Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[toastman]

Saying that Israel doesn't exist is for Nazis. That simple.

 

[Coyote]

Thread has been reopened. Please try to discuss the topic and not each other. We are serious about maintaining civil discourse here - further violations will be handled on a case by case basis.

 

[RoccoR]

toastman, et al,

This is not a criticism; but, I'm not sure this is a fair question. To the Western World it is a Catch 22.

Tinmore, what is your definition of Terrorism

(OBSERVATION)

Preamble

Affirming the right of peoples to combat foreign occupation and aggression by whatever means, including armed struggle, in order to liberate their territories and secure their right to self-determination, and independence and to do so in such a manner as to preserve the territorial integrity of each Arab country, of the foregoing being in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and with the Organization's resolutions.​

2. Terrorism

Any act or threat of violence, whatever its motives or purposes, that occurs in the advancement of an individual or collective criminal agenda and seeking to sow panic among people, causing fear by harming them, or placing their lives, liberty or security in danger, or seeking to cause damage to the environment or to public or private installations or property or to occupying or seizing them, or seeking to jeopardize a national resources.​

SOURCE: The Arab Convention for the Suppression of Terrorism, adopted by the Council of Arab Ministers of the Interior and the Council of Arab Ministers of Justice. Cairo, April 1998.

(COMMENT)

The Arabs have their own ideas on terrorism. They specifically made it ambiguous enough that it appears to ruled-out the Palestinian Conflict. They have an agenda to see a continuation of violence localized to that theater. It is an effective means of concentrating hostile elements that might otherwise create roam astray and initiate internal security problems outside the local and regional area. None of the Kingdoms wants that.

Technically, the Arab convention approved of "armed struggle" in the "counter-Occupation Movements," which is not the same as clearing the way for terrorism tactics. It does imply that the "armed struggle" must be IAW the purposes and principles of the Charter and resolutions.

In general, the Arab Convention and the European Union Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism (2002/475/JHA) are not in conflict. The EU is merely a bit more comprehensive and focused.

Article 1: Terrorist offences and fundamental rights and principles

1. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that the intentional acts referred to below in points (a) to (i), as defined as offences under national law, which, given their nature or context, may seriously damage a country or an international organisation where committed with the aim of:

• - seriously intimidating a population, or
  
• - unduly compelling a Government or international organisation to perform or abstain from performing any act, or
  
• - seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation,

shall be deemed to be terrorist offences:

(a) attacks upon a person's life which may cause death;

(b) attacks upon the physical integrity of a person;

(c) kidnapping or hostage taking;

(d) causing extensive destruction to a Government or public facility, a transport system, an infrastructure facility, including an information system, a fixed platform located on the continental shelf, a public place or private property likely to endanger human life or result in major economic loss;

(e) seizure of aircraft, ships or other means of public or goods transport;

(f) manufacture, possession, acquisition, transport, supply or use of weapons, explosives or of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, as well as research into, and development of, biological and chemical weapons;

(g) release of dangerous substances, or causing fires, floods or explosions the effect of which is to endanger human life;

(h) interfering with or disrupting the supply of water, power or any other fundamental natural resource the effect of which is to endanger human life;

(i) threatening to commit any of the acts listed in (a) to (h).​

SOURCE: Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism

This again, comes in conflict with the HAMAS Covenant and Palestinian National Charter. It is also in conflict with a Senior Hamas Official explanation: The Resistance Is Entitled To Attack Israel's Embassies, Interests, And Officials Worldwide - And The Interests Of Its Allies, Headed By The U.S. MEMRI.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[theliq]

toastman, et al,

This is not a criticism; but, I'm not sure this is a fair question. To the Western World it is a Catch 22.

Tinmore, what is your definition of Terrorism

(OBSERVATION)

Preamble

Affirming the right of peoples to combat foreign occupation and aggression by whatever means, including armed struggle, in order to liberate their territories and secure their right to self-determination, and independence and to do so in such a manner as to preserve the territorial integrity of each Arab country, of the foregoing being in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and with the Organization's resolutions.​

2. Terrorism

Any act or threat of violence, whatever its motives or purposes, that occurs in the advancement of an individual or collective criminal agenda and seeking to sow panic among people, causing fear by harming them, or placing their lives, liberty or security in danger, or seeking to cause damage to the environment or to public or private installations or property or to occupying or seizing them, or seeking to jeopardize a national resources.​

SOURCE: The Arab Convention for the Suppression of Terrorism, adopted by the Council of Arab Ministers of the Interior and the Council of Arab Ministers of Justice. Cairo, April 1998.

