Is the knowledge of good and evil, good or evil?

[Mindful]

Ding:

I posted about the small child preparing to kill an American soldier.

And the dilemma faced by an adult, possibly with children of his own, of considering killing that child.

Is that evil? Or self preservation?

 

[rylah]

"...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267







"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

Who gave man the ability to do evil?

Man has free will to do good or not do good.

Maimonides responds...

"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

You're evading the question.

Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?

I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?

No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.

Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.

You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.

That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?

And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?

You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.

I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.

So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.

Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.

You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.

You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.

 

[rylah]

What is the one good thing man can do that G-d can't?

Give thanks and praise to his Creator.

Correct,
so is G-d limited ?

Bear with me, it has to do with our main argument.

 

[ding]

Ding:

I posted about the small child preparing to kill an American soldier.

And the dilemma faced by an adult, possibly with children of his own, of considering killing that child.

Is that evil? Or self preservation?

As an engineer I approach things as an engineer would. I evaluate the envelope to identify the boundaries then list the fundamental truths and then evaluate the circumstances. It's a logical sequential process. I then test it using a thought experiment and put myself in that situation to see how I would feel about it from each side. This is how I evaluate everything.

So... in this case I start with the highest standard which is killing is wrong. There is no other higher standard. If you adopt this standard then there is no room or need to make a rationalization that killing is good. Mind you sometimes this means I might end up not doing good but at least I will avoid rationalizing wrong as right which is my number one boundary condition.

So, I can't tell you if I would shoot the child or not because I can say one thing while at the keyboard but it is quite another thing to actually be in that position but what I can tell you is that the envelope consists of two boundaries. 1. I shoot the child (maybe he dies, maybe he doesn't. There are no guarantees that if I try to wound the child to make him stop what he is doing that he won't eventually die) or 2. I don't shoot him and accept my possible death (there are no guarantees that he will shoot me or that if he does I will die).

So what I will tell you about the right and wrong of the situation is that killing is wrong. So if I shot him (or any other human) I would experience grief for killing another human. This is one of the ways I would know it was wrong. I wouldn't rationalize that what I did was right or justified. I would admit that killing him was wrong and that what I did was not good.

Can you accept this?

 

[ding]

What is the one good thing man can do that G-d can't?

Give thanks and praise to his Creator.

Correct,
so is G-d limited ?

Bear with me, it has to do with our main argument.

No. These kind of logical fallacy paradoxes are just that... logical fallacies.

God can't oppose his nature. That isn't a sign of weakness or lack of omnipotence. It's just the reality that God opposing Himself is illogical and God, among other things, is logic.

 

[Mindful]

Ding:

I posted about the small child preparing to kill an American soldier.

And the dilemma faced by an adult, possibly with children of his own, of considering killing that child.

Is that evil? Or self preservation?

As an engineer I approach things as an engineer would. I evaluate the envelope to identify the boundaries then list the fundamental truths and then evaluate the circumstances. It's a logical sequential process. I then test it using a thought experiment and put myself in that situation to see how I would feel about it from each side. This is how I evaluate everything.

So... in this case I start with the highest standard which is killing is wrong. There is no other higher standard. If you adopt this standard then there is no room or need to make a rationalization that killing is good. Mind you sometimes this means I might end up not doing good but at least I will avoid rationalizing wrong as right which is my number one boundary condition.

So, I can't tell you if I would shoot the child or not because I can say one thing while at the keyboard but it is quite another thing to actually be in that position but what I can tell you is that the envelope consists of two boundaries. 1. I shoot the child (maybe he dies, maybe he doesn't. There are no guarantees that if I try to wound the child to make him stop what he is doing that he won't eventually die) or 2. I don't shoot him and accept my possible death (there are no guarantees that he will shoot me or that if he does I will die).

So what I will tell you about the right and wrong of the situation is that killing is wrong. So if I shot him (or any other human) I would experience grief for killing another human. This is one of the ways I would know it was wrong. I wouldn't rationalize that what I did was right or justified. I would admit that killing him was wrong and that what I did was not good.

Can you accept this?

If you could put it in précis form.

 

[rylah]

What is the one good thing man can do that G-d can't?

Give thanks and praise to his Creator.

Correct,
so is G-d limited ?

Bear with me, it has to do with our main argument.

No. These kind of logical fallacy paradoxes are just that... logical fallacies.

God can't oppose his nature. That isn't a sign of weakness or lack of omnipotence. It's just the reality that God opposing Himself is illogical and God, among other things, is logic.

So if G-d is not limited by the paradox of human ability to do something G-d can't,
the same way the attempt to absolve man of his G-d given ability to do evil,
just because introduces a paradox that defies human understanding of G-d,
is a logical fallacy as well.

