Is the universe an intelligence creating machine?

[ding]

Have you read the catechism?

Which one?

The catechism of the Catholic Church.

You claim to know what Catholics believe, right?

So have you read the catechism?

You're jumping to conclusions. I'm not Catholic. I'm Protestant (Methodist), so why would I read your cathechism?

Do you know what happened 70 AD now and why it's important?

I don't expect you to know why Pope Francis is wrong. Evos are usually wrong. He's a liberal Pope, but not necessarily a bad one despite being wrong about science like you are. Besides, this topic doesn't belong in Religion and Ethics. It should be Science and Technology.

I asked you if you had read the catechism because you claim to know what Catholics believe. The catechism states what Catholics believe. It is literally the only place you can go to find out what Catholics believe.

So which of my beliefs are not what Catholics believe?

Where did I claim I know what Catholics believe ? Aren't you the one who's supposed to know with all the pontification you do on R&E (usually over atheists who do not know)? What I said was if you knew your Catholic dogma, then you would be running rings around me. You would be teaching me a lesson. I would be aware of how strong your faith is.

You still do not know what the significance of 70 AD is or else you would've answered my question. It's when the Romans destroyed the Temple of Jerusalem. If you know your Catholic catechism, then you would know its significance.

Let's start with this one.

No. We’re going to start with what I believe and have been arguing. That God created existence and man arose from that creation.

Which means that God created space and time and man evolved from that creation according to the laws of nature.

So is that a Catholic belief or not?

 

[james bond]

Which one?

The catechism of the Catholic Church.

You claim to know what Catholics believe, right?

So have you read the catechism?

You're jumping to conclusions. I'm not Catholic. I'm Protestant (Methodist), so why would I read your cathechism?

Do you know what happened 70 AD now and why it's important?

I don't expect you to know why Pope Francis is wrong. Evos are usually wrong. He's a liberal Pope, but not necessarily a bad one despite being wrong about science like you are. Besides, this topic doesn't belong in Religion and Ethics. It should be Science and Technology.

I asked you if you had read the catechism because you claim to know what Catholics believe. The catechism states what Catholics believe. It is literally the only place you can go to find out what Catholics believe.

So which of my beliefs are not what Catholics believe?

Where did I claim I know what Catholics believe ? Aren't you the one who's supposed to know with all the pontification you do on R&E (usually over atheists who do not know)? What I said was if you knew your Catholic dogma, then you would be running rings around me. You would be teaching me a lesson. I would be aware of how strong your faith is.

You still do not know what the significance of 70 AD is or else you would've answered my question. It's when the Romans destroyed the Temple of Jerusalem. If you know your Catholic catechism, then you would know its significance.

Let's start with this one.

No. We’re going to start with what I believe and have been arguing. That God created existence and man arose from that creation.

Which means that God created space and time and man evolved from that creation according to the laws of nature.

So is that a Catholic belief or not?

We were discussing Catholic catechism since you brought it up. Where does it say what you just stated? You do not have a source, and it does not sound like anything I ever heard.

I don't think you know much Catholic catechism because if you did, then you would know what the significance of 70 AD meant for the RCC.

 

[zaangalewa]

Evos are usually wrong, so ding is wrong. He says he is Catholic. He doesn't know Catholic dogma tho. I think he's theistic evolutionist. He thinks math, science, and physics were created by nature and discovered by humans. He thinks the Bible is mostly allegory. He doesn't quote Scripture, so I have no idea if he's read the Bible or whether he goes to church and receives the sacraments. Does he believe in Satan and exorcism? He is a person who is his own source, so is not credible imho. One can't discuss Catholic dogma with him. I don't even want to bring in Christianity nor the Bible. He believes in evolution and big bang like Pope Francis, but he doesn't want to be tied to Francis and either does not know about him and what he does. I guess he thinks Francis is a negative influence.

Have you read the catechism?

Which one?

The catechism of the Catholic Church.

You claim to know what Catholics believe, right?

So have you read the catechism?

You're jumping to conclusions. I'm not Catholic. I'm Protestant (Methodist), so why would I read your cathechism?

Do you know what happened 70 AD now and why it's important?

I don't expect you to know why Pope Francis is wrong. Evos are usually wrong. He's a liberal Pope, but not necessarily a bad one despite being wrong about science like you are. Besides, this topic doesn't belong in Religion and Ethics. It should be Science and Technology.

