Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

They accepted all of it. It was the outbreak of hostilities the changed the conditions.

Israel never agreed with resolution 181. The Cablegram (S/747 16 May 1948) to the Secretary-General on 15 May, 1948 was a lie.

Again, with the word "lie." I don't know how you can claim this, as the Arab-Palestinian (along with the Arab League) immediately opened hostilities with the new state of Israel on their independence say. So, how could you possible know what they accepted and what they didn't.

Israel had ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousand of Palestinians out of the area allotted to the Jewish state. It also was cleansing thousands of Palestinians out of the area allotted to the Arabs including from the international city of Jerusalem.

All of this was before Israel sent that lie to the UN and before any Arab country entered Palestine..

What part of resolution 181 did they agree with?

(OBSERVATION)

Again, the records shows:

End of the British Mandate

The adoption of resolution 181 (II) was followed by outbreaks of violence in Palestine. As the situation deteriorated, the Security Council called for a special session of the General Assembly, which then met from 16 April to 14 May 1948. On 17 April, the Security Council called for the cessation of all military and paramilitary activities in Palestine, and on 23 April it established a Truce Commission to supervise and help bring about a ceasefire. For its part, the General Assembly relieved the Palestine Commission of its responsibilities and decided to appoint a mediator charged with promoting a peaceful settlement in cooperation with the Truce Commission. On 20 May, Count Folke Bernadotte, President of the Swedish Red Cross, was chosen as United Nations Mediator.​

The first Arab-Israeli war, 1948-1949

On 14 May 1948, Britain relinquished its Mandate over Palestine and disengaged its forces. On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan. Fierce hostilities immediately broke out between the Arab and Jewish communities. The next day, regular troops of the neighbouring Arab States entered the territory to assist the Palestinian Arabs.​

SOURCE: The Question of Palestine and the United Nations

The history is what it is. No one can turn the clock back and fix the mistakes made over a half-century ago. The strategy to overrun Israel using the "Right of Return" concept is not going to work. The Hostile Arab Palestinian created the impetus that triggered the refugee flow, and they lost. Now they have to solve the dilemma and live with the consequences.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[MHunterB]

"Semitic Action (Hebrew: הפעולה השמית*, HaPeulah Hashemit) was a small Israeli political group of the 1950s and 1960s which sought the creation of a regional federation encompassing Israel and its Arab neighbors.[1][2]

"Created in 1956,[2] the group's key members were Uri Avnery, Natan Yellin-Mor, and Boaz Evron,[3] with other members including Maxim Ghilan, Shalom Cohen, and Amos Kenan.[4]

"Joel Beinin describes the group as 'a political expression of the Canaanite movement' which "advocated that Hebrew-speaking Israelis cut their ties with the Jewish diaspora and integrate into the Middle East as natives of the region on the basis of an anticolonialist alliance with its indigenous Arab inhabitants."

Do you think AIPAC would approve?

I think it's entirely irrelevant - and simply one more attempt at 'Jew-baiting'.

 

[MHunterB]

The current problem with the application for admission to the UN is the wording and language of the Palestinian National Charter; which was suppose to be changed after the Oslo Accords, but with the change being rejected by the Palestinian Executive Committee. The Charter contains language which cannot be certified by the Security Council as meeting the peaceful intent of the United Nations.

Of course they could do what Israel did.

Just lie.

Palestine is not a threat to any of its neighbors.

Thanks for giving us an illustration of the kind of lie you meant - but why not give us an example of what you consider to be a lie told by Israelis ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

They accepted all of it. It was the outbreak of hostilities the changed the conditions.

Israel never agreed with resolution 181. The Cablegram (S/747 16 May 1948) to the Secretary-General on 15 May, 1948 was a lie.

Israel had ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousand of Palestinians out of the area allotted to the Jewish state. It also was cleansing thousands of Palestinians out of the area allotted to the Arabs including from the international city of Jerusalem.

All of this was before Israel sent that lie to the UN and before any Arab country entered Palestine..

What part of resolution 181 did they agree with?

