rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
- 21,928
- 4,687
- 290
Not gonna help you in court.
You're still gonna be judged,
both for lack of good action and your evil doing.
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Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?
- Thread starter GreatestIam
- Start date
Not gonna help you in court.
You're still gonna be judged,
both for lack of good action and your evil doing.
I disagree. I have never said we won't be judged for our acts.Where did I say otherwise?No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?Man has free will to do good or not do good."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Who gave man the ability to do evil?
Maimonides responds...
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
You're evading the question.
Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?
No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.
Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.
That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?
And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?
You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.
So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.
Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.
You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.
You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.
What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.
Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.
So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.
I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.
If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.
But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".
That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.
Can't twist out of that.
That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.
Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?
But putting that aside, I am saying exactly the same thing that Maimonides is saying, so you are accusing him of what you are accusing me of.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
You are literally arguing against the beliefs of MOSES MAIMONIDES."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."In essence ding,
you're pretending you didn't eat from the tree,
and thus don't know evil. But do you think this helps in court of law?
"But G-d, You only do good.
How can I be judged for my evil doing?
That woman...that was just me "not doing good",
if you can't do evil, I'm certainly not more powerful than You...
You didn't give me an ability to do evil, I believe, no G-d You're mistaken..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Not gonna help you in court.
You're still gonna be judged,
both for lack of good action and your evil doing.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
Good for you. I couldn't be happier for you to believe that. We each have to make our own choices.Do you want him to do everything for you? Where does your accountability start in all of this?Only the ones that lack wisdom. Yes."...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."The very first line is a contradiction."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
If all of god's works are perfectly good and we all know that man is not perfectly good and man is one of god's works the statement contradicts itself.
Now let's address free will. God gave free will to man if god created everything then he also created the concept of free will and gifted man with it so god is responsible consequences of man exercising his gift of free will.
So let's use a nonreligious example.
If I give a loaded gun to a child and that child kills someone I,not the child, am responsible for the consequences.
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
SO man is ignorant. IOW man doesn't know. You really think man doesn't know. Evenmore reason to think god is responsible for the actions of man.
God doesn't make you do stupid things.
The statement you just made is a textbook example of an external locus of control which is not a good look if you understand locus of control.
No he just didn't give men the wisdom to know what is stupid or not.
You have literally been given the most precious gift there is and you are complaining it's not enough?
Again I don't believe in the god myth.
I am giving you my take on it but I do not believe in myths.
I categorize your god story along side the Greek myths.
rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
- 21,928
- 4,687
- 290
I disagree. I have never said we won't be judged for our acts.Where did I say otherwise?No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?Man has free will to do good or not do good."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Who gave man the ability to do evil?
Maimonides responds...
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
You're evading the question.
Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?
No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.
Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.
That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?
And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?
You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.
So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.
Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.
You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.
You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.
What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.
Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.
So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.
I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.
If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.
But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".
That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.
Can't twist out of that.
That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.
Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?
But putting that aside, I am saying exactly the same thing that Maimonides is saying, so you are accusing him of what you are accusing me of.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
And yet Maimonides doesn't deny the evil inclination,
and you do everything you can to make it seem as if he did.
Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
The one who argues against Maimonides is you,
picking what fits your delusions and ignoring the rest of the text,
does not mean he argues your case, rather demonstrates your ignorance.
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Because that's your argument against the existence of God. You literally made that argument. You are arguing God can't exist because bad things can happen to good people.Which results in you blaming God for man's bad acts. You literally are saying that God should have not allowed man free will to do good or not do good.No. It was man's choice to be ignorant. You can't blame others for your errors. That's not a good look.And it was god's error to leave man ignorantYou aren't God so... the error was in your absence of wisdom to give a child a gun.If I give a loaded gun to a child and that child kills someone I,not the child, am responsible for the consequences.
We are but children to a god aren't we? So god the parent gave man free will but not the wisdom to use it.
No different from a parent giving a child a loaded gun
I am beginning to think you have a victim attitude the way you are looking to blame others for your choices.
I don't blame others for my errors.
I am telling you how I understand the god creation myth.
And I think it is you who look down on others because you think you are morally superior with your childish idealistic moral absolutes that you can't even live up to.
I don't see myself as superior to anyone. I'm no saint. I don't see anything special about myself at all. So I'm not sure where you are getting this from.
How can I blame a god I don't believe exists for anything ?
I told you how I see your god myth.
It is not a myth I believe is true.
Hey you can pass your judgements on me by saying I have a victim mentality but you don't like when I pass my judgements on you.
That is an external locus of control argument. It literally blames God for giving man the freedom to do good or not do good. It absolves man of his responsibilities and places the blame on God. It's like you blaming me for giving you a million bucks that you then pissed away.
I'm not judging you. I am judging your choice to blame God for man's bad acts rather than blaming man for man's bad acts.
rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
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Where does Maimonides write man is not judged for doing evil?You are literally arguing against the beliefs of MOSES MAIMONIDES."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."In essence ding,
you're pretending you didn't eat from the tree,
and thus don't know evil. But do you think this helps in court of law?
"But G-d, You only do good.
How can I be judged for my evil doing?
That woman...that was just me "not doing good",
if you can't do evil, I'm certainly not more powerful than You...
You didn't give me an ability to do evil, I believe, no G-d You're mistaken..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Not gonna help you in court.
You're still gonna be judged,
both for lack of good action and your evil doing.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
Of course he doesn't.
Don't put other people's names under your nonesense.
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He actually goes into great detail to argue that man is mostly good. So why would you think he was arguing that man was given an evil inclination from God when man mostly does good.I disagree. I have never said we won't be judged for our acts.Where did I say otherwise?No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?Man has free will to do good or not do good."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Who gave man the ability to do evil?
Maimonides responds...
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
You're evading the question.
Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?
No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.
Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.
That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?
And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?
You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.
So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.
Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.
You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.
You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.
What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.
Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.
So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.
I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.
If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.
But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".
That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.
Can't twist out of that.
That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.
Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?
But putting that aside, I am saying exactly the same thing that Maimonides is saying, so you are accusing him of what you are accusing me of.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
And yet Maimonides doesn't deny the evil inclination,
and you do everything you can to make it seem as if he did.
Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
The one who argues against Maimonides is you,
picking what fits your delusions and ignoring the rest of the text,
does not mean he argues your case, rather demonstrates your ignorance.
MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things ; many sayings and songs of the nations dwell on this idea. They say that a good thing is found only exceptionally, whilst evil things are numerous and lasting. Not only common people make this mistake, but even many who believe that they are wise. A1-Razi wrote a well-known book On Metaphysics [or Theology]. Among other mad and foolish things, it contains also the idea, discovered by him, that there exists more evil than good. For if the happiness of man and his pleasure in the times of prosperity be compared with the mishaps that befall him,--such as grief, acute pain, defects, paralysis of the limbs, fears, anxieties, and troubles,--it would seem as if the existence of man is a punishment and a great evil for him. This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. The origin of the error is to be found in the circumstance that this ignorant man, and his party among the common people, judge the whole universe by examining one single person. For an ignorant man believes that the whole universe only exists for him ; as if nothing else required any consideration. If, therefore anything happens to him contrary to his expectation, he at once concludes that the whole universe is evil. If, however, he would take into consideration the whole universe, form an idea of it, and comprehend what a small portion he is of the Universe, he will find the truth. For it is clear that persons who have fallen into this widespread error as regards the multitude of evils in the world, do not find the evils among the angels, the spheres and stars, the elements, and that which is formed of them, viz., minerals and plants, or in the various species of living beings, but only in some individual instances of mankind. They wonder that a person, who became leprous in consequence of bad food, should be afflicted with so great an illness and suffer such a misfortune ; or that he who indulges so much in sensuality as to weaken his sight, should be struck with blindness and the like. What we have, in truth, to consider is this :--The whole mankind at present in existence, and a fortiori, every other species of animals, form an infinitesimal portion of the permanent universe. Comp. "Man is like to vanity" (Ps. cxliv. 