Is there a libertarian approach to poverty that *doesn't* come down to "just stop being poor"?

[Dad2three]

Distibutist is interesting, I hadn't heard of it before. It reminds me of the old quip that if we redistributed all the wealth in America evenly amongst everyone, it would end up back in the same hands within a generation. Guys like me would hustle like heck to accumulate wealth and others would buy lotto tickets and smokes.

As a libertarian leaning person, no, there is probably not a better Libertarian answer which is a shortcoming in libertarianism - it doesn't accommodate nuance, even in the face of failure. Sure, if we cut out all govt benis more people would work. And some would starve and some would steal and end up in jail or shot.

The whole conversation misses the goal; is our goal to provide a minimal standard of living in America or to force people to work and not freeload? I love the latter but have accepted leaches and bums as part of the human experience. When I was younger I spent time and energy getting wound up about the dependent class but as I age I've realize that I'm better served taking my limited time and energy and working harder and smarted, not worrying about the freeloaders.

Harder for Americans to Rise From Lower Rungs

Benjamin Franklin did it. Henry Ford did it. And American life is built on the faith that others can do it, too: rise from humble origins to economic heights. “Movin’ on up,” George Jefferson-style, is not only a sitcom song but a civil religion.

But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe. The mobility gap has been widely discussed in academic circles, but a sour season of mass unemployment and street protests has moved the discussion toward center stage.


Former Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, a Republican candidate for president, warned this fall that movement “up into the middle income is actually greater, the mobility in Europe, than it is in America.” National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that “most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.” Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that “mobility from the very bottom up” is “where the United States lags behind.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html

 

[Dad2three]

'Is there a libertarian approach to poverty that *doesn't* come down to "just stop being poor"?'

No.

We've been over this, C. If the only way you can conceive of helping the poor is using government to force others to do it - then you're right, libertarians don't offer you anything. But some of us aren't so fixated on government as the be-all, end-all representation of society. We can, and should, take care of each other. We just don't think we need to employ coercion for that to happen.

In fact, Americans contributed over $350 billion to the charities of their choice in 2014 without gov't coercion, and that's just on the books. The shadow giving - that which we don't or can't show on our taxes - amounts to billions more. We don't need gov't to make us do the right thing and one could argue that our expansive (and expensive) gov't freebie system - one that some pols use to get elected - is a major factor in the perpetuation of multi-generational poverty.

YES, Because YOUR system worked soooo well pre Gov't interference right Bubs?

Charity? Like Mormons 1% of their Charity going to the poor and about 80% to proselytizing?





Bargain for billionaires: Why philanthropy is more about P.R. than progress

Even when philanthropy is benign, it is inefficient. In every other developed nation (and the U.S. until recently), everyone, including the rich, pays lots of money in taxes and that funds education, healthcare and daycare. In the U.S., the rich pay significantly less, and charities must beg them for money in order to treat the poor. Hospitals and homeless shelters must dedicate time and energy to wooing billionaires for a pittance.



...For one, charitable contributions in 2011 were only about $300 billion, far below the $707 billion that the government spends on income security and healthcare for the poor. Given the relative weakness of the U.S. safety net already, one funded entirely on charity would be abysmal. And $300 billion is all charitable donations; many donations aren’t aimed at helping the poor, but instead religious or cultural endeavors. One study finds that of the $250 billion given to charity in 2005, only about 30 percent went to aid the poor.

Bargain for billionaires: Why philanthropy is more about P.R. than progress - Salon.com





Or the billions spent on Alice Walton's in Arkansas, that hot bed of travel?


Report: Walmart's Billionaire Waltons Give Almost None Of Own Cash To Foundation


The report goes on to detail how the Foundation has been funded over the years, namely by tax-avoiding trusts established with assets provided by the late Sam, Helen and John Walton or their estates. The study found that 99% of the Foundation’s contributions since 2008 have been channeled through 21 Charitable Lead Annuity Trusts. These CLATs, as they’re known, are specifically designed to help ultra-wealthy families avoid estate and gift taxes.