Francis is a pedophile. The man literally wears the boy lover symbol on his garbs. This is him at world youth day 2019 wearing the exact symbol that the FBI themselves said in 2007 was one of the symbols of the pedophile groups. This symbol is for boy lover. WAKE UP

View attachment 287958

What you do here is defaming hate speech, that's all. You hurt with this "message" even one of the 10 commandements. Nevertheless I agree with your conclusion: Wake up!

 

[zaangalewa]

With crutches it goes this way.

The joke is that three boats come by to rescue her. When she dies she asked God why he didn’t save her. God tells her he sent three boats.

Not so in this variation.

Still I have not the feeling you are a Catholic.

That’s your problem.

Not really.

I miss your overarching perspective. For example said never any Catholic before in my life to me "And it must bother you, that I’m Catholic." Why should it be so?

I’d be surprised if that were the first time a Catholic said that.

I not. You are an US-American.

Because I’d be surprised if that were the first time two Catholics disagreed on Catholic thought.

What a nonsense.

That’s why I said that.

You said it because you like to win. Your problem is you don't know the reason what and why.

But I do not feel this in your case. So perhaps something is wrong with my empathy or you send to me wrong signals. I asked you whether you are a Catholic. You did not say "I am a Catholic". This gave me the impression you are not a Catholic. Why else should someone not give an answer to such a simple question?

Where did you ask me that? My standard answer to the question of am I a Catholic is I’m not a good catholic. But I’m still a Catholic.

Yes, something is wrong with your empathy.

Possible. Nevertheless I do not trust in you.

Now you say you are a Catholic. So what? It was always only your own behavior, which caused the problem to tell me something, what I do not like to discuss with you. I said I inform you about something - and I said "think about" - that was all. Whether you do so or not is your decision - not my decision.

No. I’ve always said I’m a Catholic. I never claimed to be a good catholic. But I’m still a Catholic.

So what you ask? It means that what I write about God is consistent with Catholic thought.

Good grief. What for heavens sake is your problem? Be happy, supercatholic. Nevertheless became the creator ("painter") in Jesus, the Christ, a human being (=creation= "painting").Whatever you liked to say - you used the wrong picture to say it.

Wrong. I used the standard response to pantheism. The painter is not the painting.

Okay - then you say intentionally nonsense.

 

[zaangalewa]

Do you know what happened 70 AD now and why it's important?

I don't expect you to know why Pope Francis is wrong. Evos are usually wrong. He's a liberal Pope, but not necessarily a bad one despite being wrong about science like you are. Besides, this topic doesn't belong in Religion and Ethics. It should be Science and Technology.

Again, the only place you can go to find out what Catholics believe is the Catechism.

And what did we do before we wrote the bible and the catechism?

 

[Mindful]

Do you know what happened 70 AD now and why it's important?

I don't expect you to know why Pope Francis is wrong. Evos are usually wrong. He's a liberal Pope, but not necessarily a bad one despite being wrong about science like you are. Besides, this topic doesn't belong in Religion and Ethics. It should be Science and Technology.

Again, the only place you can go to find out what Catholics believe is the Catechism.

And what did we do before we wrote the bible and the catechism?

Had a good time?

 

[toobfreak]

Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

That is a redundant statement. Given enough time and the right conditions, anything will happen. But is intelligence, consciousness, self-awareness simply the result of enough time and the right conditions? Definitely. The inevitable result of matter is life, and the inevitable result of life is to survive. Survival is a function of adapting to, tuning to and being best able to anticipate and understand one's surroundings, and the ultimate expression of that and survival is keen comprehension.

Therefore life begins with mind and ends in mind, because the inevitable result of life and time are mind, and with infinite life and infinite time comes infinite mind, ie., God.

 

[zaangalewa]

Do you know what happened 70 AD now and why it's important?

I don't expect you to know why Pope Francis is wrong. Evos are usually wrong. He's a liberal Pope, but not necessarily a bad one despite being wrong about science like you are. Besides, this topic doesn't belong in Religion and Ethics. It should be Science and Technology.

Again, the only place you can go to find out what Catholics believe is the Catechism.

And what did we do before we wrote the bible and the catechism?

Had a good time?

Sure. With the help of god we always had a good time.

 

[zaangalewa]

Do you believe that given enough time and the right conditions that intelligence will eventually arise?