4) ; " How much less man, that is a worm ; and the son of man, which is a worm" (Job xxv. 6) ; "How much less in them who dwell in houses of clay " (ibid. iv. I9) ; " Behold, the nations are as a drop of the bucket" (Isa. xl. 15). There are many other passages in the books of the prophets expressing the same idea. It is of great advantage that man should know his station, and not erroneously imagine that the whole universe exists only for him. We hold that the universe exists because the Creator wills it so ; that mankind is low in rank as compared with the uppermost portion of the universe, viz., with the spheres and the stars ; but, as regards the angels, there cannot be any real comparison between man and angels, although man is the highest of all beings on earth ; i.e., of all beings formed of the four elements. Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! Comp. "Is destruction his [work] No. Ye [who call yourselves] wrongly his sons, you who are a perverse and crooked generation" (Deut. xxxii. 5). This is explained by Solomon, who says, "The foolishness of man perverteth his way, and his heart fretteth against the Lord" (Prov. xix. 3). I explain this theory in the following manner. The evils that befall man are of three kinds : (I) The first kind of evil is that which is caused to man by the circumstance that he is subject to genesis and destruction, or that he possesses a body. It is on account of the body that some persons happen to have great deformities or paralysis of some of the organs. This evil may be part of the natural constitution of these persons, or may have developed subsequently in consequence of changes in the elements, e.g., through bad air, or thunderstorms, or landslips. We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear. He who thinks that he can have flesh and bones without being subject to any external influence, or any of the accidents of matter, unconsciously wishes to reconcile two opposites, viz., to be at the same time subject and not subject to change. If man were never subject to change there could be no generation ; there would be one single being, but no individuals forming a species. Galen, in the third section of his book, The Use of the Limbs, says correctly that it would be in vain to expect to see living beings formed of the blood of menstruous women and the semen virile, who will not die, will never feel pain, or will move perpetually, or will shine like the sun. This dictum of Galen is part of the following more general proposition :--Whatever is formed of any matter receives the most perfect form possible in that species of matter ; in each individual case the defects are in accordance with the defects of that individual matter. The best and most perfect being that can be formed of the blood and the semen is the species of man, for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil. You will, nevertheless, find that the evils of the above kind which befall man are very few and rare ; for you find countries that have not been flooded or burned for thousands of years ; there are thousands of men in perfect health, deformed individuals are a strange and exceptional occurrence, or say few in number if you object to the term exceptional,--they are not one-hundredth, not even one-thousandth part of those that are perfectly normal. (2) The second class of evils comprises such evils as people cause to each other, when, e.g., some of them use their strength against others. These evils are more numerous than those of the first kind ; their causes are numerous and known; they likewise originate in ourselves, though the sufferer himself cannot avert them. This kind of evil is nevertheless not widespread in any country of the whole world. It is of rare occurrence that a man plans to kill his neighbour or to rob him of his property by night. Many persons are, however, afflicted with this kind of evil in great wars ; but these are not frequent, if the whole inhabited part of the earth is taken into consideration. (3) The third class of evil comprises those which every one causes to himself by his own action. This is the largest class, and is far more numerous than the second class. It is especially of these evils that all men complain,-- only few men are found that do not sin against themselves by this kind of evil. Those that are afflicted with it are therefore justly blamed in the words of the prophet, " This hath been by your means " (Mal. i. 9) ; the same is expressed in the following passage, " He that doeth it destroyeth his own soul" (Prov. vi. 32). In reference to this kind of evil, Solomon says, " The foolishness of man perverteth his way" Obid. xix. 3). In the following passage he explains also that this kind of evil is man's own work, " Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright, but they have thought out many inventions" (Eccles. vii. 29) , and these inventions bring the evils upon him. The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, " But man is born unto trouble." This class of evils originates in man's vices, such as excessive desire for eating, drinking, and love; indulgence in these things in undue measure, or in improper manner, or partaking of bad food. This course brings diseases and afflictions upon body and soul alike. The sufferings of the body in consequence of these evils are well known ; those of the soul are twofold :--First, such evils of the soul as are the necessary consequence of changes in the body, in so far as the soul is a force residing in the body ; it has therefore been said that the properties of the soul depend on the condition of the body. Secondly, the soul, when accustomed to superfluous things, acquires a strong habit of desiring things which are neither necessary for the preservation of the individual nor for that of the species. This desire is without a limit, whilst things which are necessary are few in number and restricted within certain limits ; but what is superfluous is without end---e.g., you desire to have your vessels of silver, but golden vessels are still better : others have even vessels of sapphire, or perhaps they can be made of emerald or rubies, or any other substance that could be suggested. Those who are ignorant and perverse in their thought are constantly in trouble and pain, because they cannot get as much of superfluous thing, as a certain other person possesses. They as a rule expose themselves to great dangers, e.g., by sea voyage, or service of kings, and all this for the purpose of obtaining that which is superfluous and not necessary. When they thus meet with the consequences of the course which they adopt, they complain of the decrees and judgments of God ; they begin to blame the time, and wonder at the want of justice in its changes ; that it has not enabled them to acquire great riches, with which they could buy large quantities of wine for the purpose of making themselves drunk, and numerous concubines adorned with various
kind of ornaments of gold, embroidery, and jewels, for the purpose of driving themselves to voluptuousness beyond their capacities, as if the whole Universe existed exclusively for the purpose of giving pleasure to these low people. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe. Thus David says, "All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep His covenant and His testimonies" (Ps. xxv. IO). For those who observe the nature of the Universe and the commandments of the Law, and know their purpose, see clearly God's mercy and truth in everything; they seek, therefore, that which the Creator intended to be the aim of man, viz., comprehension. Forced by the claims of the body, they seek also that which is necessary for the preservation of the body, " bread to eat and garment to clothe," and this is very little ; but they seek nothing superfluous; with very slight exertion man can obtain it, so long as he is contented with that which is indispensable. All the difficulties and troubles we meet in this respect are due to the desire for superfluous things ; when we seek unnecessary things, we have difficulty even in finding that which is indispensable. For the more we desire to have that which is superfluous,the more we meet with difficulties ; our strength and possessions are spent in unnecessary things, and are wanting when required for that which is necessary. Observe how Nature proves the correctness of this assertion. The more necessary a thing is for living beings, the more easily it is found and the cheaper it is ; the less necessary it is, the rarer and dearer it is. E.g.,air, water, and food are indispensable to man : air is most necessary, for if man is without air a short time he dies ; whilst he can be without water a day or two. Air is also undoubtedly found more easily and cheaper [than water]. Water is more necessary than food ; for some people can be four or five days without food, provided they have water; water also exists in every country in larger quantities than food, and is also cheaper. The same proportion can be noticed in the different kinds of food; that which is more necessary in a certain place exists there in larger quantities and is cheaper than that which is less necessary. No intelligent person, I think, considers musk, amber, rubies, and emerald as very necessary for man except as medicines ; and they, as well as other like substances, can be replaced for this purpose by herbs and minerals. This shows the kindness of God to His creatures, even to us weak beings. His righteousness and justice as regards all animals are well known ; for in the transient world there is among the various kinds of animals no individual being distinguished from the rest of the same species by a peculiar property or an additional limb. On the contrary, all physical, psychical, and viral forces and organs that are possessed by one individual are found also in the other individuals. If any one is somehow different it is by accident, in consequence of some exception, and not by a natural property ; it is also a rare occurrence. There is no difference between individuals of a species in the due course of Nature ; the difference originates in the various dispositions of their substances. This is the necessary consequence of the nature of the substance of that species ; the nature of the species is not more favourable to one individual than to the other. It is no wrong or injustice that one has many bags of finest myrrh and garments embroidered with gold, while another has not those things, which are not necessary for our maintenance ; he who has them has not thereby obtained control over anything that could be an essential addition to his nature, but has only obtained something illusory or deceptive. The other, who does not possess that which is not wanted for his maintenance, does not miss anything indispensable : "He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack : they gathered every man according to his eating" (Exod. xvi. I8). This is the rule at all times and in all places ; no notice should be taken of exceptional cases,as we have explained. In these two ways you will see the mercy of God toward His creatures. how He has provided that which is required, in proper proportions, and treated all individual beings of the same species with perfect equality. In
accordance with this correct reflection the chief of the wise men says, "All his ways are judgment" (Deut. xxxli. 4) ; David likewise says: " All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth" (Ps. xxv. Io) ; he also says expressly, " The Lord is good .to fill; and his tender mercies are over all his works" (ibid. cxlv. 9) ; for it is an act of great and perfect goodness that He gave us existence ; and the creation of the controlling faculty in animals is a proof of His mercy towards them, as has been shown by us.
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Why would you ignore the words "it cannot be said" or what he said directly after that?Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good.
rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
- 21,928
- 4,687
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He actually goes into great detail to argue that man is mostly good. So why would you think he was arguing that man was given an evil inclination from God when man mostly does good.I disagree. I have never said we won't be judged for our acts.Where did I say otherwise?No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?Man has free will to do good or not do good."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Who gave man the ability to do evil?
Maimonides responds...
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
You're evading the question.
Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?
No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.
Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.
That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?
And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?
You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.
So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.
Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.
You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.
You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.
What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.
Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.
So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.
I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.
If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.
But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".
That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.
Can't twist out of that.
That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.
Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?
But putting that aside, I am saying exactly the same thing that Maimonides is saying, so you are accusing him of what you are accusing me of.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
And yet Maimonides doesn't deny the evil inclination,
and you do everything you can to make it seem as if he did.
Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
The one who argues against Maimonides is you,
picking what fits your delusions and ignoring the rest of the text,
does not mean he argues your case, rather demonstrates your ignorance.
MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things ; many sayings and songs of the nations dwell on this idea. They say that a good thing is found only exceptionally, whilst evil things are numerous and lasting. Not only common people make this mistake, but even many who believe that they are wise. A1-Razi wrote a well-known book On Metaphysics [or Theology]. Among other mad and foolish things, it contains also the idea, discovered by him, that there exists more evil than good. For if the happiness of man and his pleasure in the times of prosperity be compared with the mishaps that befall him,--such as grief, acute pain, defects, paralysis of the limbs, fears, anxieties, and troubles,--it would seem as if the existence of man is a punishment and a great evil for him. This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. The origin of the error is to be found in the circumstance that this ignorant man, and his party among the common people, judge the whole universe by examining one single person. For an ignorant man believes that the whole universe only exists for him ; as if nothing else required any consideration. If, therefore anything happens to him contrary to his expectation, he at once concludes that the whole universe is evil. If, however, he would take into consideration the whole universe, form an idea of it, and comprehend what a small portion he is of the Universe, he will find the truth. For it is clear that persons who have fallen into this widespread error as regards the multitude of evils in the world, do not find the evils among the angels, the spheres and stars, the elements, and that which is formed of them, viz., minerals and plants, or in the various species of living beings, but only in some individual instances of mankind. They wonder that a person, who became leprous in consequence of bad food, should be afflicted with so great an illness and suffer such a misfortune ; or that he who indulges so much in sensuality as to weaken his sight, should be struck with blindness and the like. What we have, in truth, to consider is this :--The whole mankind at present in existence, and a fortiori, every other species of animals, form an infinitesimal portion of the permanent universe. Comp. "Man is like to vanity" (Ps. cxliv. 4) ; " How much less man, that is a worm ; and the son of man, which is a worm" (Job xxv. 6) ; "How much less in them who dwell in houses of clay " (ibid. iv. I9) ; " Behold, the nations are as a drop of the bucket" (Isa. xl. 15). There are many other passages in the books of the prophets expressing the same idea. It is of great advantage that man should know his station, and not erroneously imagine that the whole universe exists only for him. We hold that the universe exists because the Creator wills it so ; that mankind is low in rank as compared with the uppermost portion of the universe, viz., with the spheres and the stars ; but, as regards the angels, there cannot be any real comparison between man and angels, although man is the highest of all beings on earth ; i.e., of all beings formed of the four elements. Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! Comp. "Is destruction his [work] No. Ye [who call yourselves] wrongly his sons, you who are a perverse and crooked generation" (Deut. xxxii. 5). This is explained by Solomon, who says, "The foolishness of man perverteth his way, and his heart fretteth against the Lord" (Prov. xix. 3). I explain this theory in the following manner. The evils that befall man are of three kinds : (I) The first kind of evil is that which is caused to man by the circumstance that he is subject to genesis and destruction, or that he possesses a body. It is on account of the body that some persons happen to have great deformities or paralysis of some of the organs. This evil may be part of the natural constitution of these persons, or may have developed subsequently in consequence of changes in the elements, e.g., through bad air, or thunderstorms, or landslips. We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear. He who thinks that he can have flesh and bones without being subject to any external influence, or any of the accidents of matter, unconsciously wishes to reconcile two opposites, viz., to be at the same time subject and not subject to change. If man were never subject to change there could be no generation ; there would be one single being, but no individuals forming a species. Galen, in the third section of his book, The Use of the Limbs, says correctly that it would be in vain to expect to see living beings formed of the blood of menstruous women and the semen virile, who will not die, will never feel pain, or will move perpetually, or will shine like the sun. This dictum of Galen is part of the following more general proposition :--Whatever is formed of any matter receives the most perfect form possible in that species of matter ; in each individual case the defects are in accordance with the defects of that individual matter. The best and most perfect being that can be formed of the blood and the semen is the species of man, for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil. You will, nevertheless, find that the evils of the above kind which befall man are very few and rare ; for you find countries that have not been flooded or burned for thousands of years ; there are thousands of men in perfect health, deformed individuals are a strange and exceptional occurrence, or say few in number if you object to the term exceptional,--they are not one-hundredth, not even one-thousandth part of those that are perfectly normal. (2) The second class of evils comprises such evils as people cause to each other, when, e.g., some of them use their strength against others. These evils are more numerous than those of the first kind ; their causes are numerous and known; they likewise originate in ourselves, though the sufferer himself cannot avert them. This kind of evil is nevertheless not widespread in any country of the whole world. It is of rare occurrence that a man plans to kill his neighbour or to rob him of his property by night. Many persons are, however, afflicted with this kind of evil in great wars ; but these are not frequent, if the whole inhabited part of the earth is taken into consideration. (3) The third class of evil comprises those which every one causes to himself by his own action. This is the largest class, and is far more numerous than the second class. It is especially of these evils that all men complain,-- only few men are found that do not sin against themselves by this kind of evil. Those that are afflicted with it are therefore justly blamed in the words of the prophet, " This hath been by your means " (Mal. i. 9) ; the same is expressed in the following passage, " He that doeth it destroyeth his own soul" (Prov. vi. 32). In reference to this kind of evil, Solomon says, " The foolishness of man perverteth his way" Obid. xix. 3). In the following passage he explains also that this kind of evil is man's own work, " Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright, but they have thought out many inventions" (Eccles. vii. 29) , and these inventions bring the evils upon him. The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, " But man is born unto trouble." This class of evils originates in man's vices, such as excessive desire for eating, drinking, and love; indulgence in these things in undue measure, or in improper manner, or partaking of bad food. This course brings diseases and afflictions upon body and soul alike. The sufferings of the body in consequence of these evils are well known ; those of the soul are twofold :--First, such evils of the soul as are the necessary consequence of changes in the body, in so far as the soul is a force residing in the body ; it has therefore been said that the properties of the soul depend on the condition of the body. Secondly, the soul, when accustomed to superfluous things, acquires a strong habit of desiring things which are neither necessary for the preservation of the individual nor for that of the species. This desire is without a limit, whilst things which are necessary are few in number and restricted within certain limits ; but what is superfluous is without end---e.g., you desire to have your vessels of silver, but golden vessels are still better : others have even vessels of sapphire, or perhaps they can be made of emerald or rubies, or any other substance that could be suggested. Those who are ignorant and perverse in their thought are constantly in trouble and pain, because they cannot get as much of superfluous thing, as a certain other person possesses. They as a rule expose themselves to great dangers, e.g., by sea voyage, or service of kings, and all this for the purpose of obtaining that which is superfluous and not necessary. When they thus meet with the consequences of the course which they adopt, they complain of the decrees and judgments of God ; they begin to blame the time, and wonder at the want of justice in its changes ; that it has not enabled them to acquire great riches, with which they could buy large quantities of wine for the purpose of making themselves drunk, and numerous concubines adorned with various
kind of ornaments of gold, embroidery, and jewels, for the purpose of driving themselves to voluptuousness beyond their capacities, as if the whole Universe existed exclusively for the purpose of giving pleasure to these low people. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe. Thus David says, "All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep His covenant and His testimonies" (Ps. xxv. IO). For those who observe the nature of the Universe and the commandments of the Law, and know their purpose, see clearly God's mercy and truth in everything; they seek, therefore, that which the Creator intended to be the aim of man, viz., comprehension. Forced by the claims of the body, they seek also that which is necessary for the preservation of the body, " bread to eat and garment to clothe," and this is very little ; but they seek nothing superfluous; with very slight exertion man can obtain it, so long as he is contented with that which is indispensable. All the difficulties and troubles we meet in this respect are due to the desire for superfluous things ; when we seek unnecessary things, we have difficulty even in finding that which is indispensable. For the more we desire to have that which is superfluous,the more we meet with difficulties ; our strength and possessions are spent in unnecessary things, and are wanting when required for that which is necessary. Observe how Nature proves the correctness of this assertion. The more necessary a thing is for living beings, the more easily it is found and the cheaper it is ; the less necessary it is, the rarer and dearer it is. E.g.,air, water, and food are indispensable to man : air is most necessary, for if man is without air a short time he dies ; whilst he can be without water a day or two. Air is also undoubtedly found more easily and cheaper [than water]. Water is more necessary than food ; for some people can be four or five days without food, provided they have water; water also exists in every country in larger quantities than food, and is also cheaper. The same proportion can be noticed in the different kinds of food; that which is more necessary in a certain place exists there in larger quantities and is cheaper than that which is less necessary. No intelligent person, I think, considers musk, amber, rubies, and emerald as very necessary for man except as medicines ; and they, as well as other like substances, can be replaced for this purpose by herbs and minerals. This shows the kindness of God to His creatures, even to us weak beings. His righteousness and justice as regards all animals are well known ; for in the transient world there is among the various kinds of animals no individual being distinguished from the rest of the same species by a peculiar property or an additional limb. On the contrary, all physical, psychical, and viral forces and organs that are possessed by one individual are found also in the other individuals. If any one is somehow different it is by accident, in consequence of some exception, and not by a natural property ; it is also a rare occurrence. There is no difference between individuals of a species in the due course of Nature ; the difference originates in the various dispositions of their substances. This is the necessary consequence of the nature of the substance of that species ; the nature of the species is not more favourable to one individual than to the other. It is no wrong or injustice that one has many bags of finest myrrh and garments embroidered with gold, while another has not those things, which are not necessary for our maintenance ; he who has them has not thereby obtained control over anything that could be an essential addition to his nature, but has only obtained something illusory or deceptive. The other, who does not possess that which is not wanted for his maintenance, does not miss anything indispensable : "He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack : they gathered every man according to his eating" (Exod. xvi. I8). This is the rule at all times and in all places ; no notice should be taken of exceptional cases,as we have explained. In these two ways you will see the mercy of God toward His creatures. how He has provided that which is required, in proper proportions, and treated all individual beings of the same species with perfect equality. In
accordance with this correct reflection the chief of the wise men says, "All his ways are judgment" (Deut. xxxli. 4) ; David likewise says: " All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth" (Ps. xxv. Io) ; he also says expressly, " The Lord is good .to fill; and his tender mercies are over all his works" (ibid. cxlv. 9) ; for it is an act of great and perfect goodness that He gave us existence ; and the creation of the controlling faculty in animals is a proof of His mercy towards them, as has been shown by us.
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
I can post again where Mamonides writes about man's evil inclination,
and you can continue sidestep to pretend otherwise.
Denial is your choice.
It's pretty disturbing that you took what Maimonides said about God not directly creating evil or the intention to produce evil and turned it into God directly created evil.I disagree. I have never said we won't be judged for our acts.Where did I say otherwise?No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?Man has free will to do good or not do good."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Who gave man the ability to do evil?
Maimonides responds...
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
You're evading the question.
Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?
No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.
Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.
That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?
And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?
You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.
So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.
Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.
You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.
You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.
What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.
Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.
So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.
I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.
If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.
But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".
That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.
Can't twist out of that.
That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.
Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?
But putting that aside, I am saying exactly the same thing that Maimonides is saying, so you are accusing him of what you are accusing me of.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
And yet Maimonides doesn't deny the evil inclination,
and you do everything you can to make it seem as if he did.
Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
The one who argues against Maimonides is you,
picking what fits your delusions and ignoring the rest of the text,
does not mean he argues your case, rather demonstrates your ignorance.
"...It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good..." Maimonides
You literally just attributed Maimonides as saying God directly created evil when Maimonides said the exact opposite.He actually goes into great detail to argue that man is mostly good. So why would you think he was arguing that man was given an evil inclination from God when man mostly does good.I disagree. I have never said we won't be judged for our acts.Where did I say otherwise?No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?Man has free will to do good or not do good."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Who gave man the ability to do evil?
Maimonides responds...
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
You're evading the question.
Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?
No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.
Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.
That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?
And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?
You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.
So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.
Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.
You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.
You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.
What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.
Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.
So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.
I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.
If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.
But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".
That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.
Can't twist out of that.
That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.
Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?
But putting that aside, I am saying exactly the same thing that Maimonides is saying, so you are accusing him of what you are accusing me of.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
And yet Maimonides doesn't deny the evil inclination,
and you do everything you can to make it seem as if he did.
Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
The one who argues against Maimonides is you,
picking what fits your delusions and ignoring the rest of the text,
does not mean he argues your case, rather demonstrates your ignorance.
MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things ; many sayings and songs of the nations dwell on this idea. They say that a good thing is found only exceptionally, whilst evil things are numerous and lasting. Not only common people make this mistake, but even many who believe that they are wise. A1-Razi wrote a well-known book On Metaphysics [or Theology]. Among other mad and foolish things, it contains also the idea, discovered by him, that there exists more evil than good. For if the happiness of man and his pleasure in the times of prosperity be compared with the mishaps that befall him,--such as grief, acute pain, defects, paralysis of the limbs, fears, anxieties, and troubles,--it would seem as if the existence of man is a punishment and a great evil for him. This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. The origin of the error is to be found in the circumstance that this ignorant man, and his party among the common people, judge the whole universe by examining one single person. For an ignorant man believes that the whole universe only exists for him ; as if nothing else required any consideration. If, therefore anything happens to him contrary to his expectation, he at once concludes that the whole universe is evil. If, however, he would take into consideration the whole universe, form an idea of it, and comprehend what a small portion he is of the Universe, he will find the truth. For it is clear that persons who have fallen into this widespread error as regards the multitude of evils in the world, do not find the evils among the angels, the spheres and stars, the elements, and that which is formed of them, viz., minerals and plants, or in the various species of living beings, but only in some individual instances of mankind. They wonder that a person, who became leprous in consequence of bad food, should be afflicted with so great an illness and suffer such a misfortune ; or that he who indulges so much in sensuality as to weaken his sight, should be struck with blindness and the like. What we have, in truth, to consider is this :--The whole mankind at present in existence, and a fortiori, every other species of animals, form an infinitesimal portion of the permanent universe. Comp. "Man is like to vanity" (Ps. cxliv. 4) ; " How much less man, that is a worm ; and the son of man, which is a worm" (Job xxv. 6) ; "How much less in them who dwell in houses of clay " (ibid. iv. I9) ; " Behold, the nations are as a drop of the bucket" (Isa. xl. 15). There are many other passages in the books of the prophets expressing the same idea. It is of great advantage that man should know his station, and not erroneously imagine that the whole universe exists only for him. We hold that the universe exists because the Creator wills it so ; that mankind is low in rank as compared with the uppermost portion of the universe, viz., with the spheres and the stars ; but, as regards the angels, there cannot be any real comparison between man and angels, although man is the highest of all beings on earth ; i.e., of all beings formed of the four elements. Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! Comp. "Is destruction his [work] No. Ye [who call yourselves] wrongly his sons, you who are a perverse and crooked generation" (Deut. xxxii. 5). This is explained by Solomon, who says, "The foolishness of man perverteth his way, and his heart fretteth against the Lord" (Prov. xix. 3). I explain this theory in the following manner. The evils that befall man are of three kinds : (I) The first kind of evil is that which is caused to man by the circumstance that he is subject to genesis and destruction, or that he possesses a body. It is on account of the body that some persons happen to have great deformities or paralysis of some of the organs. This evil may be part of the natural constitution of these persons, or may have developed subsequently in consequence of changes in the elements, e.g., through bad air, or thunderstorms, or landslips. We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear. He who thinks that he can have flesh and bones without being subject to any external influence, or any of the accidents of matter, unconsciously wishes to reconcile two opposites, viz., to be at the same time subject and not subject to change. If man were never subject to change there could be no generation ; there would be one single being, but no individuals forming a species. Galen, in the third section of his book, The Use of the Limbs, says correctly that it would be in vain to expect to see living beings formed of the blood of menstruous women and the semen virile, who will not die, will never feel pain, or will move perpetually, or will shine like the sun. This dictum of Galen is part of the following more general proposition :--Whatever is formed of any matter receives the most perfect form possible in that species of matter ; in each individual case the defects are in accordance with the defects of that individual matter. The best and most perfect being that can be formed of the blood and the semen is the species of man, for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil. You will, nevertheless, find that the evils of the above kind which befall man are very few and rare ; for you find countries that have not been flooded or burned for thousands of years ; there are thousands of men in perfect health, deformed individuals are a strange and exceptional occurrence, or say few in number if you object to the term exceptional,--they are not one-hundredth, not even one-thousandth part of those that are perfectly normal. (2) The second class of evils comprises such evils as people cause to each other, when, e.g., some of them use their strength against others. These evils are more numerous than those of the first kind ; their causes are numerous and known; they likewise originate in ourselves, though the sufferer himself cannot avert them. This kind of evil is nevertheless not widespread in any country of the whole world. It is of rare occurrence that a man plans to kill his neighbour or to rob him of his property by night. Many persons are, however, afflicted with this kind of evil in great wars ; but these are not frequent, if the whole inhabited part of the earth is taken into consideration. (3) The third class of evil comprises those which every one causes to himself by his own action. This is the largest class, and is far more numerous than the second class. It is especially of these evils that all men complain,-- only few men are found that do not sin against themselves by this kind of evil. Those that are afflicted with it are therefore justly blamed in the words of the prophet, " This hath been by your means " (Mal. i. 9) ; the same is expressed in the following passage, " He that doeth it destroyeth his own soul" (Prov. vi. 32). In reference to this kind of evil, Solomon says, " The foolishness of man perverteth his way" Obid. xix. 3). In the following passage he explains also that this kind of evil is man's own work, " Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright, but they have thought out many inventions" (Eccles. vii. 29) , and these inventions bring the evils upon him. The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, " But man is born unto trouble." This class of evils originates in man's vices, such as excessive desire for eating, drinking, and love; indulgence in these things in undue measure, or in improper manner, or partaking of bad food. This course brings diseases and afflictions upon body and soul alike. The sufferings of the body in consequence of these evils are well known ; those of the soul are twofold :--First, such evils of the soul as are the necessary consequence of changes in the body, in so far as the soul is a force residing in the body ; it has therefore been said that the properties of the soul depend on the condition of the body. Secondly, the soul, when accustomed to superfluous things, acquires a strong habit of desiring things which are neither necessary for the preservation of the individual nor for that of the species. This desire is without a limit, whilst things which are necessary are few in number and restricted within certain limits ; but what is superfluous is without end---e.g., you desire to have your vessels of silver, but golden vessels are still better : others have even vessels of sapphire, or perhaps they can be made of emerald or rubies, or any other substance that could be suggested. Those who are ignorant and perverse in their thought are constantly in trouble and pain, because they cannot get as much of superfluous thing, as a certain other person possesses. They as a rule expose themselves to great dangers, e.g., by sea voyage, or service of kings, and all this for the purpose of obtaining that which is superfluous and not necessary. When they thus meet with the consequences of the course which they adopt, they complain of the decrees and judgments of God ; they begin to blame the time, and wonder at the want of justice in its changes ; that it has not enabled them to acquire great riches, with which they could buy large quantities of wine for the purpose of making themselves drunk, and numerous concubines adorned with various
kind of ornaments of gold, embroidery, and jewels, for the purpose of driving themselves to voluptuousness beyond their capacities, as if the whole Universe existed exclusively for the purpose of giving pleasure to these low people. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe. Thus David says, "All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep His covenant and His testimonies" (Ps. xxv. IO). For those who observe the nature of the Universe and the commandments of the Law, and know their purpose, see clearly God's mercy and truth in everything; they seek, therefore, that which the Creator intended to be the aim of man, viz., comprehension. Forced by the claims of the body, they seek also that which is necessary for the preservation of the body, " bread to eat and garment to clothe," and this is very little ; but they seek nothing superfluous; with very slight exertion man can obtain it, so long as he is contented with that which is indispensable. All the difficulties and troubles we meet in this respect are due to the desire for superfluous things ; when we seek unnecessary things, we have difficulty even in finding that which is indispensable. For the more we desire to have that which is superfluous,the more we meet with difficulties ; our strength and possessions are spent in unnecessary things, and are wanting when required for that which is necessary. Observe how Nature proves the correctness of this assertion. The more necessary a thing is for living beings, the more easily it is found and the cheaper it is ; the less necessary it is, the rarer and dearer it is. E.g.,air, water, and food are indispensable to man : air is most necessary, for if man is without air a short time he dies ; whilst he can be without water a day or two. Air is also undoubtedly found more easily and cheaper [than water]. Water is more necessary than food ; for some people can be four or five days without food, provided they have water; water also exists in every country in larger quantities than food, and is also cheaper. The same proportion can be noticed in the different kinds of food; that which is more necessary in a certain place exists there in larger quantities and is cheaper than that which is less necessary. No intelligent person, I think, considers musk, amber, rubies, and emerald as very necessary for man except as medicines ; and they, as well as other like substances, can be replaced for this purpose by herbs and minerals. This shows the kindness of God to His creatures, even to us weak beings. His righteousness and justice as regards all animals are well known ; for in the transient world there is among the various kinds of animals no individual being distinguished from the rest of the same species by a peculiar property or an additional limb. On the contrary, all physical, psychical, and viral forces and organs that are possessed by one individual are found also in the other individuals. If any one is somehow different it is by accident, in consequence of some exception, and not by a natural property ; it is also a rare occurrence. There is no difference between individuals of a species in the due course of Nature ; the difference originates in the various dispositions of their substances. This is the necessary consequence of the nature of the substance of that species ; the nature of the species is not more favourable to one individual than to the other. It is no wrong or injustice that one has many bags of finest myrrh and garments embroidered with gold, while another has not those things, which are not necessary for our maintenance ; he who has them has not thereby obtained control over anything that could be an essential addition to his nature, but has only obtained something illusory or deceptive. The other, who does not possess that which is not wanted for his maintenance, does not miss anything indispensable : "He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack : they gathered every man according to his eating" (Exod. xvi. I8). This is the rule at all times and in all places ; no notice should be taken of exceptional cases,as we have explained. In these two ways you will see the mercy of God toward His creatures. how He has provided that which is required, in proper proportions, and treated all individual beings of the same species with perfect equality. In
accordance with this correct reflection the chief of the wise men says, "All his ways are judgment" (Deut. xxxli. 4) ; David likewise says: " All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth" (Ps. xxv. Io) ; he also says expressly, " The Lord is good .to fill; and his tender mercies are over all his works" (ibid. cxlv. 9) ; for it is an act of great and perfect goodness that He gave us existence ; and the creation of the controlling faculty in animals is a proof of His mercy towards them, as has been shown by us.