(OBSERVATION)

Again, the records shows:

End of the British Mandate

The adoption of resolution 181 (II) was followed by outbreaks of violence in Palestine. As the situation deteriorated, the Security Council called for a special session of the General Assembly, which then met from 16 April to 14 May 1948. On 17 April, the Security Council called for the cessation of all military and paramilitary activities in Palestine, and on 23 April it established a Truce Commission to supervise and help bring about a ceasefire. For its part, the General Assembly relieved the Palestine Commission of its responsibilities and decided to appoint a mediator charged with promoting a peaceful settlement in cooperation with the Truce Commission. On 20 May, Count Folke Bernadotte, President of the Swedish Red Cross, was chosen as United Nations Mediator.​

The first Arab-Israeli war, 1948-1949

On 14 May 1948, Britain relinquished its Mandate over Palestine and disengaged its forces. On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan. Fierce hostilities immediately broke out between the Arab and Jewish communities. The next day, regular troops of the neighbouring Arab States entered the territory to assist the Palestinian Arabs.​

SOURCE: The Question of Palestine and the United Nations

The history is what it is. No one can turn the clock back and fix the mistakes made over a half-century ago. The strategy to overrun Israel using the "Right of Return" concept is not going to work. The Hostile Arab Palestinian created the impetus that triggered the refugee flow, and they lost. Now they have to solve the dilemma and live with the consequences.

Most Respectfully,
R

They accepted all of it. It was the outbreak of hostilities the changed the conditions.

What part of the word before confuses you?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

What you describe is the very description of the dispute.

If you argue that ALL international lines of demarcation for Israel are in dispute, then the following RoL applies:

Palestine has international borders.

Israel has no borders.

I don't see a dispute. None of the following applies.

(COMMENT)

This is just a Palestinian way of trying to "not recognize" the State of Israel. It is their way of trying to escape the Rule of Law.

And as long as the Palestinian attempts to skirt the Rule of Law, there will always be those that will oppose their behaviors and recognize them as a deserving peace culture.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

What you describe is the very description of the dispute.

If you argue that ALL international lines of demarcation for Israel are in dispute, then the following RoL applies:

Palestine has international borders.

Israel has no borders.

I don't see a dispute. None of the following applies.

(COMMENT)

This is just a Palestinian way of trying to "not recognize" the State of Israel. It is their way of trying to escape the Rule of Law.

And as long as the Palestinian attempts to skirt the Rule of Law, there will always be those that will oppose their behaviors and recognize them as a deserving peace culture.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel occupies Palestine. What laws are the Palestinians violating by resisting the occupation?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I've cited the Rule of Laws. You just fail to recognize them as legitimate. Which is in keeping with the HAMAS tenant:

• "Anything contrary or contradictory to these trends, is a lie disseminated by enemies or their lackeys for the purpose of sowing confusion, disrupting the ranks and occupy them with side issues."

Two issues here.

P F Tinmore, et al,

What you describe is the very description of the dispute.

Palestine has international borders.

Israel has no borders.

I don't see a dispute. None of the following applies.

(COMMENT)

This is just a Palestinian way of trying to "not recognize" the State of Israel. It is their way of trying to escape the Rule of Law.

And as long as the Palestinian attempts to skirt the Rule of Law, there will always be those that will oppose their behaviors and recognize them as a deserving peace culture.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel occupies Palestine. What laws are the Palestinians violating by resisting the occupation?

(COMMENT)

First, Israel only "occupies" the areas as described in UN Security Council Resolution 242 (AKA: The "Land for Peace" Resolution); note the map link called "territories."

The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;​

2. Affirms further the necessity

(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;​

3. Requests the Secretary-General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.
Adopted unanimously at the 1382nd meeting.​

SOURCE: S/RES/242 22 November 1967

The second question is, "what happens when you release the Tiger's tail?" (You get eaten!) No matter which voice you choose to accept as the voice of the Arab Palestinian, neither recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel in policy or political position.

• "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

To withdraw the Occupation, is to leave the Palestinian People the open opportunity to reinitiate hostilities. Under what rationale would it be advisable to release a hostile population to pursue the historical behaviors that they themselves acknowledge?

• "The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Qassam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood."

Until such time as Hostile Arab Palestinian can demonstrate that the are willing to joint in a peaceful solution to grievances, the release of the Occupation is ill advised. Remember the Arab Palestinian pledge:

• "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I've cited the Rule of Laws. You just fail to recognize them as legitimate. Which is in keeping with the HAMAS tenant:

• "Anything contrary or contradictory to these trends, is a lie disseminated by enemies or their lackeys for the purpose of sowing confusion, disrupting the ranks and occupy them with side issues."

