Is it time to legalize pot and reduce the death rate of tobacco and alcohol?

[High_Gravity]

Legalize all drugs, make them free or for very low cost.

Thinking that the main expenses of incarceration are for drugs is not true. Unless being high is an affirmative defense to criminal charges, the same people will be in prison for the same offenses. It isn't prisons making the money, it's the halfway houses, counseling centers, rehab and alternative sentencing that really rakes in the big money. Legalization should get rid of these institutions. Although, in San Francisco, users are demanding tax supported comfort rooms with a medical staff where they can get high and be monitored for collapse or overdose. That's something we can do without too.

Drugs should be treated like cupcakes. Just as legal, just as cheap, just as easily obtained. If HGs brother ate a lot of cupcakes there is no doubt that his father wouldn't be inclined to pay thousands of dollars to get him cupcake clean. He paid that money largely to keep the Bro out of trouble. Getting a addict clean, even for a short period of time, only prolongs their lives. Let them go, treat them like a collection of brain dead Terri Schiavos.

I get what you are saying however even with legalized drugs rehab center will still exist and hopeful parents will pay to send their drug addicted kids there, those places will have to close for the drug addicts to overdose themselves to death or to a commotuse state.

People can pay for anything they like. They pay thousands of dollars for centers that give them coffee enemas too. There are no public centers for coffee enemas. If we are legalizing drugs to somehow save money on prison incarceration, it makes no sense to then spend that money on the revolving door of rehab rather than the revolving door of prison. If the criteria is simply financial, it's senseless.

Alot of people have hope for their drug addicted kids, they really think with the right rehab and right program they can be saved, so people will still spend money on it, the rich send their kids to rebab with Lindsay Lohan and Charlie Sheen.

 

[Katzndogz]

I get what you are saying however even with legalized drugs rehab center will still exist and hopeful parents will pay to send their drug addicted kids there, those places will have to close for the drug addicts to overdose themselves to death or to a commotuse state.

People can pay for anything they like. They pay thousands of dollars for centers that give them coffee enemas too. There are no public centers for coffee enemas. If we are legalizing drugs to somehow save money on prison incarceration, it makes no sense to then spend that money on the revolving door of rehab rather than the revolving door of prison. If the criteria is simply financial, it's senseless.

Alot of people have hope for their drug addicted kids, they really think with the right rehab and right program they can be saved, so people will still spend money on it, the rich send their kids to rebab with Lindsay Lohan and Charlie Sheen.

They think that coffee enemas can cure cancer too. Many parents put kids in rehab to keep them out of prison. Take away the prison. There's no prison for cupcake addiction and no public rehab either. Lots of fat farms though.

 

[High_Gravity]

People can pay for anything they like. They pay thousands of dollars for centers that give them coffee enemas too. There are no public centers for coffee enemas. If we are legalizing drugs to somehow save money on prison incarceration, it makes no sense to then spend that money on the revolving door of rehab rather than the revolving door of prison. If the criteria is simply financial, it's senseless.

Alot of people have hope for their drug addicted kids, they really think with the right rehab and right program they can be saved, so people will still spend money on it, the rich send their kids to rebab with Lindsay Lohan and Charlie Sheen.

They think that coffee enemas can cure cancer too. Many parents put kids in rehab to keep them out of prison. Take away the prison. There's no prison for cupcake addiction and no public rehab either. Lots of fat farms though.

I don't have much faith in the rehabs, my brother has went through 2 of them in the past year and is still doing drugs. When you first report to the rehab they tell you are you are an addict for life, even when you are not using.

 

[Katzndogz]

Same thing with alcoholics. An alcoholic is an alcoholic for life. A drug addict is a drug addict for life, never more than the next drink, or fix, away from the bottom. They are addicts and drunks who are not using or drinking at the moment. There is no permanent cure. What happens is that an addict or a drunk might imagine they are now cured, and can drink and use without caving to the addiction. Of course, they immediately cave to the addiction.

 

[High_Gravity]

Same thing with alcoholics. An alcoholic is an alcoholic for life. A drug addict is a drug addict for life, never more than the next drink, or fix, away from the bottom. They are addicts and drunks who are not using or drinking at the moment. There is no permanent cure. What happens is that an addict or a drunk might imagine they are now cured, and can drink and use without caving to the addiction. Of course, they immediately cave to the addiction.

You are pretty much spot on, I remember when my brother was only smoking weed and said that was all he needed, my oh my have things changed since than.

 

[Montrovant]

Katz is rarely spot on with anything related to drug use.

The idea that legalized drugs would end up killing off most drug users is not supported by any facts that I have seen presented. That is especially true in the case of low risk drugs like marijuana. Just using the example of alcohol, has alcohol being legal somehow led to all the alcohol abusers dying off? Of course not. Alcohol use and abuse is still prevalent throughout our society. If marijuana is legal, what reason is there to think it would be any different?

As you start talking about more powerful drugs, the consequences of abuse and even casual use become more dangerous, so at least the argument makes a bit more sense. Still, Katz's tired refrain of 'make drugs free and legal and drug users will die out!' is little more than ridiculous trolling.

 

[High_Gravity]

Katz is rarely spot on with anything related to drug use.

The idea that legalized drugs would end up killing off most drug users is not supported by any facts that I have seen presented. That is especially true in the case of low risk drugs like marijuana. Just using the example of alcohol, has alcohol being legal somehow led to all the alcohol abusers dying off? Of course not. Alcohol use and abuse is still prevalent throughout our society. If marijuana is legal, what reason is there to think it would be any different?

As you start talking about more powerful drugs, the consequences of abuse and even casual use become more dangerous, so at least the argument makes a bit more sense. Still, Katz's tired refrain of 'make drugs free and legal and drug users will die out!' is little more than ridiculous trolling.

Well from what I know the experienced addicts know the amounts they need to kill themselves if thats what they want, usually the people that overdose and kill themselves are the newer addicts, once you been doping for years you pretty much know your body and what you can and can't handle. Theres plenty of evidence, look at all the ex crackheads from the 1980's and former heroin addicts from the 70s walking around. Dope fiends are actually fairly good at surviving.

 

[Katzndogz]

Katz is rarely spot on with anything related to drug use.

The idea that legalized drugs would end up killing off most drug users is not supported by any facts that I have seen presented. That is especially true in the case of low risk drugs like marijuana. Just using the example of alcohol, has alcohol being legal somehow led to all the alcohol abusers dying off? Of course not. Alcohol use and abuse is still prevalent throughout our society. If marijuana is legal, what reason is there to think it would be any different?

As you start talking about more powerful drugs, the consequences of abuse and even casual use become more dangerous, so at least the argument makes a bit more sense. Still, Katz's tired refrain of 'make drugs free and legal and drug users will die out!' is little more than ridiculous trolling.

Well from what I know the experienced addicts know the amounts they need to kill themselves if thats what they want, usually the people that overdose and kill themselves are the newer addicts, once you been doping for years you pretty much know your body and what you can and can't handle. Theres plenty of evidence, look at all the ex crackheads from the 1980's and former heroin addicts from the 70s walking around. Dope fiends are actually fairly good at surviving.

They are older and experienced addicts because they have been in and out of the system interrupting their addiction path. They get periods of real recovery. Take away the system. Not to mention that addicts have a tendency to fight over drugs including fighting over marijuana. Sometimes fight to the death.

I used to be anti legalization until a retired cop friend said that he became a legalization advocate by seeing how many calls he went out on where the death was drug related. Either a fight, or overdose, or mixing. Because drugs are illegal, users try to be a bit careful in where they use and how much. If drugs were legal, these deaths would be more numerous and occur at a faster rate. The drug cartels took out over 40,000 users and dealers in just a few years. In all of our accommodation of drugs, we haven't come close to that.

 

[MikeK]

It's time to legalize pot, but it's fallacious to assume that will lower tobacco and alcohol rates as use of one doesn't exclude the other.

I can't offer a substantive argument to that position because I'm not aware of any empirical evidence to support one, but in the opinion of one who has used quite a bit of marijuana during the 60s and 70s, and has known many other users, from ordinary street people to police officers, lawyers and medical professionals, legally available marijuana would divert many who otherwise would use beverage alcohol to alter their consciousness. One factor which should serve as suggestively convincing if not empirical evidence is the fact that the liquor industry is the primary source of funding for the the Partnership For a Drug-Free America -- which concentrates 99% of its propaganda on marijuana.

I believe the reasons why there is no empirical evidence to support my position is the prohibition of marijuana precludes an objective study across the entire population. But it is reasonable to assume that, except for those who are genetically predisposed to enjoy the effects of beverage alcohol, the outstanding differences between the two substances will convince the average individual that marijuana is the better choice for several important reasons: The effect is much more pleasant, there is no hangover or nausea, there is no danger (to the stable personality) of addiction and no negative medical effects (keeping in mind that smoking is neither the only way nor the best way to use marijuana).

If marijuana is legalized and intelligently introduced to the public I am certain it will soon replace beverage alcohol as the drug of choice for many if not most Americans. The immediate problem will be overcoming the years of intensive Reefer Madness propaganda.

 

[Montrovant]

It's time to legalize pot, but it's fallacious to assume that will lower tobacco and alcohol rates as use of one doesn't exclude the other.

I can't offer a substantive argument to that position because I'm not aware of any empirical evidence to support one, but in the opinion of one who has used quite a bit of marijuana during the 60s and 70s, and has known many other users, from ordinary street people to police officers, lawyers and medical professionals, legally available marijuana would divert many who otherwise would use beverage alcohol to alter their consciousness. One factor which should serve as suggestively convincing if not empirical evidence is the fact that the liquor industry is the primary source of funding for the the Partnership For a Drug-Free America -- which concentrates 99% of its propaganda on marijuana.

I believe the reasons why there is no empirical evidence to support my position is the prohibition of marijuana precludes an objective study across the entire population. But it is reasonable to assume that, except for those who are genetically predisposed to enjoy the effects of beverage alcohol, the outstanding differences between the two substances will convince the average individual that marijuana is the better choice for several important reasons: The effect is much more pleasant, there is no hangover or nausea, there is no danger (to the stable personality) of addiction and no negative medical effects (keeping in mind that smoking is neither the only way nor the best way to use marijuana).

If marijuana is legalized and intelligently introduced to the public I am certain it will soon replace beverage alcohol as the drug of choice for many if not most Americans. The immediate problem will be overcoming the years of intensive Reefer Madness propaganda.

I think you underestimate both how entrenched in our culture alcohol use is and how many people would prefer alcohol's effects.

I don't disagree that legalized marijuana would likely have some limiting effect on alcohol use, but I think it would be fairly minor. More likely, in my opinion, is that some people who now only drink alcohol might use marijuana as well. A different high might be desired in different situations (is the person going out, staying home, alone or with friends, etc.).

 

[Katzndogz]

Proponents of marijuana legalization have a vested interest in imagining that it will replace alcohol and cigarettes and we will all be on our way to a pot induced nirvana.

 

[MikeK]

legalizing pot will have ZERO effect on tobacco and alcohol use.

Then why did those two lobbies sink millions into a vote against a change in law?

Regards
DL

A few questions I would like to ask of potheads.

Do you use pot yourself?
If you do not use pot yourself, do you think that pot users don't drink?
If you use pot yourself, do you and your pot using friends also drink. Such as have a few beers while you're smoking?

Considering the conflicting effects of the two drugs, anyone who would use both together has a problem and can't knock himself out fast enough. I've know a few of those individuals and every one of them was trouble looking for a place to happen.

Drug use is not either or. It is normally both, simultaneously.

Actually it is abnormal to use both together. Anyone who would do that is looking for the kind of high that only freebase cocaine or amphetamines can induce. Such individuals are dangerously susceptible to serious drug addiction.

Again -- ABnormal!

 

[MikeK]

A few questions I would like to ask of potheads.

Those with sophisticated awareness understand the derogatory term, "pothead," refers to those who use marijuana to an excessive and debilitating degree. In that regard the word "pothead" is comparable to the word "lush" which generally refers to the habitual drunkard.

Using that word in reference to anyone or everyone who uses marijuana is narc talk and is but one of the lesser reasons why narcs are commonly regarded as the scumbags of law enforcement.

So just who is your question addressed to?

 

[MikeK]

You claim to not do drugs? What do you think tobacco is anyway?

