Is There One Sound/valid Syllogistic Argument For The Existence Of God?

The Little god Boss in the Gap Fallacy is Refuted Again!

How about this:
1. Given God created all things in the universe
2. there was some reason or logic for God to create the universe
3. the reason or logic had to exist BEFORE God created the universe
Since #1 and #3 contradict each other then
A. either the logic or reason was already there,
B. the whole universe was already preexistent also and not created
C. we don't know if it was A or B
I think Boss is saying
C
we don't know, we can only theorize what God's logic or reasons
are and what is the process of God's creation or order of the steps etc.
As for human logic:
A. Given God created all things, including humans, human nature and conscience
B. Human logic is part of the human conscience, and the laws of logic and
science are part of the laws of creation
C. then one could argue that when God created humans and our relationship
to all things in the world, then the logic ON THAT LEVEL was created by God
Boss is also arguing that
all we HAVE is our human logic.


Boss is arguing la-la. His "reasoning" is utterly arbitrary. Like all relativists, he's a slogan spouter. Those things that he likes that obviously hold true due to the logic we have he believes. Those things that he doesn't like that obviously hold true due to the logic that we have (For what other logic do we have but the logic that we have?) he disbelieves.

Nevertheless, I understand Boss' rational. I always have.

The bottom line: Boss necessarily holds that our logic anthropomorphizes God!

That's inevitably what he holds to be true. In fact, I know Boss has followed the line of reasoning that necessarily follows from his premise to its conclusion because he emphatically stated humans tend to ascribe sentience to God and, therefore, believe God desires to have relations with us due to the fact that human logic is the only means they have to think about God. And Boss is right. That's true. Our logic is the only means we have to think about God or about anything else. I do not dispute that.

But Boss doesn't stop there.

He goes on to say, that "only rubes like Rawlings actually believe that God has sentience or desires to have relations with us as our logic suggests. Rawlings is silly to believe that. I am more enlightened than Rawlings as I have a special logic that is not human. God created the logic we have for us because it leads us to believe spiritual things and to pursue spiritual things that are good for us [paraphrase]."

Hence, Boss knows for a fact that God does . . . not have sentience and does not desire to have relations with us!

Crickets Chirping

Non sequitur!

Rawlings: "So why do you refuse to believe that, Boss?"

Boss: "I refuse to believe that! We can only believe what's true, not know what's true, except what I know is true and you don't?"

Boss can't know that to be true, because his secrete knowledge does not necessarily follow.

According to Boss, there's no possibility at all that God theologized us. No. That's not possible. Nope. That couldn't be true. God didn't give us His logic. Nah. Human logic was created. There's no way in hell the logic we have is God's logic. That's stupid. Only idiots believe that.

In fact, Emily, you don't have Boss entirely right. He didn't just say that God created human logic. He said God created logic. Logic didn't exist before God created it.

(Though in his most recent post he wrote that in the absence of Logic is chaos. I wonder what that Logic is.)

Boss holds that God doesn't have logic. Doesn't use logic. Doesn't need logic. He also said that God doesn't have a mind or consciousness. Doesn't use these things. Doesn't need these things. Boss knows these things are true.

And how do we know that Boss is necessarily saying he knows these things are true, isn't merely saying that he believes these things are true?

Answer: Because when I tell him that none of these ridiculous ideas necessarily follow, he tells me that I'm an idiot. He tells me that anyone who believes (you know, like the billions of followers of the major monotheistic religions of the world) that God has sentience and desires to have relations with us are idiots.

So all these billions of people are idiots, but Boss has the inside track. He knows that our logic anthropomorphizes God for our own good, but God's . . . nonexistent mind . . . is not really like ours in anyway whatsoever. God didn't theologize us with His logic. That's not logically possible.

Boss knows this based on a non sequitur, based on something not recommended by logic at all, based on some special knowledge, some special logic, contrary to the ramifications of the logic we have . . . based on something he could not possibly know unless he were God Himself. (By the way, How does God known anything at all without a mind?) Boss thinks he's God. More to the point, Boss is a little god standing in the gap, just making things up as he goes along. He's a slogan spouter.

And Boss knows these things because according to him we can only believe things; we can't know things. Oh, wait! Apparently, Boss doesn't really mean we. He just means the rest of us mere mortals. He, on the other hand, knows things none of the rest of us can know.

That's weird.

Boss knows things that contradict the one thing that all the major religions of the word in history have in common, the one thing that all the major philosophical and theological constructs of divinity have in common, hold to be necessarily true, logically: God did not create logic, but bestowed His logic on His creation.

You see, the relativist is just an intellectual bully. He's arrogant, boastful, full of piggish pride. He's a petulant child. Smarmy. Some of the things that are logically true about God according to the laws of thought are cool. