Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[Hoffstra]

That is an excellent point, and, sometimes, there is no good answer.

With respect to those times post-WWII when there were forcible en masse population shifts - ethnic Germans expelled from the Sudentenland in Czechoslovakia and East Prussia in Poland, Hindus expelled from Pakistan and Muslims expelled from India, etc...

Room was found in the Destination Country even though there was some very real loss of life and considerable hardship associated with the act - hardships that were eventually overcome as the New Normal crystallized in those places...

If that sort of thing unfolded with respect to the Palestinians, I suspect those expelled would be split-up and scattered between Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, for starters, and let them fend for themselves - supplied with food and water and compensation money - once they're safely across the border, to let their ethnic brethren and co-religionists worry about them from that point forward, and putting the burden and onus upon those brethren, should they fail to take-in the refugees and to care for them on humanitarian grounds, once the refugees cross onto foreign soil of those brethren.

It's a nasty business alright, even when a population (or some segment thereof) does NOT resist, never mind when some segment DOES, and is subsequently defeated and neutralized, but...

If it is a choice between kicking out your hostile neighbors versus making your children and grandchildren safe, and you have that power, well, the aggressive neighbors lose every time, in virtually every scenario, in virtually every corner of the world, in virtually every Age of Man, since Man first climbed down from the trees, and extending all the way to within the range of living memory, by Poles and Czechs and Indians and Pakistanis.

In us-or-them situations... choosing your own over 'the others'... this is the purest and most ancient of logic, I'm afraid, in the context of clashes of civilizations and populations.

And it would not surprise me in the least if we see such a thing unfolding, if this Last Chance round of talks collapses, which I believe will probably happen.

We like to kid ourselves that such things can no longer happen because we live in Modern Times.

Keep in mind that each time in the past that such things have happened, the people involved were ALSO living in Modern Times, from their own perspective.

Ask the ethnic Germans and the Hindus and the Muslims I mentioned who were forcibly relocated in their hundreds of thousands and in their millions AFTER WWII - under Allied or friendly control - many of whom are still alive today.

with all due respect, your ideas and solutions are insane.

I now question your sanity. No sane person would suggest what you are suggesting.

Israel and the Jews are not as suicidal as you make them out to be. I find your suggestion that they are, to be terribly anti-Semitic.

 

[Kondor3]

"...with all due respect, your ideas and solutions are insane. I now question your sanity. No sane person would suggest what you are suggesting. Israel and the Jews are not as suicidal as you make them out to be. I find your suggestion that they are, to be terribly anti-Semitic."

You are entitled to your opinion; I will not waste keystrokes trying to change your mind.

I will merely observe that you are highly partisan in favor of the Palestinians and that you may be too young or conventional or hopeful or naive to understand that such things can and do happen often enough, as history measures time.

I make no proposals nor suggestions... nor have I said that I concur in whole or in part with such ideas... I am merely predicting the future... and saying that I understand it... indulging in a useful and alarming Crystal Ball exercise.

You also appear to be suffering from Sugar Plum Visions of the One-Billion-Man Jihad against Israel in the event that these latest (final) talks fail and should Israel feel that the time had finally come to break the deadlock in such a fashion.

If Israel does, indeed, make such a move in future, you are destined to be gravely disappointed concerning the effectiveness of the worldwide Muslim military reaction.

As evidenced by your failure to cite a credible Arab power (country, or coalition) capable of annihilating Israel, while continually protesting that such a thing will occur.

No, such a path would not be suicidal; in fact, they are sufficiently strong vis a vis the Arab world that they could Evict and Expel the Palestinians with impunity, and be little-the-worse for wear at the end of the sequence.

Sugar-Plum Visions of Jihad do not win military victories nor avenge expelled co-religionists.

Not to worry, however.

We aren't there just yet, and there still remains at least some chance that it will not come to that.

 

[RoccoR]

Hoffstra, et al,

This is because there is no such plan or program for "ethnic cleansing." There is no reason to believe that Israel is contemplating any such thing. It is out of the question.

Sickening how Jews, descendents of Holocaust victims and survivors, can actually contemplate committing ethnic cleansing against millions of people.

(COMMENT)

Without regard to the outcome of the Talks.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hoffstra]

You are entitled to your opinion; I will not waste keystrokes trying to change your mind.

I will merely observe that you are highly partisan in favor of the Palestinians and that you may be too young or conventional or hopeful or naive to understand that such things can and do happen often enough, as history measures time.

I make no proposals or suggestions... nor have I said that I concur in whole or in part with such ideas... I am merely predicting the future... and saying that I understand it... indulging in a useful and alarming Crystal Ball exercise.