Two issues here.

P F Tinmore, et al,

What you describe is the very description of the dispute.


(COMMENT)

This is just a Palestinian way of trying to "not recognize" the State of Israel. It is their way of trying to escape the Rule of Law.

And as long as the Palestinian attempts to skirt the Rule of Law, there will always be those that will oppose their behaviors and recognize them as a deserving peace culture.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel occupies Palestine. What laws are the Palestinians violating by resisting the occupation?

(COMMENT)

First, Israel only "occupies" the areas as described in UN Security Council Resolution 242 (AKA: The "Land for Peace" Resolution); note the map link called "territories."

The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;​

2. Affirms further the necessity

(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;​

3. Requests the Secretary-General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.
Adopted unanimously at the 1382nd meeting.​

SOURCE: S/RES/242 22 November 1967

The second question is, "what happens when you release the Tiger's tail?" (You get eaten!) No matter which voice you choose to accept as the voice of the Arab Palestinian, neither recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel in policy or political position.

• "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

To withdraw the Occupation, is to leave the Palestinian People the open opportunity to reinitiate hostilities. Under what rationale would it be advisable to release a hostile population to pursue the historical behaviors that they themselves acknowledge?

• "The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Qassam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood."

Until such time as Hostile Arab Palestinian can demonstrate that the are willing to joint in a peaceful solution to grievances, the release of the Occupation is ill advised. Remember the Arab Palestinian pledge:

• "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Most Respectfully,
R

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Israel is a foreign power that acquired all of its territory at the point of a gun.

 

[Bumberclyde]

Bumberclyde; et al,

I guess that depends on if I'm a good guy or a bad guy.

So Roc, if a gang of people with weapons come to your house and give you 5 minutes to get out or they'll kill you and your whole family, would you accept it peacefully and let them take your house and land and then send you to a Warsaw Ghetto style camp, or would you be pissed off and want to fight to get it back?

(COMMENT)

This is a pro-Victimization question.

If I, as a lawless member of the population, open up hostilities on the Sovereign State, and back the aggression of five foreign Armies that launch an attack on my behalf, then I expect to be treated as an aggressor and hostile member of the population.

But make no mistake. I know that I am a hostile threat and operating outside the RoL.

As for the "Warsaw Ghetto style camp." May I ask, who set those camps up and why? Remember, the Arab League reconstituted the Arab Higher Committee that rejected the Partition Plan. It was the Arab League that launched the coordinated attack. It was the Arab League that failed to reach their objective.

The Hostile Arab Palestinian trusted in the Arab League and its leadership to accomplish the goal of defeating the State of Israel. Who bares the responsibility for the refugee that comes from the illegal aggression by the Arab League?

Most Respectfully,
R

Nice deflection, I asked: "So Roc, if a gang of people with weapons come to your house and give you 5 minutes to get out or they'll kill you and your whole family, would you accept it peacefully and let them take your house and land and then send you to a Warsaw Ghetto style camp, or would you be pissed off and want to fight to get it back?"

Not, if after that happens, will you get branded "Hostile" and be blamed for losing your home and wanting it back. Please try again. Or does my question make you squirm?

 

[RoccoR]

Bumberclyde; et al,

As a member of a body of criminals, I might. Nearly all criminals object to correctional activity.

Nice deflection, I asked: "So Roc, if a gang of people with weapons come to your house and give you 5 minutes to get out or they'll kill you and your whole family, would you accept it peacefully and let them take your house and land and then send you to a Warsaw Ghetto style camp, or would you be pissed off and want to fight to get it back?"

Not, if after that happens, will you get branded "Hostile" and be blamed for losing your home and wanting it back. Please try again. Or does my question make you squirm?

(COMMENT)

Does it make me squirm? No! I'm not a party to the conflict.

I'm surely not related to the people that hold up Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, founder of the Black Hand, and first among Palestinian terrorists which triggered the conflict in the 1930's. Yes, if I was assaulted by the Black Hand, I might be a little annoyed.

If the question is still, after three major wars, undecided, and you are still attempting to achieve and alternate ending by force, then --- Occupation should continue.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Bumberclyde]

Bumberclyde; et al,

As a member of a body of criminals, I might. Nearly all criminals object to correctional activity.