That is a redundant statement. Given enough time and the right conditions, anything will happen. But is intelligence, consciousness, self-awareness simply the result of enough time and the right conditions? Definitely.

Definitely?

The inevitable result of matter is life,

No. Life is impossible ... nearly.

and the inevitable result of life is to survive. Survival is a function of adapting to, tuning to and being best able to anticipate and understand one's surroundings, and the ultimate expression of that and survival is keen comprehension.

Or survival is just simple not to be thrown in a waste paper basket on no special reason. Indirectly I survived for example the holocaust, when I was born after the holocaust. But lots of other unborn entities did not "survive" and were not born. It was never in their hands to "survive". Nevertehels they are not here but you and I are here. Could be a new Aristotlstein or a new Einsteintotle would live otherwise. But they never were born - so they were not able to survive.

Therefore life begins with mind and ends in mind, because the inevitable result of life and time are mind, and with infinite life and infinite time comes infinite mind, ie., God.

But the creation had a begin. It is not infinite.

 

[zaangalewa]

You said it because you like to win.

No. I said that because I love truth.

Aha. That's why you categorized me to be a pantheist - although no one discussed about pantheism - when I said to you the sentence "The painter is not the painting" is wrong in case of Jesus Christ.

It seems you are accusing me of what you are doing.

I hate the destruction of hope. To let hopelessness win is just simple not my way to live. And specially the hope, which is in Jesus Christ, gives us the freedom to be able to think about the very worst terrible things and to be hard tough realists - without losing hope and love. Truth is in the end anyway always only the fulfilling of love.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Define intelligence please.

*****SMILE*****

The ability to process abstract thought.

The ability to use deductive reasoning.

The ability to make observations about one’s surroundings to discover order within one’s surroundings so as to be able to make predictions.

These are a few examples of higher order functions.

Do whales, dolphins, chimpanzees, orangutans, gorillas, wolves, beavers, etc,... fit that criteria?

After all even horses laugh.

"I've found out why people laugh. They laugh because it hurts so much... because it's the only thing that'll make it stop hurting."
― Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger In A Strange Land

*****SMILE*****

Not the level we have attained but they do prove the universe is an intelligence creating machine as they do have intelligence.

Sorry, but it's not Gods creation that creates intelligence. And so far, this is the ONLY point in the universe that has any life outside Gods realm. And no, the creation is not God. It is the CREATION

 

[ding]

Define intelligence please.

*****SMILE*****

The ability to process abstract thought.

The ability to use deductive reasoning.

The ability to make observations about one’s surroundings to discover order within one’s surroundings so as to be able to make predictions.

These are a few examples of higher order functions.

Do whales, dolphins, chimpanzees, orangutans, gorillas, wolves, beavers, etc,... fit that criteria?

After all even horses laugh.

"I've found out why people laugh. They laugh because it hurts so much... because it's the only thing that'll make it stop hurting."
― Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger In A Strange Land

*****SMILE*****

Not the level we have attained but they do prove the universe is an intelligence creating machine as they do have intelligence.

Sorry, but it's not Gods creation that creates intelligence. And so far, this is the ONLY point in the universe that has any life outside Gods realm. And no, the creation is not God. It is the CREATION

I don’t believe I claimed either.

Man is part of God’s creation. God created existence for man to exist. Therefore, God created intelligence in the material world.

 

[ding]

Given enough time and the right conditions, anything will happen.

Not exactly. Anything that is possible will happen.

 

[ding]

Therefore life begins with mind and ends in mind, because the inevitable result of life and time are mind, and with infinite life and infinite time comes infinite mind, ie., God.

I believe the material world was created by Mind, and that Mind has always existed and will always exist.

 

[ding]

You said it because you like to win.

No. I said that because I love truth.

Aha. That's why you categorized me to be a pantheist - although no one discussed about pantheism - when I said to you the sentence "The painter is not the painting" is wrong in case of Jesus Christ.

It seems you are accusing me of what you are doing.

I hate the destruction of hope. To let hopelessness win is just simple not my way to live. And specially the hope, which is in Jesus Christ, gives us the freedom to be able to think about the very worst terrible things and to be hard tough realists - without losing hope and love. Truth is in the end anyway always only the fulfilling of love.

I didn’t categorize you as a pantheistic. I explained what pantheism is. You are a Catholic.

