Is obama a socilist, or a fascist?

[clevergirl]

I don't recall which thread, but I responded to a "Hitler got rid of unions just like conservatives want to"...as if~

Here is a great link that shoots the implication that Hitler was anything other than a fascist megalomaniac Hitler Didn

And this too:

There are right wing fascism (Hitler) and left wing fascism (Stalin).

Fascism is simply totalitarianism – a severe police state. And that can operate under any economic system.

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." — Adolf Hitler, May 1, 1927

It might be an over-simplification, but to the absolute left is ultra-Socialism which can manifest itself as Fascism or Communism. To the absolute right is Anarchism. Complete government control over citizens and property vs. zero control over citizens and property.

That's not really accurate. You're getting level of government control mixed up with government's role in the economy. Fascism and communism aren't "ultra-Socialism", they're both forms of which envision a large role for the state, but for very different ends (dictatorship of the workers in communist, maximizing the profits of major industry in fascism). There are also visions of a minimal/no state on both the right (anarcho-capitalism) and left (anarcho-syndicalism).

OMG- really? Communism was the natural evolution of Socialism- Just as Fascism is- The State has to take ever more control as it becomes ever more responsible to its doctrine.

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.” — Adolf Hitler, from speech delivered on May 1, 1927


“The influence of Marxist scholarship has severely distorted our understanding of fascism. Communism and fascism were rival brands of socialism. Whereas Marxist socialism is predicated on an international class struggle, fascist national socialism promoted a socialism centered in national unity. [And in fact, Both movements were "revolutionary socialist ideologies." Going on,] Both communists and fascists opposed the bourgeoisie. Both attacked the conservatives. Both were mass movements, which had special appeal for the intelligentsia, students, and artists, as well as workers. Both favored strong centralized governments and rejected the free economy and the ideals of individual liberty. [And finally,] Fascists saw themselves as being neither of the right nor the left. They believed that they constituted a third force synthesizing the best of both extremes” [Gene Edward Veith, Jr., Modern Fascism: Liquidating the Judeo-Christian Worldview, p. 26].

great article

 

[Contumacious]

And this too:

There are right wing fascism (Hitler) and left wing fascism (Stalin).

Fascism is simply totalitarianism – a severe police state. And that can operate under any economic system.

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." — Adolf Hitler, May 1, 1927

It might be an over-simplification, but to the absolute left is ultra-Socialism which can manifest itself as Fascism or Communism. To the absolute right is Anarchism. Complete government control over citizens and property vs. zero control over citizens and property.

That's not really accurate. You're getting level of government control mixed up with government's role in the economy. Fascism and communism aren't "ultra-Socialism", they're both forms of which envision a large role for the state, but for very different ends (dictatorship of the workers in communist, maximizing the profits of major industry in fascism). There are also visions of a minimal/no state on both the right (anarcho-capitalism) and left (anarcho-syndicalism).

OMG- really? Communism was the natural evolution of Socialism- Just as Fascism is- The State has to take ever more control as it becomes ever more responsible to its doctrine.

]

Yo Vern, if it is easier to assimilate , forget the labels and contemplate a massive government bureaucracy which controls all the means of production by tyrannical means.

Such a system would be rejected by Libertarians but loved by those who love to be enslaved.

.

 

[buckeye45_73]

That's not really accurate. You're getting level of government control mixed up with government's role in the economy. Fascism and communism aren't "ultra-Socialism", they're both forms of which envision a large role for the state, but for very different ends (dictatorship of the workers in communist, maximizing the profits of major industry in fascism). There are also visions of a minimal/no state on both the right (anarcho-capitalism) and left (anarcho-syndicalism).

OMG- really? Communism was the natural evolution of Socialism- Just as Fascism is- The State has to take ever more control as it becomes ever more responsible to its doctrine.

]

Yo Vern, if it is easier to assimilate , forget the labels and contemplate a massive government bureaucracy which controls all the means of production by tyrannical means.

Such a system would be rejected by Libertarians but loved by those who love to be enslaved.

.

I love their little academic exercises they learn in college from commies, then think they know it all. Liberals love theory, but dont really pay attention to real world results.