You also appear to be suffering from Sugar Plum Visions of the One-Billion-Man Jihad against Israel in the event that these latest (final) talks fail and should Israel feel that the time had finally come to break the deadlock in such a fashion.

If Israel does, indeed, make such a move in future, you are destined to be gravely disappointed concerning the effectiveness of the worldwide Muslim military reaction.

As evidenced by your failure to cite a credible Arab power (country, or coalition) capable of annihilating Israel, while continually protesting that such a thing will occur.

Not to worry, however.

We aren't there just yet, and there still remains at least some chance that it will not come to that.

with all due respect to your insane ideas and personality, Pakistan has nuclear weapons and would surely use them to destroy the State of Israel if they attempt to commit ethnic cleansing and then genocide against millions of their fellow Muslims.

 

[MHunterB]

...It's entirely possible (the Palestinians had better hope likely) that I'm wrong, but there is a strong case to be made for jumping through the present Window of Opportunity for Israel, soon after The Talks fail, as I believe they will.

As I said before... there will be no Arab Cavalry coming over the hill to the rescue of the Palestinians, this time.

But, of course, time will tell about that, as well.

I think I've pretty-much beaten that scenario into the ground as an Introductory Concept Piece, but it was worth the exercise.

I pray, for the existence of Medinat Yisrael, that you are wrong.

If your sick fantasies pan out, more than 6 million Jews will die a horrible death.

I do not believe you are sincere, Hoffy - not at all. I think you feel exactly the opposite about what you've posted above.

 

[Kondor3]

You are entitled to your opinion; I will not waste keystrokes trying to change your mind.

I will merely observe that you are highly partisan in favor of the Palestinians and that you may be too young or conventional or hopeful or naive to understand that such things can and do happen often enough, as history measures time.

I make no proposals or suggestions... nor have I said that I concur in whole or in part with such ideas... I am merely predicting the future... and saying that I understand it... indulging in a useful and alarming Crystal Ball exercise.

You also appear to be suffering from Sugar Plum Visions of the One-Billion-Man Jihad against Israel in the event that these latest (final) talks fail and should Israel feel that the time had finally come to break the deadlock in such a fashion.

If Israel does, indeed, make such a move in future, you are destined to be gravely disappointed concerning the effectiveness of the worldwide Muslim military reaction.

As evidenced by your failure to cite a credible Arab power (country, or coalition) capable of annihilating Israel, while continually protesting that such a thing will occur.

Not to worry, however.

We aren't there just yet, and there still remains at least some chance that it will not come to that.

with all due respect to your insane ideas and personality, Pakistan has nuclear weapons and would surely use them to destroy the State of Israel if they attempt to commit ethnic cleansing and then genocide against millions of their fellow Muslims.

Ahhhh, and now we begin the long slide down the slippery slope of ad hominem attack...

Repeated baiting noted... bait not taken.

Now, as to Pakistan...

Pakistan is a long way from Israel.

For the most part, the Pakistanis are a sane, rational, pragmatic people.

Israel has a much larger nuclear arsenal than does Pakistan.

Israel's delivery systems are superior to those of Pakistan.

The Pakistanis cannot afford to expend part of their nuclear munitions and lose ground vis a vis India.

Pakistan will not risk an un-winnable nuclear war with the United States by attacking Israel.

Nobody is 'going nuclear' to avenge a couple of million pain-in-the-ass Palestinians who have overplayed their hand and gotten themselves kicked out for good.

Not gonna happen.

Next slide, please.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Hoffstra, et al,

I had to really think about this one.

Hoffstra is thinking a bit forward here.

Eventually the two state solution will become impossible, and the Palestinians will dismantle the PA and all entities of Palestinian self-rule, and that will put the welfare and safety of the Palestinian people in the West Bank once again under the full responsibility of Israel.

(CONSEQUENCES)

• What if the Palestinian Authority Collapses?
  
  
  Hamas, recognizing the implications of PLO failure to maintain the PA, would seek to gain adherents for its leadership on the West Bank and to sabotage attempts to maintain stability. (On the other hand, it would have to explain to Gazans why financial transfers from the West Bank-based PA had ceased, thereby exacerbating Gaza's economic situation.) Extremist settlers might view the situation as an invitation for a land-grab. Either or both of these developments could oblige the Israel Defense Forces to expand their reach back into all of Area A: Palestinian cities and towns. The Israeli peace camp would justifiably trumpet the government's failure to prevent the PA's collapse and would seek new Israeli elections or heightened international intervention.
  
  Calls would emerge from the Israeli far right and post-Zionist far left and from Palestinians who have lost hope for a two-state solution for Israel to annex the territory. The Palestinians and the post-Zionists would demand full citizenship rights for West Bank Palestinians, thereby jeopardizing Israel's claim to be a Jewish state. The far right would insist on some sort of distinction between Palestinian "personal rights" and Jewish "citizenship rights"--meaning, in effect, apartheid.
  