(COMMENT)

The Arabs have their own ideas on terrorism. They specifically made it ambiguous enough that it appears to ruled-out the Palestinian Conflict. They have an agenda to see a continuation of violence localized to that theater. It is an effective means of concentrating hostile elements that might otherwise create roam astray and initiate internal security problems outside the local and regional area. None of the Kingdoms wants that.

Technically, the Arab convention approved of "armed struggle" in the "counter-Occupation Movements," which is not the same as clearing the way for terrorism tactics. It does imply that the "armed struggle" must be IAW the purposes and principles of the Charter and resolutions.

In general, the Arab Convention and the European Union Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism (2002/475/JHA) are not in conflict. The EU is merely a bit more comprehensive and focused.

Article 1: Terrorist offences and fundamental rights and principles

1. Each Member State shall take the necessary measures to ensure that the intentional acts referred to below in points (a) to (i), as defined as offences under national law, which, given their nature or context, may seriously damage a country or an international organisation where committed with the aim of:

• - seriously intimidating a population, or
  
• - unduly compelling a Government or international organisation to perform or abstain from performing any act, or
  
• - seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation,

shall be deemed to be terrorist offences:

(a) attacks upon a person's life which may cause death;

(b) attacks upon the physical integrity of a person;

(c) kidnapping or hostage taking;

(d) causing extensive destruction to a Government or public facility, a transport system, an infrastructure facility, including an information system, a fixed platform located on the continental shelf, a public place or private property likely to endanger human life or result in major economic loss;

(e) seizure of aircraft, ships or other means of public or goods transport;

(f) manufacture, possession, acquisition, transport, supply or use of weapons, explosives or of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, as well as research into, and development of, biological and chemical weapons;

(g) release of dangerous substances, or causing fires, floods or explosions the effect of which is to endanger human life;

(h) interfering with or disrupting the supply of water, power or any other fundamental natural resource the effect of which is to endanger human life;

(i) threatening to commit any of the acts listed in (a) to (h).​

SOURCE: Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism

This again, comes in conflict with the HAMAS Covenant and Palestinian National Charter. It is also in conflict with a Senior Hamas Official explanation: The Resistance Is Entitled To Attack Israel's Embassies, Interests, And Officials Worldwide - And The Interests Of Its Allies, Headed By The U.S. MEMRI.

Most Respectfully,
R

R,sure you are not talking about Israel.....they have a habit and history of going into other Countries to Murder and Abduct people they wish to eliminate.....???? with no compunction

Anyway your comments are becoming irrelevant as both sides will compromise when peace talks become finalized in the future. steve...let us hope so

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you misread that.

I don't think so.

P F Tinmore, et al,

And here is the circle I was telling you about.

(COMMENT)

You don't recognize Israel as an Independent sovereign state. You still think it is Palestine.

So we end the discussion here; as I said in Post # 686. You are following HAMAS and PNA doctrine.

I think it depends on whether you read and understand the law, or, HAMAS. But any attack on Israel is "international." This is why the Palestinians need contained and quarantined.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, you keep dancing around this issue. From your link:

The "state" of Israel exists in Palestine. The only thing that can change that is a formal agreement between Israel and Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Clear it implies a "Jewish State." It does not imply a "Palestinian State;" nor did it intend to. The Armistice Arrangements were made with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. There was no Armistice with the Palestinians because there was no State of Palestine to have a government.

Nor is it relevant to do so.

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

That said, the right to self determination, the right to sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity predate statehood.

A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state; (2) freely associated with another state or (3) integrated with another state after freely having expressed their will to do so . The definition of realisation of self-determination was confirmed in the Declaration of Friendly Relations .

The right to self-determination - IHL

Until such an agreement is made, Israel will continue to sit inside Palestine on Palestinian land by military force.

(COMMENT)

Israel sits on top of what was known as the Territory under the former Mandate of Palestine. At the time of the 1948 War, the 1967 War and even the 1973 War, there was no "State of Palestine."

"The former Mandate of Palestine" is a meaningless propaganda term. The mandate was assigned to Palestine and had no land or borders of its own. When the mandate left, Palestine was still there inside its international borders.

Now explain how attacks on Israel can be considered international terrorism.