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
I can post again where Maimonides writes about man's evil inclination,
and you can continue sidestep to pretend otherwise.
Denial is your choice.
Yes, please post that. Let's compare what he said side by side.He actually goes into great detail to argue that man is mostly good. So why would you think he was arguing that man was given an evil inclination from God when man mostly does good.I disagree. I have never said we won't be judged for our acts.Where did I say otherwise?No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?Man has free will to do good or not do good."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Who gave man the ability to do evil?
Maimonides responds...
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
You're evading the question.
Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?
No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.
Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.
That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?
And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?
You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.
So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.
Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.
You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.
You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.
What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.
Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.
So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.
I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.
If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.
But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".
That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.
Can't twist out of that.
That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.
Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?
But putting that aside, I am saying exactly the same thing that Maimonides is saying, so you are accusing him of what you are accusing me of.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
And yet Maimonides doesn't deny the evil inclination,
and you do everything you can to make it seem as if he did.
Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
The one who argues against Maimonides is you,
picking what fits your delusions and ignoring the rest of the text,
does not mean he argues your case, rather demonstrates your ignorance.
MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things ; many sayings and songs of the nations dwell on this idea. They say that a good thing is found only exceptionally, whilst evil things are numerous and lasting. Not only common people make this mistake, but even many who believe that they are wise. A1-Razi wrote a well-known book On Metaphysics [or Theology]. Among other mad and foolish things, it contains also the idea, discovered by him, that there exists more evil than good. For if the happiness of man and his pleasure in the times of prosperity be compared with the mishaps that befall him,--such as grief, acute pain, defects, paralysis of the limbs, fears, anxieties, and troubles,--it would seem as if the existence of man is a punishment and a great evil for him. This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. The origin of the error is to be found in the circumstance that this ignorant man, and his party among the common people, judge the whole universe by examining one single person. For an ignorant man believes that the whole universe only exists for him ; as if nothing else required any consideration. If, therefore anything happens to him contrary to his expectation, he at once concludes that the whole universe is evil. If, however, he would take into consideration the whole universe, form an idea of it, and comprehend what a small portion he is of the Universe, he will find the truth. For it is clear that persons who have fallen into this widespread error as regards the multitude of evils in the world, do not find the evils among the angels, the spheres and stars, the elements, and that which is formed of them, viz., minerals and plants, or in the various species of living beings, but only in some individual instances of mankind. They wonder that a person, who became leprous in consequence of bad food, should be afflicted with so great an illness and suffer such a misfortune ; or that he who indulges so much in sensuality as to weaken his sight, should be struck with blindness and the like. What we have, in truth, to consider is this :--The whole mankind at present in existence, and a fortiori, every other species of animals, form an infinitesimal portion of the permanent universe. Comp. "Man is like to vanity" (Ps. cxliv. 4) ; " How much less man, that is a worm ; and the son of man, which is a worm" (Job xxv. 6) ; "How much less in them who dwell in houses of clay " (ibid. iv. I9) ; " Behold, the nations are as a drop of the bucket" (Isa. xl. 15). There are many other passages in the books of the prophets expressing the same idea. It is of great advantage that man should know his station, and not erroneously imagine that the whole universe exists only for him. We hold that the universe exists because the Creator wills it so ; that mankind is low in rank as compared with the uppermost portion of the universe, viz., with the spheres and the stars ; but, as regards the angels, there cannot be any real comparison between man and angels, although man is the highest of all beings on earth ; i.e., of all beings formed of the four elements. Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! Comp. "Is destruction his [work] No. Ye [who call yourselves] wrongly his sons, you who are a perverse and crooked generation" (Deut. xxxii. 5). This is explained by Solomon, who says, "The foolishness of man perverteth his way, and his heart fretteth against the Lord" (Prov. xix. 3). I explain this theory in the following manner. The evils that befall man are of three kinds : (I) The first kind of evil is that which is caused to man by the circumstance that he is subject to genesis and destruction, or that he possesses a body. It is on account of the body that some persons happen to have great deformities or paralysis of some of the organs. This evil may be part of the natural constitution of these persons, or may have developed subsequently in consequence of changes in the elements, e.g., through bad air, or thunderstorms, or landslips. We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear. He who thinks that he can have flesh and bones without being subject to any external influence, or any of the accidents of matter, unconsciously wishes to reconcile two opposites, viz., to be at the same time subject and not subject to change. If man were never subject to change there could be no generation ; there would be one single being, but no individuals forming a species. Galen, in the third section of his book, The Use of the Limbs, says correctly that it would be in vain to expect to see living beings formed of the blood of menstruous women and the semen virile, who will not die, will never feel pain, or will move perpetually, or will shine like the sun. This dictum of Galen is part of the following more general proposition :--Whatever is formed of any matter receives the most perfect form possible in that species of matter ; in each individual case the defects are in accordance with the defects of that individual matter. The best and most perfect being that can be formed of the blood and the semen is the species of man, for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil. You will, nevertheless, find that the evils of the above kind which befall man are very few and rare ; for you find countries that have not been flooded or burned for thousands of years ; there are thousands of men in perfect health, deformed individuals are a strange and exceptional occurrence, or say few in number if you object to the term exceptional,--they are not one-hundredth, not even one-thousandth part of those that are perfectly normal. (2) The second class of evils comprises such evils as people cause to each other, when, e.g., some of them use their strength against others. These evils are more numerous than those of the first kind ; their causes are numerous and known; they likewise originate in ourselves, though the sufferer himself cannot avert them. This kind of evil is nevertheless not widespread in any country of the whole world. It is of rare occurrence that a man plans to kill his neighbour or to rob him of his property by night. Many persons are, however, afflicted with this kind of evil in great wars ; but these are not frequent, if the whole inhabited part of the earth is taken into consideration. (3) The third class of evil comprises those which every one causes to himself by his own action. This is the largest class, and is far more numerous than the second class. It is especially of these evils that all men complain,-- only few men are found that do not sin against themselves by this kind of evil. Those that are afflicted with it are therefore justly blamed in the words of the prophet, " This hath been by your means " (Mal. i. 9) ; the same is expressed in the following passage, " He that doeth it destroyeth his own soul" (Prov. vi. 32). In reference to this kind of evil, Solomon says, " The foolishness of man perverteth his way" Obid. xix. 3). In the following passage he explains also that this kind of evil is man's own work, " Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright, but they have thought out many inventions" (Eccles. vii. 29) , and these inventions bring the evils upon him. The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, " But man is born unto trouble." This class of evils originates in man's vices, such as excessive desire for eating, drinking, and love; indulgence in these things in undue measure, or in improper manner, or partaking of bad food. This course brings diseases and afflictions upon body and soul alike. The sufferings of the body in consequence of these evils are well known ; those of the soul are twofold :--First, such evils of the soul as are the necessary consequence of changes in the body, in so far as the soul is a force residing in the body ; it has therefore been said that the properties of the soul depend on the condition of the body. Secondly, the soul, when accustomed to superfluous things, acquires a strong habit of desiring things which are neither necessary for the preservation of the individual nor for that of the species. This desire is without a limit, whilst things which are necessary are few in number and restricted within certain limits ; but what is superfluous is without end---e.g., you desire to have your vessels of silver, but golden vessels are still better : others have even vessels of sapphire, or perhaps they can be made of emerald or rubies, or any other substance that could be suggested. Those who are ignorant and perverse in their thought are constantly in trouble and pain, because they cannot get as much of superfluous thing, as a certain other person possesses. They as a rule expose themselves to great dangers, e.g., by sea voyage, or service of kings, and all this for the purpose of obtaining that which is superfluous and not necessary. When they thus meet with the consequences of the course which they adopt, they complain of the decrees and judgments of God ; they begin to blame the time, and wonder at the want of justice in its changes ; that it has not enabled them to acquire great riches, with which they could buy large quantities of wine for the purpose of making themselves drunk, and numerous concubines adorned with various