  Meanwhile, an increasingly Islamist Arab world would find plenty in this situation to accuse Israel of. So would the US and Europe, where voices would be heard suggesting that the emerging crisis offered an opportunity to adopt more forceful policies in favor of two states and against the settlements.​
• Kerry: Collapse of Palestinian Authority Would be Worse for Israel and US
  
  
  "If that experiment is allowed to fail, ask yourselves: What will replace it? What will happen if the Palestinian economy implodes? If the Palestinian security forces dissolve? If the Palestinian Authority fails? Surely something much worse for Israel's interests and for America's and for the region," he said.
  
  Kerry says the failure of the current Palestinian leadership could bring about the same kind of extremism in the West Bank that Israelis are facing from Hamas in Gaza and from Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.​

(OBSERVATION)

As in the past, when the Palestinian Authority has been strapped for cash, someone (or several) have always stepped-in to inject monetary assistance; not that they want to, but so no alternative. Their individual reasons for doing so may be different, but the outcome is the same.

• Donors may halt aid to Palestinian Authority if no progress is made in peace talks

"The donors will not be ready to keep funding Palestinian state-building much longer if we do not see a political solution on the horizon," said Eide.

"I think this is important for the Palestinians to know...the comfort of an internationally subsidised state-building endeavour may be wrong," Eide told the newspaper. "And I think that it is important for some people on the Israeli side...to know that this cannot continue forever."

SOURCE: Middle East Monitor (MEM) Thursday, 29 August 2013

(COMMENT)

This is one of those cases where everyone has painted themselves into a corner.

There is too much resting on the outcome of the current Peace Negotiations. The US, having jump-started the talks, has become the deep pocketed de-facto guarantor. We will have to keep the Palestinian Authority solvent and functioning. Otherwise, the entire Arab World is going to blame America for the collapse. And, if the collapse is allowed to happen, what will fill the void?

If Israel remains the "Occupation Authority" for both Gaza and the West Bank, that is going to insure an insurgency the likes of which would rival the problems faced in post-War Iraq. Nobody wants that; especially the Israelis.

Jordan might be persuaded to take the West Bank back, but then that puts Israeli security back to the pre-1967 conditions. And it is unlikely that Egypt wants another failed region like the Gaza Strip, unless they get major assistance with the Levant Gas Field.

Clearly, it will be chaos for a bit. And in chaos, both insurgents and terrorists have the advantage.

So, from the perspective of many, the current peace negotiations might be described as one of those situations where "failure is not an option."

Most Respectfully,
R

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-b6Y_ojOSs]Israel palestine: Is the one state solution the only solution? - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Kondor3]

Hoffstra, et al,

This is because there is no such plan or program for "ethnic cleansing." There is no reason to believe that Israel is contemplating any such thing. It is out of the question.

Sickening how Jews, descendents of Holocaust victims and survivors, can actually contemplate committing ethnic cleansing against millions of people.

(COMMENT)

Without regard to the outcome of the Talks.

Most Respectfully,
R

At Hoffstra: Who says the descendants of Holocaust victims are planning to Evict and Expel the Palestinians? Yet.

At Rocco: I agree, either that no such plan exists, or that it is not yet been pulled from the archives, dusted-off, and re-examined.

At Rocco: I'm sure that any Draconian Action that we might ever see out of the Israelis would, indeed, be contingent upon the failure of the latest round of talks.

At Rocco: What happens if the latest round of talks DO fail, and the Israelis keep taking rocket-hits against their population centers? I'm pretty sure that they've just about 'had it' with such attacks.

 

[Hoffstra]

Ahhhh, and now we begin the long slide down the slippery slope of ad hominem attack...

Repeated baiting noted... bait not taken.

Now, as to Pakistan...

Pakistan is a long way from Israel.

For the most part, the Pakistanis are a sane, rational, pragmatic people.

Israel has a much larger nuclear arsenal than does Pakistan.

Israel's delivery systems are superior to those of Pakistan.

The Pakistanis cannot afford to expend part of their nuclear munitions and lose ground vis a vis India.

Pakistan will not risk an un-winnable nuclear war with the United States by attacking Israel.

Nobody is 'going nuclear' to avenge a couple of million pain-in-the-ass Palestinians who have overplayed their hand and gotten themselves kicked out for good.

Not gonna happen.

Next slide, please.

You think the Muslims won't avenge the deaths of millions of their brethren with a nuclear strike on Israel?

You're more insane than I thought.

 

[Kondor3]

Ahhhh, and now we begin the long slide down the slippery slope of ad hominem attack...

Repeated baiting noted... bait not taken.