(COMMENT)

Easy, there is a State of Israel. There is no State of Palestine except for the 1988 Declaration made by the PLO. Israel was already established as a State.

Israel is a foreign state that was created inside Palestine by military force. The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from such an entity.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

theliq, et al,

In some respects, I think you are correct; although my expectations are not as high as yours.

R,sure you are not talking about Israel.....they have a habit and history of going into other Countries to Murder and Abduct people they wish to eliminate.....???? with no compunction.

(COMMENT)

There are a number of significant powers that have exercised "Extraordinary Rendition" and "Extraterritorial Jurisdiction." Israel, if they had done such a thing, as is claimed in the post-Massacre Investigation of the Palestinian Terrorist Attack of the 1972 Munich Olympic Team, it is not alone.

Essentially, the US, in the pursuit of justice, ended Osama bin Laden, in the post-911 Investigation, using "Extraterritorial Jurisdiction."

Anyway your comments are becoming irrelevant as both sides will compromise when peace talks become finalized in the future. steve...let us hope so

(COMMENT)

Yes, my expectations are different. I too agree that "IF" the current talks are successful, many of the decades old arguments, finger-pointing, and accusations, will be vacated. In most instances, many of the arguments have been overtaken by events.

I think ALL of us hope that a peaceful solution will be arrived at. But, the entropy that has been behind the conflict for six decades, will not stop or diminish overnight; even after a peaceful solution is agreed upon. "Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason... ... ..."

v/r
R

 

[docmauser1]

The former Mandate of Palestine" is a meaningless propaganda term. The mandate was assigned to Palestine and had no land or borders of its own. When the mandate left, Palestine was still there inside its international borders.

So, who was that sheikh, shakh, emir, pasha, sultan, president, prime-minister of that "state of palestine" to have international borders? That info thoroughly we miss.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Preamble

Affirming the right of peoples to combat foreign occupation and aggression by whatever means, including armed struggle, in order to liberate their territories and secure their right to self-determination, and independence and to do so in such a manner as to preserve the territorial integrity of each Arab country, of the foregoing being in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and with the Organization's resolutions.​

Exactamundo!

This is in complete compliance with international law.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you misread that.

I don't think so.

(COMMENT)

Clear it implies a "Jewish State." It does not imply a "Palestinian State;" nor did it intend to. The Armistice Arrangements were made with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. There was no Armistice with the Palestinians because there was no State of Palestine to have a government.

Nor is it relevant to do so.



That said, the right to self determination, the right to sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity predate statehood.





"The former Mandate of Palestine" is a meaningless propaganda term. The mandate was assigned to Palestine and had no land or borders of its own. When the mandate left, Palestine was still there inside its international borders.

(COMMENT)

Easy, there is a State of Israel. There is no State of Palestine except for the 1988 Declaration made by the PLO. Israel was already established as a State.

Israel is a foreign state that was created inside Palestine by military force. The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from such an entity.

Most Respectfully,
R

Each of your responses has nothing to do with what Rocco said. It's almost as if you're reading another post lol.

All you're doing is repeating the same shit over and over and over and over and over, thinking you're right.
I think it's time you came up with some new Palestinian propaganda.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you misread that.

I don't think so.

(COMMENT)

Clear it implies a "Jewish State." It does not imply a "Palestinian State;" nor did it intend to. The Armistice Arrangements were made with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. There was no Armistice with the Palestinians because there was no State of Palestine to have a government.

Nor is it relevant to do so.

It is relevant.

That said, the right to self determination, the right to sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity predate statehood.





"The former Mandate of Palestine" is a meaningless propaganda term. The mandate was assigned to Palestine and had no land or borders of its own. When the mandate left, Palestine was still there inside its international borders.

How is it a propaganda term ? The British Mandate of Palestine was really there, it really existed. The British won the land over the Ottoman empire during WW1, not the 'Palestinians'. They merely owned land and lived there, but had no sovereignty over their land.

(COMMENT)

Easy, there is a State of Israel. There is no State of Palestine except for the 1988 Declaration made by the PLO. Israel was already established as a State.

Israel is a foreign state that was created inside Palestine by military force. The Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from such an entity.

Show me a link that says 'Israel is a foreign state'. That makes no sense at all. Israel is a globally recognized country and full member of the U.N . Weather you like it or not , Israel is a real country that really exists.
As for the second sentence, spoken like a true Palestinian propagandist . They sure have an odd way of defending themselves.