Nice deflection, I asked: "So Roc, if a gang of people with weapons come to your house and give you 5 minutes to get out or they'll kill you and your whole family, would you accept it peacefully and let them take your house and land and then send you to a Warsaw Ghetto style camp, or would you be pissed off and want to fight to get it back?"

Not, if after that happens, will you get branded "Hostile" and be blamed for losing your home and wanting it back. Please try again. Or does my question make you squirm?

(COMMENT)

Does it make me squirm? No! I'm not a party to the conflict.

I'm surely not related to the people that hold up Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, founder of the Black Hand, and first among Palestinian terrorists which triggered the conflict in the 1930's. Yes, if I was assaulted by the Black Hand, I might be a little annoyed.

If the question is still, after three major wars, undecided, and you are still attempting to achieve and alternate ending by force, then --- Occupation should continue.

Most Respectfully,
R

I'm guessing that English isn't your first language, so I'll cut you some slack. I wasn't talking about you being a Palestinian, I was hypothetically saying if that happened to you today where you live now, how would you feel? Pissed off? Don't care and would move no problem? ...

 

[P F Tinmore]

Bumberclyde; et al,

As a member of a body of criminals, I might. Nearly all criminals object to correctional activity.

Nice deflection, I asked: "So Roc, if a gang of people with weapons come to your house and give you 5 minutes to get out or they'll kill you and your whole family, would you accept it peacefully and let them take your house and land and then send you to a Warsaw Ghetto style camp, or would you be pissed off and want to fight to get it back?"

Not, if after that happens, will you get branded "Hostile" and be blamed for losing your home and wanting it back. Please try again. Or does my question make you squirm?

(COMMENT)

Does it make me squirm? No! I'm not a party to the conflict.

I'm surely not related to the people that hold up Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, founder of the Black Hand, and first among Palestinian terrorists which triggered the conflict in the 1930's. Yes, if I was assaulted by the Black Hand, I might be a little annoyed.

If the question is still, after three major wars, undecided, and you are still attempting to achieve and alternate ending by force, then --- Occupation should continue.

Most Respectfully,
R

I'm surely not related to the people that hold up Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, founder of the Black Hand, and first among Palestinian terrorists which triggered the conflict in the 1930's.

Organizations are not formed in a vacuum. What was the purpose for their formation?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,[/I]

(SIDEBAR REFERENCES)

• The Official Website of Hamas can be viewed at: www.hamasinfo.net
• The Official Website of the Ezzedeen Al-Qassam Brigades (EQB) can be viewed at: http://www.qassam.ps/index.html

(PREFACE)

First, let me say, that racial, gender and age profiling are unreliable methods of determining generic organizational characteristics or the scope and nature of the threat they actually present. While it works for some insurgent groups, revolutionaries, and martyrdom activities, it doesn't in the case of Palestinians. The left extreme example is 1972 Airport massacre in Tel Aviv. While the Airport attack was executed on behalf of the People’s Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), it was actually perpetrated by sympathetic members of the Japanese Red Army (JRA). On the right hand side of the extreme, you will notice that the HAMAS Covenant goes out of it way to include and recruit "women" in the Jihadist effort; the PFLP’s Leila Khalid is a classic example; as well as Reem Riyashi of HAMAS.

I'm surely not related to the people that hold up Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, founder of the Black Hand, and first among Palestinian terrorists which triggered the conflict in the 1930's.

Organizations are not formed in a vacuum. What was the purpose for their formation?

(COMMENT)

Izz ad-Din al-Qassam was an anti-Zionist and anti-British militant who fight against British, French, and Zionist activites in the eastern Levant territories (usually areas under LoN Mandate) in the 1920s and 1930s. Originally, al-Qassam fought against the Allied Powers on religious grounds, and not a political basis. Sheik al-Qassem had secured an Islamic Fatwa from The "Greatest Muhaddith of Damascus" (who was himself, engaged in anti-Government activity against the French Mandates over Lebanon and Syria) to pursue his Jihad in the British Mandate and attack Jewish settlers. Much of that approach was do to the influence of his father who was a Sharia court official and leader of the Qadari Suffi Order (a traditional, Islamic order whose origins started with two great Saints of early Sufism).