Organic tobacco such as what I get and smoke from the Yucatan is akin to a glass of wine or orange juice. It is a requirement for good health.

Hope that is helpful.

Robert

Does it contain nicotine? If so we have some unhappy news for you.

 

[MikeK]

legalizing pot will have ZERO effect on tobacco and alcohol use.

Proof? Evidence?

There is no logical reason to expect legalizing pot to effect either. There is no causal connection between the legal status of pot, with people's choices to use tobacco or alcohol. Just because someone, for example, drinks alcohol, does not in any way necessitate nor imply that legalizing pot will induce them to stop drinking. When was the last time you heard someone say "Well, pot's illegal so I guess I'll just have a beer"?

There is no recognized causal connection at this time because marijuana prohibition has precluded the necessary period of observation under legalized conditions. It will take time for the public to overcome the Reefer Madness indoctrination they've been exposed to since the 1930s and to gradually realize and accept that marijuana is superior in every way to beverage alcohol.

The exceptions to this conditioned acceptance will be those who are genetically predisposed to alcoholism A Genetic Predisposition To Alcohol Dependence May Be Indicated By Sensitivity To Alcohol Odors and those with addictive personalities (inclined to use any and all mind-altering substances regardless of negative potential).

In time the average social drinker and those who drink to relax will come to understand that marijuana is the better choice.

 

[Gadawg73]

Same thing with alcoholics. An alcoholic is an alcoholic for life. A drug addict is a drug addict for life, never more than the next drink, or fix, away from the bottom. They are addicts and drunks who are not using or drinking at the moment. There is no permanent cure. What happens is that an addict or a drunk might imagine they are now cured, and can drink and use without caving to the addiction. Of course, they immediately cave to the addiction.

True but there are many bad drug abusers that are not the same as addicts. They have emotional and other problems and start using.
Same with alcohol.
I have known many alcoholics and people with bad drinking problems and worked with them. A true alcoholic has to have it every day, all the time. I worked with an attorney that drank 20 oz of vodka each morning before he could function. He went fishing with us once and I drank beer and shots with him until 11 pm one night. I was so hungover I had hard time getting up the next day. I heard him leave the condo at 7 am and he walked across the street and got a 12 pack of tall boys. When I got up at 10 am with a headache he had drunk 5 of them.
And I have known folks with bad drinking problems. They do not crave it.
True fact is almost everyone I have ever known that had American Indian in them should NOT drink.

 

[Katzndogz]

I expect potheads to claim that marijuana is either harmless or beneficial. Heroin users do the same thing, so do meth users and you can't beat cocaine.

However, we owe it to ourselves to give it a shot. If marijuana is harmless nothing bad will happen. If they start getting psychotic, have heart attacks and/or strokes. Then it is STILL nothing bad happening. I may feel a bit sorry for young users who alter their still developing brains, but it's not my problem is it?

 

[Gadawg73]

I expect potheads to claim that marijuana is either harmless or beneficial. Heroin users do the same thing, so do meth users and you can't beat cocaine.

However, we owe it to ourselves to give it a shot. If marijuana is harmless nothing bad will happen. If they start getting psychotic, have heart attacks and/or strokes. Then it is STILL nothing bad happening. I may feel a bit sorry for young users who alter their still developing brains, but it's not my problem is it?

Reefer is safer than drinking 4 glasses of sweet tea a day.
I do neither but sugar does more ham than reefer.

 

[Katzndogz]

By all means, increase your consumption!

 

[Montrovant]

I expect potheads to claim that marijuana is either harmless or beneficial. Heroin users do the same thing, so do meth users and you can't beat cocaine.

However, we owe it to ourselves to give it a shot. If marijuana is harmless nothing bad will happen. If they start getting psychotic, have heart attacks and/or strokes. Then it is STILL nothing bad happening. I may feel a bit sorry for young users who alter their still developing brains, but it's not my problem is it?

Reefer is safer than drinking 4 glasses of sweet tea a day.
I do neither but sugar does more ham than reefer.

Sorry but I'm going to have to call bullshit on this. You've said this before in the thread, but you haven't shown any evidence of it. Are you saying the sugar in the tea will lead to obesity? Are you saying sugar is just an inherently harmful substance in some way? Are you saying smoking marijuana is completely harmless?