 

[JakeStarkey]

JAke we have been over this, and you never give us your information, so stop being a dipshit.

Yes, we have been over this, and you are wrong every time.

Jillian is your better on these subjects: be schooled by her and learn.

Enough of you and your illiteracy about these matters.

Again, you run away, because you have nothing.

Your logic has been dismantled, you are shown to be a boob, yet you as if you were standing in the corner, go "uh uh".

You are goofy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Obama is a socialist--

Nope, but you are a fool.

 

[JakeStarkey]

He is a damn socialist, and a racist - an enemy of the country! That is the fundamental change he was refering to. You can't argue with most liberals - they won't see beyond their ideology/agenda. Breaking the law is fine if it congruent with their crap!

no kidding, the liberals are all ass kissing Obama types, but I do see a couple of more moderate people, which is nice and then people like me

Thank heavens conservatives in America don't think like you folks, that conservatives are voting for Romney, and Romney will have nothing to do with your types in policy making.

 

[clevergirl]

That's not really accurate. You're getting level of government control mixed up with government's role in the economy. Fascism and communism aren't "ultra-Socialism", they're both forms of which envision a large role for the state, but for very different ends (dictatorship of the workers in communist, maximizing the profits of major industry in fascism). There are also visions of a minimal/no state on both the right (anarcho-capitalism) and left (anarcho-syndicalism).

OMG- really? Communism was the natural evolution of Socialism- Just as Fascism is- The State has to take ever more control as it becomes ever more responsible to its doctrine.

]

Yo Vern, if it is easier to assimilate , forget the labels and contemplate a massive government bureaucracy which controls all the means of production by tyrannical means.

Such a system would be rejected by Libertarians but loved by those who love to be enslaved.

.

You mean kind of like the slow and steady chipping away of our liberty with things like obamacare? If you understood the variant forms of socialism as well as you claim, you'd also know that a plan to slowly turn the US towards socialism has existed since the late 19th century. America's path has not been one of revolution- but one of a slow boil.


It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once.
David Hume (1711-1776)

Modern socialist movements and organizations

In American society today, socialist groups range in political views from the extreme right to the extreme left. The extreme right wing groups comprise neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic and fascist groups such as the National Socialist Movement or NSM, whose purpose is to “purify” American society through violent and non-violent means. The NSM is said to wear the uniforms and paraphernalia of the Third Reich. According to their website, the NSM is an organization that is “dedicated to the preservation of our Proud Aryan Heritage, and the creation of a National Socialist Society in America and around the world.”

Representing the far left wing are such groups as the Socialist Party U.S.A. That party believes in what is called “Democratic Socialism," defined as “a political and economic system with freedom and equality for all, so that people may develop to their fullest potential in harmony with others.” The party further states that it is “committed to full freedom of speech, assembly, press, and religion, and to a multi-party system” and that the ownership and control of the production and distribution of goods “should be democratically controlled public agencies, cooperatives, or other collective groups.” Other socialist groups include the Democratic Socialists of America, National Alliance, Young Democrat Socialist, and the Democratic Progressive Party.

There are also many “anti-socialist” groups, which include the Future of Freedom Foundation, Sons of Liberty, and the Cato Institute. They express various beliefs regarding socialism in America and the rights of the American public.

 

[salem.hills]

Obama is a socialist--

Nope, but you are a fool.

He's just a black liberation theologian (Jew hater)/ Marxist is his believe system its not even debatable.

 

[WillowTree]

I will link the rest of the article in a while, but I'd like to see discussion on this much of it, before I attribute it.

Politically, it is heads-I-win when things go right, and tails-you-lose when things go wrong. This is far preferable, from Obama's point of view, since it gives him a variety of scapegoats for all his failed policies, without having to use President Bush as a scapegoat all the time.

Government ownership of the means of production means that politicians also own the consequences of their policies, and have to face responsibility when those consequences are disastrous -- something that Barack Obama avoids like the plague.