I love hope too. But Jesus was not created so he can’t be the creation.

 

[ding]

With crutches it goes this way.

The joke is that three boats come by to rescue her. When she dies she asked God why he didn’t save her. God tells her he sent three boats.

Not so in this variation.

Still I have not the feeling you are a Catholic.

That’s your problem.

Not really.

I miss your overarching perspective. For example said never any Catholic before in my life to me "And it must bother you, that I’m Catholic." Why should it be so?

I’d be surprised if that were the first time a Catholic said that.

I not. You are an US-American.

Because I’d be surprised if that were the first time two Catholics disagreed on Catholic thought.

What a nonsense.

That’s why I said that.

You said it because you like to win. Your problem is you don't know the reason what and why.

But I do not feel this in your case. So perhaps something is wrong with my empathy or you send to me wrong signals. I asked you whether you are a Catholic. You did not say "I am a Catholic". This gave me the impression you are not a Catholic. Why else should someone not give an answer to such a simple question?

Where did you ask me that? My standard answer to the question of am I a Catholic is I’m not a good catholic. But I’m still a Catholic.

Yes, something is wrong with your empathy.

Possible. Nevertheless I do not trust in you.

Now you say you are a Catholic. So what? It was always only your own behavior, which caused the problem to tell me something, what I do not like to discuss with you. I said I inform you about something - and I said "think about" - that was all. Whether you do so or not is your decision - not my decision.

No. I’ve always said I’m a Catholic. I never claimed to be a good catholic. But I’m still a Catholic.

So what you ask? It means that what I write about God is consistent with Catholic thought.

Good grief. What for heavens sake is your problem? Be happy, supercatholic. Nevertheless became the creator ("painter") in Jesus, the Christ, a human being (=creation= "painting").Whatever you liked to say - you used the wrong picture to say it.

Wrong. I used the standard response to pantheism. The painter is not the painting.

Okay - then you say intentionally nonsense.

At this point your pride is so ruffled up I wouldn’t have expected you to see it any other way.

 

[ding]

Do you know what happened 70 AD now and why it's important?

I don't expect you to know why Pope Francis is wrong. Evos are usually wrong. He's a liberal Pope, but not necessarily a bad one despite being wrong about science like you are. Besides, this topic doesn't belong in Religion and Ethics. It should be Science and Technology.

Again, the only place you can go to find out what Catholics believe is the Catechism.

And what did we do before we wrote the bible and the catechism?

You tell me because whatever I say you are going to argue with it.

 

[Paulie]

Have you read the catechism?

Which one?

The catechism of the Catholic Church.

You claim to know what Catholics believe, right?

So have you read the catechism?

You're jumping to conclusions. I'm not Catholic. I'm Protestant (Methodist), so why would I read your cathechism?

Do you know what happened 70 AD now and why it's important?

I don't expect you to know why Pope Francis is wrong. Evos are usually wrong. He's a liberal Pope, but not necessarily a bad one despite being wrong about science like you are. Besides, this topic doesn't belong in Religion and Ethics. It should be Science and Technology.

Francis is a pedophile. The man literally wears the boy lover symbol on his garbs. This is him at world youth day 2019 wearing the exact symbol that the FBI themselves said in 2007 was one of the symbols of the pedophile groups. This symbol is for boy lover. WAKE UP

View attachment 287958

What you do here is defaming hate speech, that's all. You hurt with this "message" even one of the 10 commandements. Nevertheless I agree with your conclusion: Wake up!

The pope is going down and so are countless other people the only thing you can do is sit and watch while it happens

 

[ding]

The catechism of the Catholic Church.

You claim to know what Catholics believe, right?

So have you read the catechism?

You're jumping to conclusions. I'm not Catholic. I'm Protestant (Methodist), so why would I read your cathechism?

Do you know what happened 70 AD now and why it's important?

I don't expect you to know why Pope Francis is wrong. Evos are usually wrong. He's a liberal Pope, but not necessarily a bad one despite being wrong about science like you are. Besides, this topic doesn't belong in Religion and Ethics. It should be Science and Technology.

I asked you if you had read the catechism because you claim to know what Catholics believe. The catechism states what Catholics believe. It is literally the only place you can go to find out what Catholics believe.

So which of my beliefs are not what Catholics believe?