Now, as to Pakistan...

Pakistan is a long way from Israel.

For the most part, the Pakistanis are a sane, rational, pragmatic people.

Israel has a much larger nuclear arsenal than does Pakistan.

Israel's delivery systems are superior to those of Pakistan.

The Pakistanis cannot afford to expend part of their nuclear munitions and lose ground vis a vis India.

Pakistan will not risk an un-winnable nuclear war with the United States by attacking Israel.

Nobody is 'going nuclear' to avenge a couple of million pain-in-the-ass Palestinians who have overplayed their hand and gotten themselves kicked out for good.

Not gonna happen.

Next slide, please.

You think the Muslims won't avenge the deaths of millions of their brethren with a nuclear strike on Israel?

You're more insane than I thought.

If the Israelis ever DO resort to Evicting and Expelling the Palestinians, whatever makes you think that there will be millions of Palestinian dead?

If it comes to that, it will be a couple of thousand dead Hamas and Hezbollah, some collateral civilian casualties, and millions of survivors, most likely a 99-point-something-percent survival rate - packed-up, paid-off, and packed-off to distant lands, to begin new lives elsewhere.

Every people under siege (most recently, the Berliners) claim that every man, woman and child - in their millions - will be on the barricades to stand against The Enemy, and bravely go down fighting.

In the case of the Palestinians and Hamas - in truth, very few would probably die - a few thousand irregulars here-and-there, quickly and easily overwhelmed once the gloves come off and the IDF is no longer operating under restrictions - but many fighters would end-up surrendering, and the vast majority of the civilian population would come out of that shaken and scared but very much alive.

There would be no 'millions of Muslim dead' to avenge.

You speak very bravely - like most young Berliners probably did in April 1945 - but, in the end, after starting-out bravely and strong, the Berliners sputtered out quickly (in a fortnight or so) and, in the case of the Palestinians, they are far worse armed - vis a vis the IDF - than the remnants of the Werhmacht and Volkssturm militia were, in going up against the might of the Red Army... Hamas would not get kill-ratios anywhere near those achieved by Berliners towards the end of that older conflict.

No... if it comes to that, we are talking about Moving Day in the Wild West, accompanied by some considerable gun-play, rather than Armageddon; brave words notwithstanding.

Oh, and, to directly answer your question.

No - I do NOT believe that the Muslims would 'go nuclear' against Israel under any circumstance other than to repel invasion of their own national soil.

Not unless they want Israel to turn their cities into sheets of glass.

The Palestinians simply do not mean THAT much to ANY Muslim-Arab country with even marginally sane leadership, such as that abortion of an Islamic theocracy that we call 'Iran'.

There is no Arab Cavalry coming over the hill to the rescue, if it ever comes to that.

But here we are, repeating ourselves again, with variations.

How boring.

 

[RoccoR]

Kondor3, et al,

Even if talks fail, there are still options.

Hoffstra, et al,

This is because there is no such plan or program for "ethnic cleansing." There is no reason to believe that Israel is contemplating any such thing. It is out of the question.

Sickening how Jews, descendents of Holocaust victims and survivors, can actually contemplate committing ethnic cleansing against millions of people.

(COMMENT)

Without regard to the outcome of the Talks.

Most Respectfully,
R

At Hoffstra: Who says the descendants of Holocaust victims are planning to Evict and Expel the Palestinians? Yet.

At Rocco: I agree, either that no such plan exists, or that it is not yet been pulled from the archives, dusted-off, and re-examined.

At Rocco: I'm sure that any Draconian Action that we might ever see out of the Israelis would, indeed, be contingent upon the failure of the latest round of talks.

At Rocco: What happens if the latest round of talks DO fail, and the Israelis keep taking rocket-hits against their population centers?

(COMMENT)

Currently, the State of Palestine (SoP), the remainder of the former Mandate of Palestine, is remaining solvent by virtue of the US and other contributors to the cause.

Abrams believes that the very idea Eide expressed, that the aid to the Palestinians may be halted if progress is not made on the diplomatic front, is counterproductive and dangerous. Abrams believes that the funding of state-building is more important than “leaping to final status agreements.” He also believes that the international community has not “met the challenge of providing adequate political and financial support for state-building.”

“Norway is disbursing the whole amount of its budget support to Palestine for 2013 now because Palestinian public sector employees urgently need to be paid again,” said Minister of Foreign Affairs Espen Barth Eide. Norway’s support is helping to provide education, health services and security to the Palestinian people.

The budget support provided by Norway, which amounts to USD 43 million, will be used to build and run public institutions in Palestine. These funds are channelled through the World Bank, which ensures that they are used in accordance with the Palestinians’ own development and reform plans, as well as the World Bank’s strict requirements.