The resistance movements took various shapes and positions in the years leading up to WWII, but always came back to Islamic fundamentalist teachings and anti-Zionism (immigration into the region). As a general footprint, organizations that follow the al-Qassam model, have these characteristics in common:

• Feel angry at being isolated or excluded, especially from society at large; or at being deprived of a privilege, immunity, or legal rights.
• Feel angry at being in a political environment without the power to effect real change.
• They have a tendency to identify with other victims of the social injustice.
• Feel the need to take action rather than just talking about the problem.
• They don't believe that engaging in violence against the state is not immoral.
• Believe that joining a hostile or aggressive movement offers social and psychological rewards, adventure, camaraderie, and a new sense of identity.

And in this regard, you can see all of these symptoms in the Islamic Resistance Movement; both in HAMAS and FATAH. Most of the leadership consists of disenchanted intellectuals either from a professional discipline or from deep exposures to religious teaching; sometimes both. In the case of the Palestinian movements, they also tend to blame the job, the wife, the dog, the mother-in-law, the neighbor six doors down, the media, the government, the receptionist at the doctor’s office, or the tailor who measured them wrong --- ALL are somehow responsible for the problems and plight of the Palestinian. Rarely do they accept an alternative view that is contrary to theirs and rarely do the accept the consequences for any action they take.

Why are they at war with Israel? I don't know, but it is not their fault!

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,[/I]

(SIDEBAR REFERENCES)

• The Official Website of Hamas can be viewed at: www.hamasinfo.net
• The Official Website of the Ezzedeen Al-Qassam Brigades (EQB) can be viewed at: http://www.qassam.ps/index.html

(PREFACE)

First, let me say, that racial, gender and age profiling are unreliable methods of determining generic organizational characteristics or the scope and nature of the threat they actually present. While it works for some insurgent groups, revolutionaries, and martyrdom activities, it doesn't in the case of Palestinians. The left extreme example is 1972 Airport massacre in Tel Aviv. While the Airport attack was executed on behalf of the People’s Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), it was actually perpetrated by sympathetic members of the Japanese Red Army (JRA). On the right hand side of the extreme, you will notice that the HAMAS Covenant goes out of it way to include and recruit "women" in the Jihadist effort; the PFLP’s Leila Khalid is a classic example; as well as Reem Riyashi of HAMAS.

I'm surely not related to the people that hold up Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, founder of the Black Hand, and first among Palestinian terrorists which triggered the conflict in the 1930's.

Organizations are not formed in a vacuum. What was the purpose for their formation?

(COMMENT)

Izz ad-Din al-Qassam was an anti-Zionist and anti-British militant who fight against British, French, and Zionist activites in the eastern Levant territories (usually areas under LoN Mandate) in the 1920s and 1930s. Originally, al-Qassam fought against the Allied Powers on religious grounds, and not a political basis. Sheik al-Qassem had secured an Islamic Fatwa from The "Greatest Muhaddith of Damascus" (who was himself, engaged in anti-Government activity against the French Mandates over Lebanon and Syria) to pursue his Jihad in the British Mandate and attack Jewish settlers. Much of that approach was do to the influence of his father who was a Sharia court official and leader of the Qadari Suffi Order (a traditional, Islamic order whose origins started with two great Saints of early Sufism).

The resistance movements took various shapes and positions in the years leading up to WWII, but always came back to Islamic fundamentalist teachings and anti-Zionism (immigration into the region). As a general footprint, organizations that follow the al-Qassam model, have these characteristics in common:

• Feel angry at being isolated or excluded, especially from society at large; or at being deprived of a privilege, immunity, or legal rights.
• Feel angry at being in a political environment without the power to effect real change.
• They have a tendency to identify with other victims of the social injustice.
• Feel the need to take action rather than just talking about the problem.
• They don't believe that engaging in violence against the state is not immoral.
• Believe that joining a hostile or aggressive movement offers social and psychological rewards, adventure, camaraderie, and a new sense of identity.

And in this regard, you can see all of these symptoms in the Islamic Resistance Movement; both in HAMAS and FATAH. Most of the leadership consists of disenchanted intellectuals either from a professional discipline or from deep exposures to religious teaching; sometimes both. In the case of the Palestinian movements, they also tend to blame the job, the wife, the dog, the mother-in-law, the neighbor six doors down, the media, the government, the receptionist at the doctor’s office, or the tailor who measured them wrong --- ALL are somehow responsible for the problems and plight of the Palestinian. Rarely do they accept an alternative view that is contrary to theirs and rarely do the accept the consequences for any action they take.