G-d's work is all good, yet gave His creation the ability to do evil.
That is only limiting by human capacity to understand,
yet doesn't absolve you from responsibility,
for your doing evil.

You gotta own to that, if you wanna be a man,
otherwise even an animal is more conscious.

 

[rylah]

In essence ding,
you're pretending you didn't eat from the tree,
and thus don't know evil. But do you think this helps in court of law?

"But G-d, You only do good.
How can I be judged for my evil doing?
That woman...that was just me "not doing good",
if you can't do evil, I'm certainly not more powerful than You...

You didn't give me an ability to do evil, I believe, no G-d You're mistaken..."

 

[ding]

"...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267







"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

Who gave man the ability to do evil?

Man has free will to do good or not do good.

Maimonides responds...

"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

You're evading the question.

Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?

I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?

No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.

Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.

You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.

That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?

And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?

You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.

I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.

So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.

Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.

You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.

You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.

No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.

What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.

Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.

So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.

I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.

 

[rylah]

"...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267







"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

Who gave man the ability to do evil?

Man has free will to do good or not do good.

Maimonides responds...

"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

You're evading the question.

Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?

I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?

No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.

Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.

You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.

That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?

And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?

You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.

I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.

So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.

Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.

You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.

You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.

No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.

What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.

Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.

So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.

I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.

If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.

But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".

That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.

Can't twist out of that.

 

[ding]

Ding:

I posted about the small child preparing to kill an American soldier.

And the dilemma faced by an adult, possibly with children of his own, of considering killing that child.

Is that evil? Or self preservation?

As an engineer I approach things as an engineer would. I evaluate the envelope to identify the boundaries then list the fundamental truths and then evaluate the circumstances. It's a logical sequential process. I then test it using a thought experiment and put myself in that situation to see how I would feel about it from each side. This is how I evaluate everything.

So... in this case I start with the highest standard which is killing is wrong. There is no other higher standard. If you adopt this standard then there is no room or need to make a rationalization that killing is good. Mind you sometimes this means I might end up not doing good but at least I will avoid rationalizing wrong as right which is my number one boundary condition.

So, I can't tell you if I would shoot the child or not because I can say one thing while at the keyboard but it is quite another thing to actually be in that position but what I can tell you is that the envelope consists of two boundaries. 1. I shoot the child (maybe he dies, maybe he doesn't. There are no guarantees that if I try to wound the child to make him stop what he is doing that he won't eventually die) or 2. I don't shoot him and accept my possible death (there are no guarantees that he will shoot me or that if he does I will die).

So what I will tell you about the right and wrong of the situation is that killing is wrong. So if I shot him (or any other human) I would experience grief for killing another human. This is one of the ways I would know it was wrong. I wouldn't rationalize that what I did was right or justified. I would admit that killing him was wrong and that what I did was not good.

Can you accept this?

If you could put it in précis form.

I thought I just did.

 

[ding]

"...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267







"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

Who gave man the ability to do evil?

Man has free will to do good or not do good.

Maimonides responds...

"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

You're evading the question.

Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?

I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?

No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.

Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.

You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.

That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?

And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?

You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.

I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.

So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.

Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.

You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.

You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.

No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.

What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.

Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.

So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.

I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.

If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.

But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".

That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.

Can't twist out of that.

Where did I say otherwise?

 

[ding]

What is the one good thing man can do that G-d can't?

Give thanks and praise to his Creator.

Correct,
so is G-d limited ?

Bear with me, it has to do with our main argument.

No. These kind of logical fallacy paradoxes are just that... logical fallacies.

God can't oppose his nature. That isn't a sign of weakness or lack of omnipotence. It's just the reality that God opposing Himself is illogical and God, among other things, is logic.

So if G-d is not limited by the paradox of human ability to do something G-d can't,
the same way the attempt to absolve man of his G-d given ability to do evil,
just because introduces a paradox that defies human understanding of G-d,
is a logical fallacy as well.

G-d's work is all good, yet gave His creation the ability to do evil.
That is only limiting by human capacity to understand,
yet doesn't absolve you from responsibility,
for your doing evil.

You gotta own to that, if you wanna be a man,
otherwise even an animal is more conscious.

God gave man the opportunity to do good. He didn't give man the opportunity to do evil. Man does evil when he chooses to not do good.

"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

 

[ding]

In essence ding,
you're pretending you didn't eat from the tree,
and thus don't know evil. But do you think this helps in court of law?

"But G-d, You only do good.
How can I be judged for my evil doing?
That woman...that was just me "not doing good",
if you can't do evil, I'm certainly not more powerful than You...