kind of ornaments of gold, embroidery, and jewels, for the purpose of driving themselves to voluptuousness beyond their capacities, as if the whole Universe existed exclusively for the purpose of giving pleasure to these low people. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe. Thus David says, "All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep His covenant and His testimonies" (Ps. xxv. IO). For those who observe the nature of the Universe and the commandments of the Law, and know their purpose, see clearly God's mercy and truth in everything; they seek, therefore, that which the Creator intended to be the aim of man, viz., comprehension. Forced by the claims of the body, they seek also that which is necessary for the preservation of the body, " bread to eat and garment to clothe," and this is very little ; but they seek nothing superfluous; with very slight exertion man can obtain it, so long as he is contented with that which is indispensable. All the difficulties and troubles we meet in this respect are due to the desire for superfluous things ; when we seek unnecessary things, we have difficulty even in finding that which is indispensable. For the more we desire to have that which is superfluous,the more we meet with difficulties ; our strength and possessions are spent in unnecessary things, and are wanting when required for that which is necessary. Observe how Nature proves the correctness of this assertion. The more necessary a thing is for living beings, the more easily it is found and the cheaper it is ; the less necessary it is, the rarer and dearer it is. E.g.,air, water, and food are indispensable to man : air is most necessary, for if man is without air a short time he dies ; whilst he can be without water a day or two. Air is also undoubtedly found more easily and cheaper [than water]. Water is more necessary than food ; for some people can be four or five days without food, provided they have water; water also exists in every country in larger quantities than food, and is also cheaper. The same proportion can be noticed in the different kinds of food; that which is more necessary in a certain place exists there in larger quantities and is cheaper than that which is less necessary. No intelligent person, I think, considers musk, amber, rubies, and emerald as very necessary for man except as medicines ; and they, as well as other like substances, can be replaced for this purpose by herbs and minerals. This shows the kindness of God to His creatures, even to us weak beings. His righteousness and justice as regards all animals are well known ; for in the transient world there is among the various kinds of animals no individual being distinguished from the rest of the same species by a peculiar property or an additional limb. On the contrary, all physical, psychical, and viral forces and organs that are possessed by one individual are found also in the other individuals. If any one is somehow different it is by accident, in consequence of some exception, and not by a natural property ; it is also a rare occurrence. There is no difference between individuals of a species in the due course of Nature ; the difference originates in the various dispositions of their substances. This is the necessary consequence of the nature of the substance of that species ; the nature of the species is not more favourable to one individual than to the other. It is no wrong or injustice that one has many bags of finest myrrh and garments embroidered with gold, while another has not those things, which are not necessary for our maintenance ; he who has them has not thereby obtained control over anything that could be an essential addition to his nature, but has only obtained something illusory or deceptive. The other, who does not possess that which is not wanted for his maintenance, does not miss anything indispensable : "He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack : they gathered every man according to his eating" (Exod. xvi. I8). This is the rule at all times and in all places ; no notice should be taken of exceptional cases,as we have explained. In these two ways you will see the mercy of God toward His creatures. how He has provided that which is required, in proper proportions, and treated all individual beings of the same species with perfect equality. In
accordance with this correct reflection the chief of the wise men says, "All his ways are judgment" (Deut. xxxli. 4) ; David likewise says: " All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth" (Ps. xxv. Io) ; he also says expressly, " The Lord is good .to fill; and his tender mercies are over all his works" (ibid. cxlv. 9) ; for it is an act of great and perfect goodness that He gave us existence ; and the creation of the controlling faculty in animals is a proof of His mercy towards them, as has been shown by us.
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
I can post again where Mamonides writes about man's evil inclination,
and you can continue sidestep to pretend otherwise.
Denial is your choice.
rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
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Why would you ignore the words "it cannot be said" or what he said directly after that?Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good.
Seriously, you're that simple minded,
you thought I didn't see the 'cannot'??
I think you don't even understand that you're quoting the exact sentences
that point exactly to what you intend to deny.
Tell me, does the sentence connote evil is not produced?
Maimonides said God did not directly create evil or had the direct intention to produce evil.Why would you ignore the words "it cannot be said" or what he said directly after that?Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good.
Seriously, you're that simple minded,
you thought I didn't see the 'cannot'??
I think you don't even understand that you're quoting the exact sentences
that point exactly to what you intend to deny.
Tell me, does the sentence connote evil is not produced?
Which is the opposite of giving man an evil inclination which would have been intended to produce evil.
No. I think you are that dishonest.Seriously, you're that simple minded,
you thought I didn't see the 'cannot'??
rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
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You literally just attributed Maimonides as saying God directly created evil when Maimonides said the exact opposite.He actually goes into great detail to argue that man is mostly good. So why would you think he was arguing that man was given an evil inclination from God when man mostly does good.I disagree. I have never said we won't be judged for our acts.Where did I say otherwise?No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?Man has free will to do good or not do good."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Who gave man the ability to do evil?
Maimonides responds...
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
You're evading the question.
Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?
No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.
Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.
That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?
And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?
You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.
So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.
Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.
You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.
You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.
What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.
Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.
So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.
I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.
If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.
But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".
That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.
Can't twist out of that.
That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.
Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?
But putting that aside, I am saying exactly the same thing that Maimonides is saying, so you are accusing him of what you are accusing me of.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
And yet Maimonides doesn't deny the evil inclination,
and you do everything you can to make it seem as if he did.
Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
The one who argues against Maimonides is you,
picking what fits your delusions and ignoring the rest of the text,
does not mean he argues your case, rather demonstrates your ignorance.
MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things ; many sayings and songs of the nations dwell on this idea. They say that a good thing is found only exceptionally, whilst evil things are numerous and lasting. Not only common people make this mistake, but even many who believe that they are wise. A1-Razi wrote a well-known book On Metaphysics [or Theology]. Among other mad and foolish things, it contains also the idea, discovered by him, that there exists more evil than good. For if the happiness of man and his pleasure in the times of prosperity be compared with the mishaps that befall him,--such as grief, acute pain, defects, paralysis of the limbs, fears, anxieties, and troubles,--it would seem as if the existence of man is a punishment and a great evil for him. This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. The origin of the error is to be found in the circumstance that this ignorant man, and his party among the common people, judge the whole universe by examining one single person. For an ignorant man believes that the whole universe only exists for him ; as if nothing else required any consideration. If, therefore anything happens to him contrary to his expectation, he at once concludes that the whole universe is evil. If, however, he would take into consideration the whole universe, form an idea of it, and comprehend what a small portion he is of the Universe, he will find the truth. For it is clear that persons who have fallen into this widespread error as regards the multitude of evils in the world, do not find the evils among the angels, the spheres and stars, the elements, and that which is formed of them, viz., minerals and plants, or in the various species of living beings, but only in some individual instances of mankind. They wonder that a person, who became leprous in consequence of bad food, should be afflicted with so great an illness and suffer such a misfortune ; or that he who indulges so much in sensuality as to weaken his sight, should be struck with blindness and the like. What we have, in truth, to consider is this :--The whole mankind at present in existence, and a fortiori, every other species of animals, form an infinitesimal portion of the permanent universe. Comp. "Man is like to vanity" (Ps. cxliv. 4) ; " How much less man, that is a worm ; and the son of man, which is a worm" (Job xxv. 6) ; "How much less in them who dwell in houses of clay " (ibid. iv. I9) ; " Behold, the nations are as a drop of the bucket" (Isa. xl. 15). There are many other passages in the books of the prophets expressing the same idea. It is of great advantage that man should know his station, and not erroneously imagine that the whole universe exists only for him. We hold that the universe exists because the Creator wills it so ; that mankind is low in rank as compared with the uppermost portion of the universe, viz., with the spheres and the stars ; but, as regards the angels, there cannot be any real comparison between man and angels, although man is the highest of all beings on earth ; i.e., of all beings formed of the four elements. Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! Comp. "Is destruction his [work] No. Ye [who call yourselves] wrongly his sons, you who are a perverse and crooked generation" (Deut. xxxii. 