a population. For instance, some humans in a population are taller than others; heritability attempts to identify how much genetics play a role in part of the population being extra tall.

Heritability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, heritability is not about individuals, it is about the entire population.

Anything else you don't understand?

Then why does it run in families?

 

[Asclepias]

REVISED sorry

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

[MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] What about people who were raped and
their sexual behavior (either homosexual or heterosexual) was caused by rape or abuse:

Were they BORN to be raped and abused?

I believe in spiritual karma, but we do not choose some of this karma that affects
what happens in life. We learn to deal with the karma.
Some believe our karma is decided before we are born.
Do you believe in that level?
I know someone who believes that rape victims had that in their karma.
Do you?

What does being raped and your sexual orientation have to do with each other?

 

[Nyvin]

Sorry [MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] I was referring to people whose behavior was not born with them
but related to them being raped or abused.

How can someone be BORN gay, in cases where their behavior came from rape,
how does that apply? They could not have been born to be raped and become gay?

I was just trying to point out
that not all cases are the same.

Some people change who were not that way by birth,
so it was not their natural orientation.

Not all cases are natural by birth. Sorry I messed up that reply!

I have never once in my life heard or read about someone turning gay as a result of being raped....wtf are you talking about???

 

[Asclepias]

For most it is a choice...but for some it's not. It's ridiculous to think that every homosexual act is because of genetics.

Being born gay is not a choice. Sexual acts have nothing to do with that.

 

[Howey]

REVISED sorry

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

[MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] What about people who were raped and
their sexual behavior (either homosexual or heterosexual) was caused by rape or abuse:

Were they BORN to be raped and abused?

I believe in spiritual karma, but we do not choose some of this karma that affects
what happens in life. We learn to deal with the karma.
Some believe our karma is decided before we are born.
Do you believe in that level?
I know someone who believes that rape victims had that in their karma.
Do you?

What does being raped and your sexual orientation have to do with each other?

I was wondering that too, but Emily apparently is a misguided soul ala' GIZMO.

 

[emilynghiem]

REVISED sorry

People are born that way. They chose to be gay no more than I chose to be straight.

[MENTION=26616]kaz[/MENTION] What about people who were raped and
their sexual behavior (either homosexual or heterosexual) was caused by rape or abuse:

Were they BORN to be raped and abused?

I believe in spiritual karma, but we do not choose some of this karma that affects
what happens in life. We learn to deal with the karma.
Some believe our karma is decided before we are born.
Do you believe in that level?
I know someone who believes that rape victims had that in their karma.
Do you?

What does being raped and your sexual orientation have to do with each other?

Hi A I was referring to SOME cases where orientation is not from birth.
In SOME cases the homosexual behavior was not natural for the person
but was a reaction to abuse or child rape, molestation, etc.

A friend of mine recently counseling a lesbian who was working through issues of being abused herself.

When she healed of this abuse, the desire for homosexual sexual relations also went away.
so in SOME CASES the PERSON attributes their homosexuality to abuse.

It is not for others to determine that, or say "all cases are like that."

I believe it when a person says that it applied to THEM.

So I have heard of enough of these cases to know that SOME ARE like this.
SOME people were not naturally oriented that way, but after unnatural abuse.
And SOME people have healed of that and changed orientation to restore their natural state.

Of friends I have known or talked to personally:
one friend let go of feelings he had a transgender personality after he received healing
another friend came out as transgender female after going through forgiveness healing
another friend dropped his bisexual thoughts and feelings after counseling

I can only guess the common pattern is that people return to their natural
orientation after they forgive heal and remove whatever conditions caused otherwise.

My friend Olivia is the one who counseled a young woman who had been raped by incest over her childhood; and after she healed of that, she no longer had lesbian orientation. In such cases, I believe it can only make sense if they were naturally heterosexual to begin with. If they were acting unnaturally for what they normally are, then that could change.

It depends on the person. Most people I know are not happy until they make peace with how they are naturally. The point of therapy is to resolve any conflicts causing problems.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Here is what the study says...

However, despite numerous studies over the last decade searching for polymorphisms associated with homosexuality, no convincing molecular genetic evidence has been found despite the fact that pedigree and twin studies clearly show that homosexuality is familial (reviewed in Ngun et al. 2011). Homosexuality has also been hypothesized to be caused by nongenetic factors such as maternal antibodies against male-specific antigens (reviewed in Bogaert and Skorska 2011). This hypothesis may indeed explain some cases of homosexuality, but cannot account for most cases in men and none in women (Cantor et al. 2002). The poor correspondence between current models and data calls for a new conceptual framework to understand the evolution of homosexuality.


What that states is we have FAMILIAL evidence that shows it is genetic but our MODELS can't reproduce that.

You have fallen for the same silliness that global warming nutters have where they pay more attention to their models than the FACTS which inconveniently screw up their models.

Here's a clue...."familial" equals genetic...

"Substantial Heritability" equals genetic....

"Models" equal fiction....

I get it now, you don't understand the language that scientists use, let me translate that for you. The part you highlighted in blue clearly states that there is no evidence that sexual preference is caused by genes. The other part says that there is a correlation among families that indicates that it is familial. You do understand that correlation does not equal causation, don't you?