You didn't give me an ability to do evil, I believe, no G-d You're mistaken..."

"...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267


"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267


"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267


"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272



"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272


"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272


"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272


"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

 

[Blues Man]

If I give a loaded gun to a child and that child kills someone I,not the child, am responsible for the consequences.

You aren't God so... the error was in your absence of wisdom to give a child a gun.

And it was god's error to leave man ignorant

We are but children to a god aren't we? So god the parent gave man free will but not the wisdom to use it.

No different from a parent giving a child a loaded gun

No. It was man's choice to be ignorant. You can't blame others for your errors. That's not a good look.

I am beginning to think you have a victim attitude the way you are looking to blame others for your choices.

I don't blame others for my errors.

I am telling you how I understand the god creation myth.

And I think it is you who look down on others because you think you are morally superior with your childish idealistic moral absolutes that you can't even live up to.

 

[Mindful]

Ding:

I posted about the small child preparing to kill an American soldier.

And the dilemma faced by an adult, possibly with children of his own, of considering killing that child.

Is that evil? Or self preservation?

As an engineer I approach things as an engineer would. I evaluate the envelope to identify the boundaries then list the fundamental truths and then evaluate the circumstances. It's a logical sequential process. I then test it using a thought experiment and put myself in that situation to see how I would feel about it from each side. This is how I evaluate everything.

So... in this case I start with the highest standard which is killing is wrong. There is no other higher standard. If you adopt this standard then there is no room or need to make a rationalization that killing is good. Mind you sometimes this means I might end up not doing good but at least I will avoid rationalizing wrong as right which is my number one boundary condition.

So, I can't tell you if I would shoot the child or not because I can say one thing while at the keyboard but it is quite another thing to actually be in that position but what I can tell you is that the envelope consists of two boundaries. 1. I shoot the child (maybe he dies, maybe he doesn't. There are no guarantees that if I try to wound the child to make him stop what he is doing that he won't eventually die) or 2. I don't shoot him and accept my possible death (there are no guarantees that he will shoot me or that if he does I will die).

So what I will tell you about the right and wrong of the situation is that killing is wrong. So if I shot him (or any other human) I would experience grief for killing another human. This is one of the ways I would know it was wrong. I wouldn't rationalize that what I did was right or justified. I would admit that killing him was wrong and that what I did was not good.

Can you accept this?

If you could put it in précis form.

I thought I just did.

I didn’t.

 

[rylah]

"...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267







"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

Who gave man the ability to do evil?

Man has free will to do good or not do good.

Maimonides responds...

"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

You're evading the question.

Did G-d give you the freedom to do evil or not?
Or you just want to run from responsibility?

I am not evading it. Very clearly I believe God gave us free will. You want to blame God for our misuse of good?

No I want you to acknowledge your human ability to do evil.
Only then can you start a path towards being a responsible man.

Otherwise a man is worse than an animal.

You don't seem very responsible blaming God for man's errors. In fact that is the opposite of being responsible. That's blaming God for man's mistakes.

That's because you don't understand what I say,
but the main question remains- do you even acknowledge man's responsibility in doing evil?

And thus your ability to do evil, or just gonna rationalize that since G-d does only good,
you're incapable of, and absolved of any responsibility for your own doing evil?

You do all kinds of tricks,
but evade answering the question.

I have been saying all along that man is totally 100% responsible for his sin. God is blameless. Everything God created is good.

So I literally have no idea why you would believe I absolved man from responsibility. It is your interpretation that God gave man an evil inclination which leads people to blame God for man's choices.

Because you claim man's freedom is limited to either do good, or not do good,
which leaves out man's ability to do evil.

You only ascribe responsibility to non-action,
and evade responsibility for evil action.

You just pretend man is not capable of that... it's a snake talk.

No. Evil is not extant. It only exists as a negation of what God created. Nothing God created is evil. It is the central premise behind Maimonides beliefs.

What you keep calling evil is in reality the absence of good. It's no different than ignorance being the absence of wisdom.

Man is 100% capable of not doing good, which is what you call evil. I call it the absence of good.

So we can both look at the exact same event and what you say man did was evil I say it he didn't do good. So it is a disagreement of semantics.

I only use the term evil as a literary convenience. Which is exactly how Maimonides uses it. He goes into great detail talking about negations and how God creating something positive doesn't mean he created the negation of the positive.

If it was only semantics I wouldn't argue.

But in reality, man is going to be judged for his doing evil,
even if you call it "not doing good".

That is what important,
change 'doing evil' to 'not doing good',
but you're still gonna be judged for both your evil passivity and activity.

Can't twist out of that.

Where did I say otherwise?