5). This is explained by Solomon, who says, "The foolishness of man perverteth his way, and his heart fretteth against the Lord" (Prov. xix. 3). I explain this theory in the following manner. The evils that befall man are of three kinds : (I) The first kind of evil is that which is caused to man by the circumstance that he is subject to genesis and destruction, or that he possesses a body. It is on account of the body that some persons happen to have great deformities or paralysis of some of the organs. This evil may be part of the natural constitution of these persons, or may have developed subsequently in consequence of changes in the elements, e.g., through bad air, or thunderstorms, or landslips. We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear. He who thinks that he can have flesh and bones without being subject to any external influence, or any of the accidents of matter, unconsciously wishes to reconcile two opposites, viz., to be at the same time subject and not subject to change. If man were never subject to change there could be no generation ; there would be one single being, but no individuals forming a species. Galen, in the third section of his book, The Use of the Limbs, says correctly that it would be in vain to expect to see living beings formed of the blood of menstruous women and the semen virile, who will not die, will never feel pain, or will move perpetually, or will shine like the sun. This dictum of Galen is part of the following more general proposition :--Whatever is formed of any matter receives the most perfect form possible in that species of matter ; in each individual case the defects are in accordance with the defects of that individual matter. The best and most perfect being that can be formed of the blood and the semen is the species of man, for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil. You will, nevertheless, find that the evils of the above kind which befall man are very few and rare ; for you find countries that have not been flooded or burned for thousands of years ; there are thousands of men in perfect health, deformed individuals are a strange and exceptional occurrence, or say few in number if you object to the term exceptional,--they are not one-hundredth, not even one-thousandth part of those that are perfectly normal. (2) The second class of evils comprises such evils as people cause to each other, when, e.g., some of them use their strength against others. These evils are more numerous than those of the first kind ; their causes are numerous and known; they likewise originate in ourselves, though the sufferer himself cannot avert them. This kind of evil is nevertheless not widespread in any country of the whole world. It is of rare occurrence that a man plans to kill his neighbour or to rob him of his property by night. Many persons are, however, afflicted with this kind of evil in great wars ; but these are not frequent, if the whole inhabited part of the earth is taken into consideration. (3) The third class of evil comprises those which every one causes to himself by his own action. This is the largest class, and is far more numerous than the second class. It is especially of these evils that all men complain,-- only few men are found that do not sin against themselves by this kind of evil. Those that are afflicted with it are therefore justly blamed in the words of the prophet, " This hath been by your means " (Mal. i. 9) ; the same is expressed in the following passage, " He that doeth it destroyeth his own soul" (Prov. vi. 32). In reference to this kind of evil, Solomon says, " The foolishness of man perverteth his way" Obid. xix. 3). In the following passage he explains also that this kind of evil is man's own work, " Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright, but they have thought out many inventions" (Eccles. vii. 29) , and these inventions bring the evils upon him. The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, " But man is born unto trouble." This class of evils originates in man's vices, such as excessive desire for eating, drinking, and love; indulgence in these things in undue measure, or in improper manner, or partaking of bad food. This course brings diseases and afflictions upon body and soul alike. The sufferings of the body in consequence of these evils are well known ; those of the soul are twofold :--First, such evils of the soul as are the necessary consequence of changes in the body, in so far as the soul is a force residing in the body ; it has therefore been said that the properties of the soul depend on the condition of the body. Secondly, the soul, when accustomed to superfluous things, acquires a strong habit of desiring things which are neither necessary for the preservation of the individual nor for that of the species. This desire is without a limit, whilst things which are necessary are few in number and restricted within certain limits ; but what is superfluous is without end---e.g., you desire to have your vessels of silver, but golden vessels are still better : others have even vessels of sapphire, or perhaps they can be made of emerald or rubies, or any other substance that could be suggested. Those who are ignorant and perverse in their thought are constantly in trouble and pain, because they cannot get as much of superfluous thing, as a certain other person possesses. They as a rule expose themselves to great dangers, e.g., by sea voyage, or service of kings, and all this for the purpose of obtaining that which is superfluous and not necessary. When they thus meet with the consequences of the course which they adopt, they complain of the decrees and judgments of God ; they begin to blame the time, and wonder at the want of justice in its changes ; that it has not enabled them to acquire great riches, with which they could buy large quantities of wine for the purpose of making themselves drunk, and numerous concubines adorned with various
kind of ornaments of gold, embroidery, and jewels, for the purpose of driving themselves to voluptuousness beyond their capacities, as if the whole Universe existed exclusively for the purpose of giving pleasure to these low people. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe. Thus David says, "All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep His covenant and His testimonies" (Ps. xxv. IO). For those who observe the nature of the Universe and the commandments of the Law, and know their purpose, see clearly God's mercy and truth in everything; they seek, therefore, that which the Creator intended to be the aim of man, viz., comprehension. Forced by the claims of the body, they seek also that which is necessary for the preservation of the body, " bread to eat and garment to clothe," and this is very little ; but they seek nothing superfluous; with very slight exertion man can obtain it, so long as he is contented with that which is indispensable. All the difficulties and troubles we meet in this respect are due to the desire for superfluous things ; when we seek unnecessary things, we have difficulty even in finding that which is indispensable. For the more we desire to have that which is superfluous,the more we meet with difficulties ; our strength and possessions are spent in unnecessary things, and are wanting when required for that which is necessary. Observe how Nature proves the correctness of this assertion. The more necessary a thing is for living beings, the more easily it is found and the cheaper it is ; the less necessary it is, the rarer and dearer it is. E.g.,air, water, and food are indispensable to man : air is most necessary, for if man is without air a short time he dies ; whilst he can be without water a day or two. Air is also undoubtedly found more easily and cheaper [than water]. Water is more necessary than food ; for some people can be four or five days without food, provided they have water; water also exists in every country in larger quantities than food, and is also cheaper. The same proportion can be noticed in the different kinds of food; that which is more necessary in a certain place exists there in larger quantities and is cheaper than that which is less necessary. No intelligent person, I think, considers musk, amber, rubies, and emerald as very necessary for man except as medicines ; and they, as well as other like substances, can be replaced for this purpose by herbs and minerals. This shows the kindness of God to His creatures, even to us weak beings. His righteousness and justice as regards all animals are well known ; for in the transient world there is among the various kinds of animals no individual being distinguished from the rest of the same species by a peculiar property or an additional limb. On the contrary, all physical, psychical, and viral forces and organs that are possessed by one individual are found also in the other individuals. If any one is somehow different it is by accident, in consequence of some exception, and not by a natural property ; it is also a rare occurrence. There is no difference between individuals of a species in the due course of Nature ; the difference originates in the various dispositions of their substances. This is the necessary consequence of the nature of the substance of that species ; the nature of the species is not more favourable to one individual than to the other. It is no wrong or injustice that one has many bags of finest myrrh and garments embroidered with gold, while another has not those things, which are not necessary for our maintenance ; he who has them has not thereby obtained control over anything that could be an essential addition to his nature, but has only obtained something illusory or deceptive. The other, who does not possess that which is not wanted for his maintenance, does not miss anything indispensable : "He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack : they gathered every man according to his eating" (Exod. xvi. I8). This is the rule at all times and in all places ; no notice should be taken of exceptional cases,as we have explained. In these two ways you will see the mercy of God toward His creatures. how He has provided that which is required, in proper proportions, and treated all individual beings of the same species with perfect equality. In
accordance with this correct reflection the chief of the wise men says, "All his ways are judgment" (Deut. xxxli. 4) ; David likewise says: " All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth" (Ps. xxv. Io) ; he also says expressly, " The Lord is good .to fill; and his tender mercies are over all his works" (ibid. cxlv. 9) ; for it is an act of great and perfect goodness that He gave us existence ; and the creation of the controlling faculty in animals is a proof of His mercy towards them, as has been shown by us.
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
I can post again where Maimonides writes about man's evil inclination,
and you can continue sidestep to pretend otherwise.
Denial is your choice.
That's you just sidestepping with a strawman as usual.
Wouldn't need all that trickery if your argument was consistent,
rylah
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- Jun 10, 2015
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Maimonides said God did not directly create evil or had the direct intention to produce evil.Why would you ignore the words "it cannot be said" or what he said directly after that?Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good.
Seriously, you're that simple minded,
you thought I didn't see the 'cannot'??
I think you don't even understand that you're quoting the exact sentences
that point exactly to what you intend to deny.
Tell me, does the sentence connote evil is not produced?
Which is the opposite of giving man an evil inclination which would have been intended to produce evil.
First part correct,
but you're wrong about the intent in the second part.
In other words, your wrong conclusion,
doesn't negate the fact that G-d gave you an evil inclination.
I'm not the one who took what Maimonides said about God not creating evil or had the direct intention to produce evil into God created evil. That's what you did when you parsed his quote.You literally just attributed Maimonides as saying God directly created evil when Maimonides said the exact opposite.He actually goes into great detail to argue that man is mostly good. So why would you think he was arguing that man was given an evil inclination from God when man mostly does good.I disagree. I have never said we won't be judged for our acts.Where did I say otherwise?No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?Man has free will to do good or not do good."...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267
"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267
"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
Who gave man the ability to do evil?
Maimonides responds...
"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
You're evading the question.
Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?
No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.
Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.
That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?
And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?
You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.
So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.
Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.
You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.
You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.
What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.
Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.
So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.
I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.
If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.
But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".
That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.
Can't twist out of that.
That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.
Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?
But putting that aside, I am saying exactly the same thing that Maimonides is saying, so you are accusing him of what you are accusing me of.
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
And yet Maimonides doesn't deny the evil inclination,
and you do everything you can to make it seem as if he did.
Also notice his choice of the word 'directly',
in the first line "He directly creates evil".
The one who argues against Maimonides is you,
picking what fits your delusions and ignoring the rest of the text,
does not mean he argues your case, rather demonstrates your ignorance.
MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things ; many sayings and songs of the nations dwell on this idea. They say that a good thing is found only exceptionally, whilst evil things are numerous and lasting. Not only common people make this mistake, but even many who believe that they are wise. A1-Razi wrote a well-known book On Metaphysics [or Theology]. Among other mad and foolish things, it contains also the idea, discovered by him, that there exists more evil than good. For if the happiness of man and his pleasure in the times of prosperity be compared with the mishaps that befall him,--such as grief, acute pain, defects, paralysis of the limbs, fears, anxieties, and troubles,--it would seem as if the existence of man is a punishment and a great evil for him. This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. The origin of the error is to be found in the circumstance that this ignorant man, and his party among the common people, judge the whole universe by examining one single person. For an ignorant man believes that the whole universe only exists for him ; as if nothing else required any consideration. If, therefore anything happens to him contrary to his expectation, he at once concludes that the whole universe is evil. If, however, he would take into consideration the whole universe, form an idea of it, and comprehend what a small portion he is of the Universe, he will find the truth. For it is clear that persons who have fallen into this widespread error as regards the multitude of evils in the world, do not find the evils among the angels, the spheres and stars, the elements, and that which is formed of them, viz., minerals and plants, or in the various species of living beings, but only in some individual instances of mankind. They wonder that a person, who became leprous in consequence of bad food, should be afflicted with so great an illness and suffer such a misfortune ; or that he who indulges so much in sensuality as to weaken his sight, should be struck with blindness and the like. What we have, in truth, to consider is this :--The whole mankind at present in existence, and a fortiori, every other species of animals, form an infinitesimal portion of the permanent universe. Comp. "Man is like to vanity" (Ps. cxliv. 4) ; " How much less man, that is a worm ; and the son of man, which is a worm" (Job xxv. 6) ; "How much less in them who dwell in houses of clay " (ibid. iv. I9) ; " Behold, the nations are as a drop of the bucket" (Isa. xl. 15). There are many other passages in the books of the prophets expressing the same idea. It is of great advantage that man should know his station, and not erroneously imagine that the whole universe exists only for him. We hold that the universe exists because the Creator wills it so ; that mankind is low in rank as compared with the uppermost portion of the universe, viz., with the spheres and the stars ; but, as regards the angels, there cannot be any real comparison between man and angels, although man is the highest of all beings on earth ; i.e., of all beings formed of the four elements. Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! Comp. "Is destruction his [work] No. Ye [who call yourselves] wrongly his sons, you who are a perverse and crooked generation" (Deut. xxxii. 5). This is explained by Solomon, who says, "The foolishness of man perverteth his way, and his heart fretteth against the Lord" (Prov. xix. 3). I explain this theory in the following manner. The evils that befall man are of three kinds : (I) The first kind of evil is that which is caused to man by the circumstance that he is subject to genesis and destruction, or that he possesses a body. It is on account of the body that some persons happen to have great deformities or paralysis of some of the organs. This evil may be part of the natural constitution of these persons, or may have developed subsequently in consequence of changes in the elements, e.g., through bad air, or thunderstorms, or landslips. We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear. He who thinks that he can have flesh and bones without being subject to any external influence, or any of the accidents of matter, unconsciously wishes to reconcile two opposites, viz., to be at the same time subject and not subject to change. If man were never subject to change there could be no generation ; there would be one single being, but no individuals forming a species. Galen, in the third section of his book, The Use of the Limbs, says correctly that it would be in vain to expect to see living beings formed of the blood of menstruous women and the semen virile, who will not die, will never feel pain, or will move perpetually, or will shine like the sun. This dictum of Galen is part of the following more general proposition :--Whatever is formed of any matter receives the most perfect form possible in that species of matter ; in each individual case the defects are in accordance with the defects of that individual matter. The best and most perfect being that can be formed of the blood and the semen is the species of man, for as far as man's nature is known, he is living, reasonable, and mortal. It is therefore impossible that man should be free from this species of evil. You will, nevertheless, find that the evils of the above kind which befall man are very few and rare ; for you find countries that have not been flooded or burned for thousands of years ; there are thousands of men in perfect health, deformed individuals are a strange and exceptional occurrence, or say few in number if you object to the term exceptional,--they are not one-hundredth, not even one-thousandth part of those that are perfectly normal. (2) The second class of evils comprises such evils as people cause to each other, when, e.g., some of them use their strength against others. These evils are more numerous than those of the first kind ; their causes are numerous and known; they likewise originate in ourselves, though the sufferer himself cannot avert them. This kind of evil is nevertheless not widespread in any country of the whole world. It is of rare occurrence that a man plans to kill his neighbour or to rob him of his property by night. Many persons are, however, afflicted with this kind of evil in great wars ; but these are not frequent, if the whole inhabited part of the earth is taken into consideration. (3) The third class of evil comprises those which every one causes to himself by his own action. This is the largest class, and is far more numerous than the second class. It is especially of these evils that all men complain,-- only few men are found that do not sin against themselves by this kind of evil. Those that are afflicted with it are therefore justly blamed in the words of the prophet, " This hath been by your means " (Mal. i. 9) ; the same is expressed in the following passage, " He that doeth it destroyeth his own soul" (Prov. vi. 32). In reference to this kind of evil, Solomon says, " The foolishness of man perverteth his way" Obid. xix. 3). In the following passage he explains also that this kind of evil is man's own work, " Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright, but they have thought out many inventions" (Eccles. vii. 29) , and these inventions bring the evils upon him. The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, " But man is born unto trouble." This class of evils originates in man's vices, such as excessive desire for eating, drinking, and love; indulgence in these things in undue measure, or in improper manner, or partaking of bad food. This course brings diseases and afflictions upon body and soul alike. The sufferings of the body in consequence of these evils are well known ; those of the soul are twofold :--First, such evils of the soul as are the necessary consequence of changes in the body, in so far as the soul is a force residing in the body ; it has therefore been said that the properties of the soul depend on the condition of the body. Secondly, the soul, when accustomed to superfluous things, acquires a strong habit of desiring things which are neither necessary for the preservation of the individual nor for that of the species. This desire is without a limit, whilst things which are necessary are few in number and restricted within certain limits ; but what is superfluous is without end---e.g., you desire to have your vessels of silver, but golden vessels are still better : others have even vessels of sapphire, or perhaps they can be made of emerald or rubies, or any other substance that could be suggested. Those who are ignorant and perverse in their thought are constantly in trouble and pain, because they cannot get as much of superfluous thing, as a certain other person possesses. They as a rule expose themselves to great dangers, e.g., by sea voyage, or service of kings, and all this for the purpose of obtaining that which is superfluous and not necessary. When they thus meet with the consequences of the course which they adopt, they complain of the decrees and judgments of God ; they begin to blame the time, and wonder at the want of justice in its changes ; that it has not enabled them to acquire great riches, with which they could buy large quantities of wine for the purpose of making themselves drunk, and numerous concubines adorned with various
kind of ornaments of gold, embroidery, and jewels, for the purpose of driving themselves to voluptuousness beyond their capacities, as if the whole Universe existed exclusively for the purpose of giving pleasure to these low people. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe. Thus David says, "All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep His covenant and His testimonies" (Ps. xxv. IO). For those who observe the nature of the Universe and the commandments of the Law, and know their purpose, see clearly God's mercy and truth in everything; they seek, therefore, that which the Creator intended to be the aim of man, viz., comprehension. Forced by the claims of the body, they seek also that which is necessary for the preservation of the body, " bread to eat and garment to clothe," and this is very little ; but they seek nothing superfluous; with very slight exertion man can obtain it, so long as he is contented with that which is indispensable. All the difficulties and troubles we meet in this respect are due to the desire for superfluous things ; when we seek unnecessary things, we have difficulty even in finding that which is indispensable. For the more we desire to have that which is superfluous,the more we meet with difficulties ; our strength and possessions are spent in unnecessary things, and are wanting when required for that which is necessary. Observe how Nature proves the correctness of this assertion. The more necessary a thing is for living beings, the more easily it is found and the cheaper it is ; the less necessary it is, the rarer and dearer it is. E.g.,air, water, and food are indispensable to man : air is most necessary, for if man is without air a short time he dies ; whilst he can be without water a day or two. Air is also undoubtedly found more easily and cheaper [than water]. Water is more necessary than food ; for some people can be four or five days without food, provided they have water; water also exists in every country in larger quantities than food, and is also cheaper. The same proportion can be noticed in the different kinds of food; that which is more necessary in a certain place exists there in larger quantities and is cheaper than that which is less necessary. No intelligent person, I think, considers musk, amber, rubies, and emerald as very necessary for man except as medicines ; and they, as well as other like substances, can be replaced for this purpose by herbs and minerals. This shows the kindness of God to His creatures, even to us weak beings. His righteousness and justice as regards all animals are well known ; for in the transient world there is among the various kinds of animals no individual being distinguished from the rest of the same species by a peculiar property or an additional limb. On the contrary, all physical, psychical, and viral forces and organs that are possessed by one individual are found also in the other individuals. If any one is somehow different it is by accident, in consequence of some exception, and not by a natural property ; it is also a rare occurrence. There is no difference between individuals of a species in the due course of Nature ; the difference originates in the various dispositions of their substances. This is the necessary consequence of the nature of the substance of that species ; the nature of the species is not more favourable to one individual than to the other. It is no wrong or injustice that one has many bags of finest myrrh and garments embroidered with gold, while another has not those things, which are not necessary for our maintenance ; he who has them has not thereby obtained control over anything that could be an essential addition to his nature, but has only obtained something illusory or deceptive. The other, who does not possess that which is not wanted for his maintenance, does not miss anything indispensable : "He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack : they gathered every man according to his eating" (Exod. xvi. I8). This is the rule at all times and in all places ; no notice should be taken of exceptional cases,as we have explained. In these two ways you will see the mercy of God toward His creatures. how He has provided that which is required, in proper proportions, and treated all individual beings of the same species with perfect equality. In
accordance with this correct reflection the chief of the wise men says, "All his ways are judgment" (Deut. xxxli. 4) ; David likewise says: " All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth" (Ps. xxv. Io) ; he also says expressly, " The Lord is good .to fill; and his tender mercies are over all his works" (ibid. cxlv. 9) ; for it is an act of great and perfect goodness that He gave us existence ; and the creation of the controlling faculty in animals is a proof of His mercy towards them, as has been shown by us.
MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272
I can post again where Maimonides writes about man's evil inclination,
and you can continue sidestep to pretend otherwise.
Denial is your choice.
That's you just sidestepping with a strawman as usual.
Wouldn't need all that trickery if your argument was consistent,
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
I am not using trickery. I am using direct quotes from Maimonides.Wouldn't need all that trickery if your argument was consistent,
See?
It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils.
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