Thus the Obama administration can arbitrarily force insurance companies to cover the children of their customers until the children are 26 years old. Obviously, this creates favorable publicity for President Obama. But if this and other government edicts cause insurance premiums to rise, then that is something that can be blamed on the "greed" of the insurance companies.

The same principle, or lack of principle, applies to many other privately owned businesses. It is a very successful political ploy that can be adapted to all sorts of situations.

One of the reasons why both pro-Obama and anti-Obama observers may be reluctant to see him as fascist is that both tend to accept the prevailing notion that fascism is on the political right, while it is obvious that Obama is on the political left.

Back in the 1920s, however, when fascism was a new political development, it was widely -- and correctly -- regarded as being on the political left. Jonah Goldberg's great book "Liberal Fascism" cites overwhelming evidence of the fascists' consistent pursuit of the goals of the left, and of the left's embrace of the fascists as one of their own during the 1920s.

Mussolini, the originator of fascism, was lionized by the left, both in Europe and in America, during the 1920s. Even Hitler, who adopted fascist ideas in the 1920s, was seen by some, including W.E.B. Du Bois, as a man of the left.

both of his parents were communists.

 

[buckeye45_73]

He is a damn socialist, and a racist - an enemy of the country! That is the fundamental change he was refering to. You can't argue with most liberals - they won't see beyond their ideology/agenda. Breaking the law is fine if it congruent with their crap!

no kidding, the liberals are all ass kissing Obama types, but I do see a couple of more moderate people, which is nice and then people like me

Thank heavens conservatives in America don't think like you folks, that conservatives are voting for Romney, and Romney will have nothing to do with your types in policy making.

Havent you heard on the boards, he's already a right wing, fascist, dictator AND a puppet of corporations.
and Jake, I cant take you seriously after you told me the SA (aka fascists) were socialists and that I was wrong, not to mention you said left wing politics was not based on Marx and I still have no answer on the "rational" left or actually the left in general.

 

[notatallanti]

The only answer to the question as posed is, "No."

There are other, appropriate terms that could be used, but since they apply too broadly to be attributed to a single practitioner, this is not the place to go into all that.

The Democrats and the Republicans have so repeatedly and over such a period of time betrayed the Constitution and the people that the only solution is dissolution; get rid of both.

 

[JohnA]

He's a punk.

A strong leader......

He's a Wanker.

not quite he is a puppet somebody else is pulling his strings

 

[JakeStarkey]

And the right is calling Obama names as well: doesn't matter.

You are a light weight on the board son. The SA were socialists, and the leadership was homosexual. Since you are unaware of those basic facts, then what you have to say is inaccurate and unimportant.

You are not rational, you are not a conservative, just a weirdo reactionary from the far,far right.

Havent you heard on the boards, he's already a right wing, fascist, dictator AND a puppet of corporations.
and Jake, I cant take you seriously after you told me the SA (aka fascists) were socialists and that I was wrong, not to mention you said left wing politics was not based on Marx and I still have no answer on the "rational" left or actually the left in general.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Obama is a socialist--

Nope, but you are a fool.

obama is a member and was supported by the Chicago New Party. stop being a partisan idiot.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Chicago Democratic Socialists of America

 

[Foxfyre]

no kidding, the liberals are all ass kissing Obama types, but I do see a couple of more moderate people, which is nice and then people like me

Thank heavens conservatives in America don't think like you folks, that conservatives are voting for Romney, and Romney will have nothing to do with your types in policy making.

Havent you heard on the boards, he's already a right wing, fascist, dictator AND a puppet of corporations.
and Jake, I cant take you seriously after you told me the SA (aka fascists) were socialists and that I was wrong, not to mention you said left wing politics was not based on Marx and I still have no answer on the "rational" left or actually the left in general.

I swear somebody must be paying Jake to say things like that, because I simply do not accept that anybody of otherwise seemingly normal intelligence could actually believe them.

But socialism in all its forms includes concepts that includes the means of producing and distributing goods being owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. Fascism is therefore a socialist government while fascism is a stage of the Marxist model.

In Fascism, the government and/or its surrogates run commerce and industry, or it controls and directs those who do. Some private property and profits are allowed giving an illusion of capitalism, but the government maintains tight controls on how and for what purpose those profits will be produced and reserves the rights to take property and profits away from anybody who displeases the government.