Norway chairs the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee (AHLC), which brings together the main donors and coordinates support to the Palestinian Authority. The AHLC will meet again in the middle of March to discuss the financial difficulties that the Palestinians are facing. Donors, the Palestinians and the Israelis must cooperate on effective measures.

“Palestine cannot remain dependent on support from donors for ever. However, a sustainable Palestinian economy cannot be achieved unless progress is made in the political negotiations on ending the occupation and unless the Palestinians gain control of their own resources.

“The current crisis means that it is particularly important that all donors provide substantial contributions in 2013, and I urge all donors to disburse their budget support as early in the year as possible,” said Mr Eide.

SOURCE: Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs

SOURCE: Corruption and The Debate Over Funding the Palestinian Authority

There are (sort of) two lines of thought expressed here.

• The first is that the International Community cannot afford to allow the SoP to monetarily collapse, no matter the outcome of the current Peace Talks [which I discussed in the Post #130 (and others) on the need for a Comprehensive Agreement].
• The second thought here is a bit tilted in Israeli favor. It suggests that if the SoP does not cooperate in the successful accomplishment of a Comprehensive Peace Agreement, that it will have an adverse impact on future international funding to keep the SoP solvent and operating.

Personal Note: To suggest that Palestine will face adverse monetary funding consequences should Peace Talks fail will be viewed in the Middle East as coercion. This is the "counterproductive and dangerous" part that Elliot Abrams was addressing.​

The international community (in the eyes of the Arabs) caused the problem; and it will be up to the international community to pick-up the pieces and rebuild SoP to 21st Century Standards. It will require a comprehensive nation building program with a US hands-off component to it. Israel will have to withdraw from the occupied territories and establish viable relocations communities for the displaced. In the mean time, in SoP, a new housing and resource management system will be needed to accommodate refugees. The international community will have to initiate a nation building program the likes of has not been seen since Dubai.

The solution is not totally dependent on the outcome of the talks.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Bloodrock44]

Over 1300 responses and you haven't settled this yet? OK, I'm going to settle it once and for all. The answer is no, Israel is not the same as South Africa. Two different countries with two different cultures. And Georgie hasn't been to either country where he form an opinion. And Stormfront is not a good reference. Case closed. Now move on with your lives. Nothing to see here.

 

[georgephillip]

Over 1300 responses and you haven't settled this yet? OK, I'm going to settle it once and for all. The answer is no, Israel is not the same as South Africa. Two different countries with two different cultures. And Georgie hasn't been to either country where he form an opinion. And Stormfront is not a good reference. Case closed. Now move on with your lives. Nothing to see here.

Back to Square One, are we?

"The question is not 'Is Israel the same as South Africa?'
It is 'do Israel's actions meet the international definition of what apartheid is?'

The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity 'committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.'"

Is Israel an Apartheid State?

The last time we were at this point the definition of the term "race" helped obfuscate the facts on the ground in Palestine. Let's assume the haters on both sides, Jew and Arab, are (mistakenly) applying the term "race" to the source of their hatred and ask if Jews have "institutionalized (a) regime of systematic oppression and domination over the Arabs of Palestine?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Paul, let's be (at least a little bit) honest here.

One thing that is consistent among Israel supporters. They refuse to learn anything.

(COMMENT)

I think that a vast majority of your commentary and opinions are read here. I believe that a vast majority of sherrimunnerlyn's (where ever she has gone) commentaries and opinions were read here. In fact, I think that nearly every anti-Israel (or pro-Palestinian) commentary is given credit where credit is due.

Just as neither side of the Arab-Israeli conflict is perfectly correct in everything they have done, --- so it is with the discussion here --- and the presentations.

Learning is as much dependent on the presentation of the facts as it is in the expression of confidence in the material presented. (1) When that material is tainted, it has an impact on future presentations and the confidence that it holds. And I will be honest, in that I often try not to let the pro-Palestinian propaganda you often present taint the salient facts you present later; but, it is hard. (2)AND, I often find it difficult to work through the frivolous points you make (like on the Map issue and borders/boundaries); that sidetrack the discussion.

(1) Do you have some examples? I don't know what you mean.

(2) These are not frivolous points at all. These are the root of the conflict.

Israel says that Israel is Israel and the Palestinians attack Israel because they "hate Jews." Therefore all Israeli attacks on the Palestinians are self defense. This is the currently popular narrative.

The Palestinians say that Israel is Israeli occupied Palestine and they have the right to attack and defend themselves from the occupation. Everything I have found shows that the Palestinians are correct.

If Israel is correct, the present narrative is true.

If the Palestinians are correct, the present narrative is a lie.