That is what the combination "not doing" connotes - passivity.
From legal perspective such details play crucial role.

Wonder why Jews are good lawyers?

 

[Blues Man]

"...it must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. The book which enlightened the darkness of the world says therefore, " And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good " (Gen. i. 31)..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter X, Titled "God is not the Creator of Evil" Pages 265-267






"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267







"...This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one ; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...We have already shown that, in accordance with the divine wisdom, genesis can only take place through destruction, and without the destruction of the individual members of the species the species themselves would not exist permanently. Thus the true kindness, and beneficence, and goodness of God is clear..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The same subject is referred to in Job (v. 6), " For affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground." These words are immediately followed by the explanation that man himself is the author of this class of evils, ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272







"...The error of the ignorant goes so far as to say that God's power is insufficient, because He has given to this Universe the properties which they imagine cause these great evils, and which do not help all evil-disposed persons to obtain the evil which they seek, and to bring their evil souls to the aim of their desires, though these, as we have shown, are really without limit. The virtuous and wise, however, see and comprehend the wisdom of God displayed in the Universe..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

The very first line is a contradiction.

If all of god's works are perfectly good and we all know that man is not perfectly good and man is one of god's works the statement contradicts itself.

Now let's address free will. God gave free will to man if god created everything then he also created the concept of free will and gifted man with it so god is responsible consequences of man exercising his gift of free will.

So let's use a nonreligious example.

If I give a loaded gun to a child and that child kills someone I,not the child, am responsible for the consequences.

"...ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XI, Titled "Man is the Cause of his own Misfortunes" Pages 267




"...Man's existence is nevertheless a great boon to him, and his distinction and perfection is a divine gift. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We complain and seek relief from our own faults ; we suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them! ..."

MOSES MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED
Part 3, Chapter XII, Titled "Three Kinds of'Evil : (1) That caused by the Nature "of Man" ; (2) Caused by Man to Man ; (3) Caused by Man to himself" Page 267 - 272

SO man is ignorant. IOW man doesn't know. You really think man doesn't know. Evenmore reason to think god is responsible for the actions of man.

Only the ones that lack wisdom. Yes.

God doesn't make you do stupid things.

The statement you just made is a textbook example of an external locus of control which is not a good look if you understand locus of control.

No he just didn't give men the wisdom to know what is stupid or not.

Do you want him to do everything for you? Where does your accountability start in all of this?

You have literally been given the most precious gift there is and you are complaining it's not enough?

Again I don't believe in the god myth.

I am giving you my take on it but I do not believe in myths.

I categorize your god story along side the Greek myths.

 

[ding]

If I give a loaded gun to a child and that child kills someone I,not the child, am responsible for the consequences.

You aren't God so... the error was in your absence of wisdom to give a child a gun.

And it was god's error to leave man ignorant

We are but children to a god aren't we? So god the parent gave man free will but not the wisdom to use it.

No different from a parent giving a child a loaded gun

No. It was man's choice to be ignorant. You can't blame others for your errors. That's not a good look.

I am beginning to think you have a victim attitude the way you are looking to blame others for your choices.

I don't blame others for my errors.

I am telling you how I understand the god creation myth.

And I think it is you who look down on others because you think you are morally superior with your childish idealistic moral absolutes that you can't even live up to.

Which results in you blaming God for man's bad acts. You literally are saying that God should have not allowed man free will to do good or not do good.

I don't see myself as superior to anyone. I'm no saint. I don't see anything special about myself at all. So I'm not sure where you are getting this from.

 

[Blues Man]

If I give a loaded gun to a child and that child kills someone I,not the child, am responsible for the consequences.

You aren't God so... the error was in your absence of wisdom to give a child a gun.

And it was god's error to leave man ignorant

We are but children to a god aren't we? So god the parent gave man free will but not the wisdom to use it.

No different from a parent giving a child a loaded gun

No. It was man's choice to be ignorant. You can't blame others for your errors. That's not a good look.

I am beginning to think you have a victim attitude the way you are looking to blame others for your choices.

I don't blame others for my errors.

I am telling you how I understand the god creation myth.

And I think it is you who look down on others because you think you are morally superior with your childish idealistic moral absolutes that you can't even live up to.

Which results in you blaming God for man's bad acts. You literally are saying that God should have not allowed man free will to do good or not do good.

I don't see myself as superior to anyone. I'm no saint. I don't see anything special about myself at all. So I'm not sure where you are getting this from.

How can I blame a god I don't believe exists for anything ?

I told you how I see your god myth.

It is not a myth I believe is true.

Hey you can pass your judgements on me by saying I have a victim mentality but you don't like when I pass my judgements on you.