While using foundations to thwart the tax man is nothing new for the very rich, Walmart 1 Percent describes the family’s philanthropic activities as less a tax dodge and more another “outpost in the vast Walton family business empire”:

Report: Walmart's Billionaire Waltons Give Almost None Of Own Cash To Foundation

 

[Uncensored2008]

Tesla is not a small scale capitalist now and has huge plans to be the biggest auto maker in the world!!

See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?

He isn't now, but he sure was when he started. Musk was a South African immigrant who hustled for backing and created a monster.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Harder for Americans to Rise From Lower Rungs

Benjamin Franklin did it. Henry Ford did it. And American life is built on the faith that others can do it, too: rise from humble origins to economic heights. “Movin’ on up,” George Jefferson-style, is not only a sitcom song but a civil religion.

But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe. The mobility gap has been widely discussed in academic circles, but a sour season of mass unemployment and street protests has moved the discussion toward center stage.


Former Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, a Republican candidate for president, warned this fall that movement “up into the middle income is actually greater, the mobility in Europe, than it is in America.” National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that “most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.” Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that “mobility from the very bottom up” is “where the United States lags behind.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html

It's my day for bashing stupid people with Elon Musk.

Now I'm not saying Eddie is as stupid as you Dumb2three, but he comes close at times. Musk started with nothing and rose to the top. A white South African - perhaps the most hated person among you scumbag leftists, yet he raised capital and built a company that now you same gutter scum democrats love.

 

[Dad2three]

Harder for Americans to Rise From Lower Rungs

Benjamin Franklin did it. Henry Ford did it. And American life is built on the faith that others can do it, too: rise from humble origins to economic heights. “Movin’ on up,” George Jefferson-style, is not only a sitcom song but a civil religion.

But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe. The mobility gap has been widely discussed in academic circles, but a sour season of mass unemployment and street protests has moved the discussion toward center stage.


Former Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, a Republican candidate for president, warned this fall that movement “up into the middle income is actually greater, the mobility in Europe, than it is in America.” National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that “most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.” Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that “mobility from the very bottom up” is “where the United States lags behind.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html

It's my day for bashing stupid people with Elon Musk.

Now I'm not saying Eddie is as stupid as you Dumb2three, but he comes close at times. Musk started with nothing and rose to the top. A white South African - perhaps the most hated person among you scumbag leftists, yet he raised capital and built a company that now you same gutter scum democrats love.

Anecdotal evidence? Well THAT certainly disproves the posit right? lol

To paraphrase special Ed

"See why we call conservatives liars, fools and ignorant tools"

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

"See why we call conservatives liars, fools and ignorant tools"

if our Founders were liars and ignorant for liking freedom and capitalism please explain why or admit you lack the IQ to be here.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Report: Walmart's Billionaire Waltons Give Almost None Of Own Cash To Foundation

Of course the Waltons are American heroes for saving Americans %trillions of dollars. Imagine if dumbto 3 ruled and our heroes were those raised prices on everything we had to buy!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

. There is no "libertarian" solution to poverty.

sure there is: switch to freedom and capitalism as China just did to instantly eliminate 40% of entire world's poverty!!

How is that for an approach to poverty??

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

. There is no "libertarian" solution to poverty.

sure there is: switch to freedom and capitalism as China just did to instantly eliminate 40% of entire world's poverty!!

How is that for an approach to poverty??

you just hate communism because you're too lazy to work for the state. if you really loved America then you would have no problem working 14 hours a day for Her. since you hate America you're a muslim as well as a liberal.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

. There is no "libertarian" solution to poverty.

sure there is: switch to freedom and capitalism as China just did to instantly eliminate 40% of entire world's poverty!!

How is that for an approach to poverty??

you just hate communism because you're too lazy to work for the state. if you really loved America then you would have no problem working 14 hours a day for Her. since you hate America you're a muslim as well as a liberal.