The suggestion that (in general) the pro-Israel component of the discussion "refuse to learn" is simply inaccurate. When you mix some minor fact with some significant propaganda - the impact of the propaganda tends to overshadow the relevant fact you present. Don't mix the two (propaganda and fact). We are all quite capable of "learning" and are quite interested in what you have to say, if you would just present the facts or point of discussion in a logical order and a coherent way.

This was a reference to a particular incident. I stated that the native Palestinian Jews were opposed to a Jewish state. I was asked to prove my point.

I posted a quote from Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948).

I was criticized for not posting a reliable source.

So I posted a youtube of some orthodox Jews discussing the issue. He refused to view the video. Thus my response.

It is common to somehow blow off any information posted.

Finally, don't confuse analysis and disagreement with a "refuse to learn" mind set. I have learned that the pro-Palestinian movement has elements within it that firmly believe that Palestine was sovereign to the Arab Palestinian; with some thinking it happened at the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and with some that believe it was sovereign with the end of the British Mandate. Yes, I have learned this. But I don't agree with either version. And that is not the same thing as "refuse to learn."

I recommend that you reassess that perception of your opinion (refuse to learn). I also recommend that you adjust your dependence on the use of inflammatory language (apartheid, racism, nazi, etc) as it changes the confidence interval in the presentation of your commentary and opinion. As an example, when I use the words "insurgent" or "terrorism" --- I use them based on the basis that either the organization, event or action fits a definition or description in a professional guide, manual, publication, law, etc, and not some layman's dictionary. I don't hunt for a specific interpretation that I can cherry-pick to fit the argument. Since you were in South Africa in the pre-Mandela era, you know very damn well that "apartheid" was something totally different from the conditions and relations that exist between the non-Israel and Israel. So, when we talk about "learning" --- let's apply it equally to both sides.

First off, I don't use the term Nazi.

How about all that Israeli name calling?

Just My Opinion, Very Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Paul, let's be (at least a little bit) honest here.

One thing that is consistent among Israel supporters. They refuse to learn anything.

(COMMENT)

I think that a vast majority of your commentary and opinions are read here. I believe that a vast majority of sherrimunnerlyn's (where ever she has gone) commentaries and opinions were read here. In fact, I think that nearly every anti-Israel (or pro-Palestinian) commentary is given credit where credit is due.

Just as neither side of the Arab-Israeli conflict is perfectly correct in everything they have done, --- so it is with the discussion here --- and the presentations.

Learning is as much dependent on the presentation of the facts as it is in the expression of confidence in the material presented. (1) When that material is tainted, it has an impact on future presentations and the confidence that it holds. And I will be honest, in that I often try not to let the pro-Palestinian propaganda you often present taint the salient facts you present later; but, it is hard. (2)AND, I often find it difficult to work through the frivolous points you make (like on the Map issue and borders/boundaries); that sidetrack the discussion.

(1) Do you have some examples? I don't know what you mean.

(2) These are not frivolous points at all. These are the root of the conflict.

Israel says that Israel is Israel and the Palestinians attack Israel because they "hate Jews." Therefore all Israeli attacks on the Palestinians are self defense. This is the currently popular narrative.

The Palestinians say that Israel is Israeli occupied Palestine and they have the right to attack and defend themselves from the occupation. Everything I have found shows that the Palestinians are correct.

If Israel is correct, the present narrative is true.

If the Palestinians are correct, the present narrative is a lie.



This was a reference to a particular incident. I stated that the native Palestinian Jews were opposed to a Jewish state. I was asked to prove my point.

I posted a quote from Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948).

I was criticized for not posting a reliable source.

So I posted a youtube of some orthodox Jews discussing the issue. He refused to view the video. Thus my response.

It is common to somehow blow off any information posted.

Finally, don't confuse analysis and disagreement with a "refuse to learn" mind set. I have learned that the pro-Palestinian movement has elements within it that firmly believe that Palestine was sovereign to the Arab Palestinian; with some thinking it happened at the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and with some that believe it was sovereign with the end of the British Mandate. Yes, I have learned this. But I don't agree with either version. And that is not the same thing as "refuse to learn."

I recommend that you reassess that perception of your opinion (refuse to learn). I also recommend that you adjust your dependence on the use of inflammatory language (apartheid, racism, nazi, etc) as it changes the confidence interval in the presentation of your commentary and opinion. As an example, when I use the words "insurgent" or "terrorism" --- I use them based on the basis that either the organization, event or action fits a definition or description in a professional guide, manual, publication, law, etc, and not some layman's dictionary. I don't hunt for a specific interpretation that I can cherry-pick to fit the argument. Since you were in South Africa in the pre-Mandela era, you know very damn well that "apartheid" was something totally different from the conditions and relations that exist between the non-Israel and Israel. So, when we talk about "learning" --- let's apply it equally to both sides.