Marxism includes a period of fascist control in which the goal is to abolish all social classes and abolish all private property. Once accomplished, the people will then share according to their needs from the collective wealth of the nation. But first the rich and large property owners must be demonized and made the villains so that the masses will rise up and support the government in wresting the wealth and power from them.

Unfortunately, once the fascist government attains such power and control, the people at the top have become addicted to the power, wealth, and privilege and never voluntarily give it up. So no nation has ever moved from there to the collective utopia that was promised.

Now then. How many times over the last four years has Obama pushed the theme that the rich need to pay more, has encouraged people to believe that Wall Street and the big corporations are the problem, and the middle class is getting screwed and we need to spread the wealth around more?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I swear that foxfyre is clueless about these issues. She even thinks Washington was a libertarian, for heavens sake.

Foxfyre is a great person but woefully inadequate about American history, narrative, culture, and laws.

 

[Polk]

And this too:

There are right wing fascism (Hitler) and left wing fascism (Stalin).

Fascism is simply totalitarianism – a severe police state. And that can operate under any economic system.

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." — Adolf Hitler, May 1, 1927

It might be an over-simplification, but to the absolute left is ultra-Socialism which can manifest itself as Fascism or Communism. To the absolute right is Anarchism. Complete government control over citizens and property vs. zero control over citizens and property.

That's not really accurate. You're getting level of government control mixed up with government's role in the economy. Fascism and communism aren't "ultra-Socialism", they're both forms of which envision a large role for the state, but for very different ends (dictatorship of the workers in communist, maximizing the profits of major industry in fascism). There are also visions of a minimal/no state on both the right (anarcho-capitalism) and left (anarcho-syndicalism).

That's an academic look at it, I live in the real world, so whether TECHNICALLY the Nazis had private property or not, STalin=Hitler, not much difference. It's like Oranges and Tangerines, same thing.
Utopian Socialism and anarchy are the same thing, just different ways to view it. Conservatives see chaos and call it anarchy(it conjures up chaos, does it not?), while liberals see it as a panacea starting with Thomas Moore. YAY!

There is no technicality to it. Who kept the returns to capital in the Soviet Union? The state. Who kept the returns in Nazi Germany? Businesses.

 

[Polk]

You live in the world of reality one uses words with real definitions and terms and narrative, not made up ones by anyone, left or right.

buckeye has no idea at all concerning political philosophy and certainly nothing about Stalin, Hitler, socialism, and communism. To him they are all the same thing, which merely reveals his deep-set ignorance.

JAke we have been over this, and you never give us your information, so stop being a dipshit.
So far we have learned taht Marx got his ideas from the French Revoltion, and the left wing is a big fan of Marx (although you say no, but I havent seen any proof from you). And we know that yes in theory there are differences, but in practice, Hitler and Stalin, which one was better?

It's very odd to say the French Revolution has a significant impact on Marx. His analysis was much more rooted in expanding on the idea of Smith and Ricardo. No one of the serious left promotes Marxist ideas, but I would say you shouldn't be so quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Several parts of Marx's writing are generally correct (religion as tool of social control, improvements in technology would make labor less valuable). It's also worth noting that while Marx was a critic of capitalism as a system, he wasn't critical of individual capitalists, going far to say in Das Capital that there profits are "by no means an injustice". I think it's really easy to bash the writings of Marx based on what later people did with them, but as work of philosophy, they're really top-notch.

 

[Polk]

Fascistotards live in this fantasy world where all brown shirted bureaucrats are angels.

May I suggest that you move Greece , Spain , Italy , Somalia, Cuba....and any other socialist paradise your heart desires?!?!?!

.

Actually, Somalia seems like a libertarian paradise. Not a government in sight. Should be heaven on Earth.

That's not liberatarian......it's ANARCHY, which is the ultimate right wing philosphy, but it means chaos, we're not wanting to get to that, we'd like to get as close as possible (think calculus) without touching it.

lim (anarchy) as delta x approaches infinity?