Pedro is admitting he's too stupid and liberal for debate. Ever see a conservative or libertarian afraid to debate? What does that teach you?

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

. There is no "libertarian" solution to poverty.

sure there is: switch to freedom and capitalism as China just did to instantly eliminate 40% of entire world's poverty!!

How is that for an approach to poverty??

you just hate communism because you're too lazy to work for the state. if you really loved America then you would have no problem working 14 hours a day for Her. since you hate America you're a muslim as well as a liberal.

Pedro is admitting he's too stupid and liberal for debate. Ever see a conservative or libertarian afraid to debate? What does that teach you?

Your idea of a debate is to ignore any inconvenient facts, build and knock down strawmen, and spew hyperbole instead of reasoned arguments. I gave you the choice between explaining why you're to be taken seriously or being regarded as entertainment. You chose the latter. This is just fun for me now.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

. There is no "libertarian" solution to poverty.

sure there is: switch to freedom and capitalism as China just did to instantly eliminate 40% of entire world's poverty!!

How is that for an approach to poverty??

you just hate communism because you're too lazy to work for the state. if you really loved America then you would have no problem working 14 hours a day for Her. since you hate America you're a muslim as well as a liberal.

Pedro is admitting he's too stupid and liberal for debate. Ever see a conservative or libertarian afraid to debate? What does that teach you?

Your idea of a debate is to ignore any inconvenient facts, build and knock down strawmen, and spew hyperbole instead of reasoned arguments. I gave you the choice between explaining why you're to be taken seriously or being regarded as entertainment. You chose the latter. This is just fun for me now.

typical liberal too stupid for debate. Ever see a conservative afraid to debate? What does that teach you??

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Your idea of a debate is to ignore any inconvenient facts, build and knock down strawmen, and spew hyperbole instead of reasoned arguments. I gave you the choice between explaining why you're to be taken seriously or being regarded as entertainment. You chose the latter. This is just fun for me now.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

instead of reasoned arguments.

dear, if there is a conservative argument that is not reasoned please say what it is or admit you lack the IQ to be here as a typical liberal?

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

No no no. Technically you're the liberal here. I don't really fit into the post-Enlightenment paradigm that well.

Your idea of a debate is to ignore any inconvenient facts, build and knock down strawmen, and spew hyperbole instead of reasoned arguments. I gave you the choice between explaining why you're to be taken seriously or being regarded as entertainment. You chose the latter. This is just fun for me now.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

instead of reasoned arguments.

show a conservative or libertarian argument that is not reasoned or admit you lack the IQ to be here.

 

[OnePercenter]

NO!

It's true! Certainly not via government. There is no "libertarian" solution to poverty because we don't believe it's a problem government should be used to solve. There are, however, any number of ways to alleviate p overty that libertarians support. Just not those that employ the coercive power of legislation.

Libertarians are a business-worshiping cultish religion, whom along with Republicans caused the poverty problem.

 

[OnePercenter]

My point is simple- the "poor" in the US have a very high standard of living compared to most of the world.

Only when you compare the US poor with the poor in third world countries.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

NO!

It's true! Certainly not via government. There is no "libertarian" solution to poverty because we don't believe it's a problem government should be used to solve. There are, however, any number of ways to alleviate p overty that libertarians support. Just not those that employ the coercive power of legislation.

Libertarians are a business-worshiping cultish religion, whom along with Republicans caused the poverty problem.

dear, libertarians and conservatives support capitalism. Ever heard of East/ West Germany?? Cuba/Fla??? Red China/Hong Kong/Taiwan.

See why we have to be 100% positive that liberalism is based in pure ignorance?? What other conclusion is possible?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

My point is simple- the "poor" in the US have a very high standard of living compared to most of the world.

Only when you compare the US poor with the poor in third world countries.

too stupid as always!!! A poor family of 4 here gets free state of the art health care, education, housing, food stamps, roads, military etc worth $90,000 a year!!

not just stupid but 100% stupid and liberal!