First off, I don't use the term Nazi.

How about all that Israeli name calling?

Just My Opinion, Very Respectfully,
R

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

 

[Kondor3]

"...your violent Dogma."

I spout no dogma.

I show you one likely future.

Yeah only your own....this in itself bars you from any input. Disqualified by your own mouth

You may continue to delude yourself that draconian action like that (Eviction and Expulsion) has not been seriously considered in times past, or that the Israeli government and general staff do not have operational plans to undertake such a sweeping action, or that they will hesitate to pull-up those plans from the archives and dust them off and look at them again, should they feel sufficiently motivated or sufficiently threatened in order to do so.

Many of us - good people, all - cannot bring themselves to believe that forcible en masse eviction and deportation is possible, and, based on past history, I really cannot blame anyone for continuing to hold to such mainstream perceptions. I really cannot.

But we, in the comfort of our armchairs here in the US, cannot possibly appreciate what it is like to be under rocket-attack day-in, day-out, for years-on-end, with a viscerally and mortally hostile population within easy grocery-store-run driving distance of our homes, ready to kill us, our children and grandchildren any time we are foolish enough to wander within their reach.

The Palestinians have sworn to destroy Israel and to drown the Jews in the sea and to establish Palestine 'from river to sea' in the process.

Even a two-state solution is merely a stopping-point along the way to this ultimate goal.

Settle for a two-state solution today and you give the Palestinians a larger and seemingly more legitimate platform from which to build military strength and to launch Stage II of their long-term multi-generational agenda, later; genocide, disguised as legitimate warfare between nations.

To allow this would be suicidal madness on the part of Israel; strategically speaking.

Better to eliminate the threat, than to appease and grant concessions that will only be turned against Israel within a decade or two, or a generation at best.

The Muslim-Arab neighbors of Israel have never been weaker than they are now, in the entire 65-year-long history of the State of Israel.

There is nobody in the region capable of standing against them on the battlefield in order to stop them from Evicting and Expelling the Palestinians, should they choose to do so.

Nobody.

Consquently, I see the danger to the Palestinians as far greater at this moment in time - when their traditional rescue-neighbors are at their weakest - than ever before since 1948.

And, frankly, and despite the beliefs of several good and intelligent folk wandering about this and similar threads, I do not believe that the so-called International Community will do anything effective to either stop nor reverse any such en masse population shift.

Especially in light of Israel's formidable nuclear arsenal.

The US will provide political cover at the UN Security Council until it is too late to have any negative effect, and then, for showmanship's sake, pretend a more disapproving stance, once we are approaching the status of fait accompli.

From the Israeli perspective, Evict-and-Expel is the only logical thing to do, looking at the Big Picture, and thinking in multi-generational terms.

A two-state solution is both a dead-end and slow suicide for Israel, as the Palestinians would use their New Country as a staging area for building-up their own and 'allied' military assets for a Death Blow Strke against Israel.

The Israelis cannot tolerate this hostile presence amongst them for much longer without overreacting and going-in and slaughtering the lot; better to kick 'em out than to kill 'em.

The English expelled the Jews, in medieval times.

The French expelled the Jews, in medieval times.

The Germans expelled the Jews, in medieval times.

The Spaniards expelled the Jews, in Renaissance times.

The Russians expelled the Jews, locally and regionally, repeatedly, in the past two centuries.

The Arabs expelled the Jews from many Muslim countries in the 1948-1970 timeframe.

So, for once, the Jews might end-up expelling others, if conditions remain unchanged.

Given that the Poles and Czechs and Indians and Pakistanis and Arabs have all expelled 'undesirable' populations en masse within living memory, this remains a distinct possibility.

If the Jews reach this point, the rest of the world will squawk and piss and moan, and there will be boycotts and sanctions and such, and a few folks will rattle sabers, but, as it becomes clear that this was a population shift rather than a slaughtering of innocents, passions will quickly cool - a brief period of wrist-slapping (small price to pay for eliminating such mortal danger and achieving Eretz Yisrael in its entirety) - and then the world will begin to forget - with much of the rest of the world breathing a sigh of relief that the long, pain-in-the-ass squabble over a tiny sliver of Middle East land, is finally over, as Jordan and Lebanon and Syria successfully assimilate their newly-arrived ethnic brethren and co-religionists, aided by Israel itself, and the international community.

This is not fantasy nor delusion nor sickness nor right nor wrong.

This is merely cold, calculating, dispassionate, logical speculation, based upon conditions as they now present themselves to us, and others, as they are likely to play-out.

Your Palestinian buddies had better pray to Allah that I'm wrong, and they had better get their heads out of their asses, and make-nice at the negotiating table this time.

I think that this is probably going to be their very last chance at the table.