Why are they at war with Israel? I don't know, but it is not their fault!

Most Respectfully,
R

Wow, all that!

It wouldn't have anything to do with the Zionist takeover of Palestine, would it?

Of course not.

 

[georgephillip]

"Semitic Action (Hebrew: הפעולה השמית*, HaPeulah Hashemit) was a small Israeli political group of the 1950s and 1960s which sought the creation of a regional federation encompassing Israel and its Arab neighbors.[1][2]

"Created in 1956,[2] the group's key members were Uri Avnery, Natan Yellin-Mor, and Boaz Evron,[3] with other members including Maxim Ghilan, Shalom Cohen, and Amos Kenan.[4]

"Joel Beinin describes the group as 'a political expression of the Canaanite movement' which "advocated that Hebrew-speaking Israelis cut their ties with the Jewish diaspora and integrate into the Middle East as natives of the region on the basis of an anticolonialist alliance with its indigenous Arab inhabitants."

Do you think AIPAC would approve?

I think it's entirely irrelevant - and simply one more attempt at 'Jew-baiting'.

Of course you do.

"In 1958 the group published a platform, titled 'The Hebrew Manifesto.' It described the 'Hebrew nation' in Israel as a new entity, albeit one linked to the Jewish diaspora, and called for moving beyond outmoded Zionist ideas that were now holding back the nation's development.[6]

"It put forward a program of secularism, complete civic equality between Jews and Arabs, support for anti-colonial movements, and a relationship with the diaspora based on national interest rather than ethnic, religious, or cultural ties."

Now tell us why you prefer ethnic, religious, or cultural ties over nationalistic ones?

Semitic Action - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia]

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Actually, I think I did include that.

The resistance movements took various shapes and positions in the years leading up to WWII, but always came back to Islamic fundamentalist teachings and anti-Zionism (immigration into the region). As a general footprint, organizations that follow the al-Qassam model, have these characteristics in common:

• Feel angry at being isolated or excluded, especially from society at large; or at being deprived of a privilege, immunity, or legal rights.

Rarely do they accept an alternative view that is contrary to theirs and rarely do the accept the consequences for any action they take.

Wow, all that!

It wouldn't have anything to do with the Zionist takeover of Palestine, would it?

Of course not.

(COMMENT)

But I also think that much of the other is as important, as to the "why."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Actually, I think I did include that.

The resistance movements took various shapes and positions in the years leading up to WWII, but always came back to Islamic fundamentalist teachings and anti-Zionism (immigration into the region). As a general footprint, organizations that follow the al-Qassam model, have these characteristics in common:

• Feel angry at being isolated or excluded, especially from society at large; or at being deprived of a privilege, immunity, or legal rights.

Rarely do they accept an alternative view that is contrary to theirs and rarely do the accept the consequences for any action they take.

Wow, all that!

It wouldn't have anything to do with the Zionist takeover of Palestine, would it?

Of course not.

(COMMENT)

But I also think that much of the other is as important, as to the "why."

Most Respectfully,
R

organizations that follow the al-Qassam model, have these characteristics in common:

Link?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I doubt that there will be a open source link to this information. Most organizational profiles are done by government agencies and are protected.

The resistance movements took various shapes and positions in the years leading up to WWII, but always came back to Islamic fundamentalist teachings and anti-Zionism (immigration into the region). As a general footprint, organizations that follow the al-Qassam model, have these characteristics in common:

I wrote this based on my experience on the subject.

• Feel angry at being isolated or excluded, especially from society at large; or at being deprived of a privilege, immunity, or legal rights.
• Feel angry at being in a political environment without the power to effect real change.
• They have a tendency to identify with other victims of the social injustice.
• Feel the need to take action rather than just talking about the problem.
• They don't believe that engaging in violence against the state is not immoral.
• Believe that joining a hostile or aggressive movement offers social and psychological rewards, adventure, camaraderie, and a new sense of identity.

Link?

(COMMENT)

• Feel angry at being isolated or excluded, especially from society at large; or at being deprived of a privilege, immunity, or legal rights.