As for heritability, it has nothing to do with individuals. I will use Wikipedia so you don't get confused when I make my point.

The heritability of a trait is the square of the coefficient of G in a linear approximation to the surface GxE to trait. Factors including genetics, environment and random chance can all contribute to the variation between individuals in their observable characteristics (in their "phenotypes"). Heritability thus analyzes the relative contributions of differences in genetic and non-genetic factors to the total phenotypic variance in a population. For instance, some humans in a population are taller than others; heritability attempts to identify how much genetics play a role in part of the population being extra tall.

Heritability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, heritability is not about individuals, it is about the entire population.

Anything else you don't understand?

Then why does it run in families?

That is a good question, and where honest people admit that there really isn't an answer.

 

[emilynghiem]

I get it now, you don't understand the language that scientists use, let me translate that for you. The part you highlighted in blue clearly states that there is no evidence that sexual preference is caused by genes. The other part says that there is a correlation among families that indicates that it is familial. You do understand that correlation does not equal causation, don't you?

As for heritability, it has nothing to do with individuals. I will use Wikipedia so you don't get confused when I make my point.

Heritability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, heritability is not about individuals, it is about the entire population.

Anything else you don't understand?

Then why does it run in families?

That is a good question, and where honest people admit that there really isn't an answer.

1. That's one area where the argument can be made that it is spiritually determined.

People who believe and study the laws of karma have reported spiritual connections between people "reborn" in future relationship between "husband and wife" or family members. So if homosexuality is correlated with certain karma, that could be born into certain families also so those members experience certain relations with each other.

2. I found something about the twin study still interpreted as being "partially" genetic:
Biological basis of sexual orientation

Note the last section:

Finally, there is some evidence that the brains of homosexuals may be different from those of heterosexual men and women. The differences have been found in the hypothalamus, which controls eating, drinking, temperature regulation and sexual behavior. Studies done in the Netherlands and in Southern California have found such differences in several areas within the hypothalamus. One region, the midsagittal area of the anterior commissure, is larger in females than in males, but also appears to be larger in homosexual males. Another area, the suprachiasmatic nucleus, which controls circadian rhythm, is larger in heterosexual males and females than it is in homosexuals.

Another reason I go with "spiritually determined" is this would explain both genetic and environmental factors, and cover ALL cases of either one, since the spiritual realm of laws of karma or cause and effect would essentially influence both the manifestation in the genetics and the social and environment factors, including whom we interact with in life.

That is the one approach I found that covers ALL cases, whether natural or unnatural, born or caused, genetic or environmental -- if there are spiritual reasons and patterns that influence how things happen and whether or not things change.

 

[BobPlumb]

If heard of cases of people that have dissociated personality syndrome (multiple personalities) in which some of the personilities are gay and some are not. Just thought I'd throw that bone into the discussion.

Interviewing a Person with Multiple Personalities

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If heard of cases of people that have dissociated personality syndrome (multiple personalities) in which some of the personilities are gay and some are not. Just thought I'd throw that bone into the discussion.

Interviewing a Person with Multiple Personalities

I had forgotten about MPD. I read a book once that got inside the head of a man with MPD who was convicted of rape. The personality that actually raped the women turned out to be a female that was lesbian. Kind of bts the whole debate into a differnt realm when we look at the extremes of the human psyche.

 

[Asclepias]

If heard of cases of people that have dissociated personality syndrome (multiple personalities) in which some of the personilities are gay and some are not. Just thought I'd throw that bone into the discussion.

Interviewing a Person with Multiple Personalities

Wouldnt that be as a result of learned behavior? From what I understand MPD is a result of coping with stress. You could inherently be hetero but invent a homo personality.

 

[westwall]

I get it now, you don't understand the language that scientists use, let me translate that for you. The part you highlighted in blue clearly states that there is no evidence that sexual preference is caused by genes. The other part says that there is a correlation among families that indicates that it is familial. You do understand that correlation does not equal causation, don't you?

As for heritability, it has nothing to do with individuals. I will use Wikipedia so you don't get confused when I make my point.

Heritability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, heritability is not about individuals, it is about the entire population.

Anything else you don't understand?

Then why does it run in families?

That is a good question, and where honest people admit that there really isn't an answer.

What would Occams Razor have to say about it?

 

[GISMYS]

BOTTOMLINE=TO LIVE IN HOMOSEXUALITY IS CHOICE NOT GENES!!!!Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality... NW.

 

[westwall]

BOTTOMLINE=TO LIVE IN HOMOSEXUALITY IS CHOICE NOT GENES!!!!Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality... NW.

Perfectly explainable by epigenetics which are triggers that turn genes either on or off post birth. Or, put another way, why would anyone CHOOSE a lifestyle that gets them killed in most places of the world?

 

[GISMYS]

BOTTOMLINE=TO LIVE IN HOMOSEXUALITY IS CHOICE NOT GENES!!!!Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality... NW.

Perfectly explainable by epigenetics which are triggers that turn genes either on or off post birth. Or, put another way, why would anyone CHOOSE a lifestyle that gets them killed in most places of the world?

LOL!!! NO! WHAT TURNS YOUR HOMOSEXUAL GENE ON IS YOUR CHOICE TO PLAY WITH PERVERSION AND BURN WITH PERVERTED LUST!! counr the cost!!!