If they screw-the-pooch on this one, I don't think there will be any more do-overs on the horizon.

It's entirely possible that I am dead-wrong about this possibility - and if I am, that's fine - I have no stake in this - but I, for one, see this as a distinct possibility, at this moment in history.

Conditions have never been more favorable for Israel to undertake radical action should this latest round of talks fail.

There is nobody in the region capable of stopping them.

There is no Arab Cavalry coming over the hill to rescue the Palestinians any longer.

Do not miss your last Window of Opportunty, lest you prompt the Israelis to use their own historic Window of Opportunity to their fullest advantage, in order to rid themselves of a mortal threat on their doorstep.

Meanwhile... you keep telling us how 'impossible' and 'crazy' and asinine such a suggestion is... and I'll keep telling us how wrong you are, and why.

But only if pushed...

I've already gone through my speculative exercise, introduced the concept, played Devil's Advocate in making a case for it, supplied compelling supporting logic... and feel no particular need to repeat myself endlessly, beating something into the ground again and again and again ad infinitum ad nauseum, like one or two of the folk around these parts.

 

[MHunterB]

What a pity, Steve, that you feel so entitled to ignore Jewish self-determination and are busily making up 'definitions' of Zionism to suit your evident need to make ridiculous and scurrilous attacks upon anyone who does not attack Israel.

Since I'm also a Zionist, every word you've attacked Kondor and Hoss wth, you've attacked me as well. Not only that, but several hundred of my closest friends and family - to include my son, my sister AND my 88 year old mother.

And it's all based on propaganda and lies: that's the worst of it.

Speaking of 'cowards', Steve - It takes a really lowlife sleaze to accuse an 88 year old lady of 'supporting Zionist terrorism' because she's a member of Hadassah.

 

[Hossfly]

Give it a rest, Little Stevie, get off your high horse and go back pacing the floors of you know where -- and stop reading the hate sites for their version of Edwin Black's "The Transfer." By the way, do they happen to have an Australian version of Hava Nagila?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WF6irnzAiI&feature=youtube_gdata_player]Hava Nagila Texas Style - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Hossfly]

A shit? Really? Did I do you an injury in a previous life or something, Junior?

Then again, I DO speculate upon (and sometimes advocate for) positions that run counter to your own, and I seem to do it much better than you.

So, I understand your frustration, and your resorting to grade-school -caliber juvenile tactics and name-calling, as a Hail Mary play.

Sandlot stuff, boy... standlot stuff... and most of your colleagues who deal regularly in such matters earned their varsity letters long before you.

You may be in over your head.

But DO keep trying... you may get lucky one of these days, and, of course, Allah loves try-ers, too!

P.S. - I greatly enjoyed your seeming drunken rant about Zionism - plenty of things in there to chuckle-over, and I needed a good laugh right about then.

Looks like Stevie has read about Edwin Black's book The Transfer on one of the hate sites, Kondor. Meanwhile, Stevie, of course, never talks about the Muslim terrorists who have murdered millions and millions of innocent people. Why should he? The Jews are not involved. You have to laugh at him when he spits out "Zionists" as if it was a dirty name.

Edwin Black probably knows how his book is being used on the hate sites, trying to make it seem like the Zionists were palsy walsy with the Nazis for some nefarious purpose. However........
Edwin Black: 25th Anniversary of Transfer Agreement Pt. 1 - YouTube

Feb 15, 2010 ... In an interview for Book TV, investigattive journalist Edwin Black talks about his
extraordinary book, "Transfer Agreement" and its 25th ...
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk24LXer8kw]Edwin Black: 25th Anniversary of Transfer Agreement Pt. 1 - YouTube[/ame] - 99k

See Hoss,I can disscuss Moslem,Christian,Hindo.etc., Terrorism Anytime and would be in much or Total Agreement.

But this Discussion is reserved for the ZIONISTS,THEIR TERRORISM AND THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE MILLIONS OF DEATHS OF JEWS AND PALESTINIANS

Why, Little Stevie, with all the different forums on the USMessageBoard covering many areas of the world, I haven't seen you condemning the terrorists in Africa, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia. You really are not kidding anyone. By the way, Edwin Black is really so tired of seeing his book discussed on the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites and wishes they would talk about this instead.
http://tundratabloids.com/2011/01/e...ts-of-hte-arab-naxi-alliance-during-wwii.html

 

[georgephillip]

"Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. By 1940-41, the “Stern Gang,” among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the 'Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany.'

"Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

“'The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:

"'1. Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.

"'2. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,

"'3. The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany’s side.'”

"They hanged people all over Europe after WW II for notes to the Nazis like these. But these treasons against the Jews were virtually unknown in the run up to the creation of the Zionist state in May 1948..."

51 Documents » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names