The al-Qassam followers often speak about "natural rights" of the Palestinian, and the fact that they are ignored by the greater body of the UN. That these rights should be recognized and accepted as the Palestinian interprets them. The cling to the notion of being deprived, and displaced --- not being afforded some rights behind their cause. This idea is rooted in nearly every basic theme the Palestinian put forth; whether we speak of the original reasons they declined the portion of their partition in Resolution 181 (II), or their Declaration of Independence.

Despite the historical injustice done to the Palestinian Arab people in its displacement and in being deprived of the right to self-determination following the adoption of General Assembly resolution 181 (II) of 1947, which partitioned Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish State, that resolution nevertheless continues to attach conditions to international legitimacy that guarantee the Palestinian Arab people the right to sovereignty and national independence.
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The occupation of Palestinian territory and parts of other Arab territory by Israeli forces, the uprooting of the majority of Palestinians and their displacement from their homes by means of organized intimidation, and the subjection of the remainder to occupation, oppression and the destruction of the distinctive features of their national life, are a flagrant violation of the principle of legitimacy and of the Charter of the United Nations and its resolutions recognizing the national rights of the Palestinian people, including the right to return and the right to self-determination, independence and sovereignty over the territory of its homeland.
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The Palestinian Arab people asserts once more its inalienable rights and its demand to exercise those rights in its Palestinian homeland.

SOURCE: http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/6eb54a389e2da6c6852560de0070e392?OpenDocument

• Feel angry at being in a political environment without the power to effect real change.

This is a very common theme, even within this discussion group. How often has it been expressed that only through armed aggression and Jihad can change be effected. It is the entire excuse for resorting to violence; because no other method has proven effective.​

• Feel the need to take action rather than just talking about the problem.

This is tied directly to the previous position (otherwise powerless to effect change). It is the most dangerous and common theme among Palestinians.

"The Palestinian resistance is entitled to expand and diversify its means and tools of resistance; this is a legitimate resistance that defends a defenseless people that has fallen under an oppressive occupation which is supported by the global forces of evil."

SOURCE: ATTACK ISRAEL'S EMBASSIES, INTERESTS, AND OFFICIALS WORLDWIDE -- AND THE INTERESTS OF ITS ALLIES

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.
SOURCE: http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/palestine/pid/12362[

Article Seven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood.

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

SOURCE: The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

• They don't believe that engaging in violence against the state is not immoral.

Again, this is an interlocking concept. And again, it has been expressed many ways in this discussion group by many people. It incorporates the idea that the Palestinian perspective is the only legitimate perspective and that the ends to their objectives justifies the means to achieve that objective.

"No one has the right to condemn the resistance for any of the methods that it adopts, because it knows better than everyone else what is good for it and for its noble objectives."

SOURCE: ATTACK ISRAEL'S EMBASSIES, INTERESTS, AND OFFICIALS WORLDWIDE -- AND THE INTERESTS OF ITS ALLIES

• Believe that joining a hostile or aggressive movement offers social and psychological rewards, adventure, camaraderie, and a new sense of identity.

This is actually not all that uncommon among anti-government type movements. It is the theme of solidarity. However, it can be, as in the case of the Palestinians, taken to extremes in a number of different ways. The first is the cohesive formulation of undergrounds groups such as the al-Qassam Brigade. The second is the associated element as in the case of Mariam Farhat (Palestinian lawmaker known as the “mother of martyrs” after three of her sons died in attacks against Israel); or the Female Fighter: The Palestinian Mother Raises Her Children so She Can Sacrifice Them when They Become Young Men. The third is the false glorification of the Jihadist. Nothing gets more people killed then dying for a deity.

The fourth appeals to the adventurism in many young men. Something about danger. I had it once. I lost it quickly after nearly being history. But it is a very powerful magnet.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Bumberclyde]

Rocco hates arabs, that much is plain to see.

 

[Kondor3]

Rocco hates arabs, that much is plain to see.

Better than being an Arab lover, I'm sure...

Then again, most folks who take-up the Israeli side in this long-standing 'contest' don't hate Arabs...

They just don't like 'em very much, or just don't think very highly of them...

Big difference...

And quite an understandable perception, when compared side-by-side against the vitality and culture and courage and industry of the Jews of Israel...