 

[docmauser1]

Affirming the right of peoples to combat foreign occupation and aggression by whatever means, including armed struggle, in order to liberate their territories and secure their right to self-determination, and independence and to do so in such a manner as to preserve the territorial integrity of each Arab country, of the foregoing being in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and with the Organization's resolutions.​

Exactamundo! This is in complete compliance with international law.

So, who was that sheikh, shakh, emir, pasha, sultan, president, prime-minister of that "state of palestine" to liberate their territories to have territorial integrity? That info exactamundo thoroughly we miss.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Show me a link that says 'Israel is a foreign state'.

Israel was declared inside Palestinian territory by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization. Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants. The entire planned population were foreign settlers who were imported by the Zionists to populate their planned state.

If you do not agree, show me where I am wrong.

 

[toastman]

Show me a link that says 'Israel is a foreign state'.

Israel was declared inside Palestinian territory by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization. Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants. The entire planned population were foreign settlers who were imported by the Zionists to populate their planned state.

If you do not agree, show me where I am wrong.

Ok, show me where it says because of that, Israel is a foreign country.

YOU need to show me a link that suggest this

 

[P F Tinmore]

Show me a link that says 'Israel is a foreign state'.

Israel was declared inside Palestinian territory by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization. Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants. The entire planned population were foreign settlers who were imported by the Zionists to populate their planned state.

If you do not agree, show me where I am wrong.

Ok, show me where it says because of that, Israel is a foreign country.

YOU need to show me a link that suggest this

Do your own homework. It is all a matter of history. Look it up.

 

[toastman]

Figures, you have no link. You based your claim on research you have done. You came up with the conclusion. It is your opinion, not a fact.
If Israel is a foreign country (which to me makes no sense), then I would imagine there would be prerequisites for them to be one. But with no link to back it up, it's just your opinion.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Figures, you have no link. You based your claim on research you have done. You came up with the conclusion. It is your opinion, not a fact.
If Israel is a foreign country (which to me makes no sense), then I would imagine there would be prerequisites for them to be one. But with no link to back it up, it's just your opinion.

When I refute a post, I look up my own material.

You are an adult. You do the same. It is not my job to educate you.

 

[toastman]

Figures, you have no link. You based your claim on research you have done. You came up with the conclusion. It is your opinion, not a fact.
If Israel is a foreign country (which to me makes no sense), then I would imagine there would be prerequisites for them to be one. But with no link to back it up, it's just your opinion.

When I refute a post, I look up my own material.

You are an adult. You do the same. It is not my job to educate you.

All I did was ask for a link to back up your claim. You do it all the time

 

[P F Tinmore]

Figures, you have no link. You based your claim on research you have done. You came up with the conclusion. It is your opinion, not a fact.
If Israel is a foreign country (which to me makes no sense), then I would imagine there would be prerequisites for them to be one. But with no link to back it up, it's just your opinion.

When I refute a post, I look up my own material.

You are an adult. You do the same. It is not my job to educate you.

All I did was ask for a link to back up your claim. You do it all the time

David Ben-Gurion, the Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization[2][3] and the chairman of the Jewish Agency for Palestine,[4] declared the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.[5]

Israeli Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1929, the Jewish Agency for Palestine was officially created by the 16th Zionist Congress, held in Zurich, Switzerland.

Jewish Agency for Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Learn to use Google. Geesh!

 

[docmauser1]

Show me a link that says 'Israel is a foreign state'.

Israel was declared inside Palestinian territory by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

So, who was that sheikh, shakh, emir, pasha, sultan, president, prime-minister of that "state of palestine" to have territory as its own? That info exactamundo thoroughly we miss.

Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants. The entire planned population were foreign settlers who were imported by the Zionists to populate their planned state.

"So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population." Winnie Churchill.
Major immigrant arab settlers calling others settlers, of course.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Show me a link that says 'Israel is a foreign state'.

Israel was declared inside Palestinian territory by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

So, who was that sheikh, shakh, emir, pasha, sultan, president, prime-minister of that "state of palestine" to have territory as its own? That info exactamundo thoroughly we miss.

Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants. The entire planned population were foreign settlers who were imported by the Zionists to populate their planned state.

"So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population." Winnie Churchill.
Major immigrant arab settlers calling others settlers, of course.

The Arab population declined from about 93% at the turn of the century to about 65% by 1948.

Old Winney was full of shit.

After WWII the voters soundly bounced his dumb ass.