Where did I claim I know what Catholics believe ? Aren't you the one who's supposed to know with all the pontification you do on R&E (usually over atheists who do not know)? What I said was if you knew your Catholic dogma, then you would be running rings around me. You would be teaching me a lesson. I would be aware of how strong your faith is.

You still do not know what the significance of 70 AD is or else you would've answered my question. It's when the Romans destroyed the Temple of Jerusalem. If you know your Catholic catechism, then you would know its significance.

Let's start with this one.

No. We’re going to start with what I believe and have been arguing. That God created existence and man arose from that creation.

Which means that God created space and time and man evolved from that creation according to the laws of nature.

So is that a Catholic belief or not?

We were discussing Catholic catechism since you brought it up. Where does it say what you just stated? You do not have a source, and it does not sound like anything I ever heard.

I don't think you know much Catholic catechism because if you did, then you would know what the significance of 70 AD meant for the RCC.

I. CATECHESIS ON CREATION

282 Catechesis on creation is of major importance. It concerns the very foundations of human and Christian life: for it makes explicit the response of the Christian faith to the basic question that men of all times have asked themselves:120 "Where do we come from?" "Where are we going?" "What is our origin?" "What is our end?" "Where does everything that exists come from and where is it going?" The two questions, the first about the origin and the second about the end, are inseparable. They are decisive for the meaning and orientation of our life and actions.

283 The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: "It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements. . . for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me."121

284 The great interest accorded to these studies is strongly stimulated by a question of another order, which goes beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences. It is not only a question of knowing when and how the universe arose physically, or when man appeared, but rather of discovering the meaning of such an origin: is the universe governed by chance, blind fate, anonymous necessity, or by a transcendent, intelligent and good Being called "God"? And if the world does come from God's wisdom and goodness, why is there evil? Where does it come from? Who is responsible for it? Is there any liberation from it?

285 Since the beginning the Christian faith has been challenged by responses to the question of origins that differ from its own. Ancient religions and cultures produced many myths concerning origins. Some philosophers have said that everything is God, that the world is God, or that the development of the world is the development of God (Pantheism). Others have said that the world is a necessary emanation arising from God and returning to him. Still others have affirmed the existence of two eternal principles, Good and Evil, Light and Darkness, locked, in permanent conflict (Dualism, Manichaeism). According to some of these conceptions, the world (at least the physical world) is evil, the product of a fall, and is thus to be rejected or left behind (Gnosticism). Some admit that the world was made by God, but as by a watch-maker who, once he has made a watch, abandons it to itself (Deism). Finally, others reject any transcendent origin for the world, but see it as merely the interplay of matter that has always existed (Materialism). All these attempts bear witness to the permanence and universality of the question of origins. This inquiry is distinctively human.

286 Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason,122 even if this knowledge is often obscured and disfigured by error. This is why faith comes to confirm and enlighten reason in the correct understanding of this truth: "By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear."123

287 The truth about creation is so important for all of human life that God in his tenderness wanted to reveal to his People everything that is salutary to know on the subject. Beyond the natural knowledge that every man can have of the Creator,124 God progressively revealed to Israel the mystery of creation. He who chose the patriarchs, who brought Israel out of Egypt, and who by choosing Israel created and formed it, this same God reveals himself as the One to whom belong all the peoples of the earth, and the whole earth itself; he is the One who alone "made heaven and earth".125

288 Thus the revelation of creation is inseparable from the revelation and forging of the covenant of the one God with his People. Creation is revealed as the first step towards this covenant, the first and universal witness to God's all-powerful love.126 And so, the truth of creation is also expressed with growing vigor in the message of the prophets, the prayer of the psalms and the liturgy, and in the wisdom sayings of the Chosen People.127

289 Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. Read in the light of Christ, within the unity of Sacred Scripture and in the living Tradition of the Church, these texts remain the principal source for catechesis on the mysteries of the "beginning": creation, fall, and promise of salvation.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Creator

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Therefore life begins with mind and ends in mind, because the inevitable result of life and time are mind, and with infinite life and infinite time comes infinite mind, ie., God.

I believe the material world was created by Mind, and that Mind has always existed and will always exist.

I believe the universe is an incubator, or more precisely, a womb created for the development of Man to eventually be BORN AGAIN into the Family of God -- Jesus being the "FIRSTBORN OF MANY BRETHREN"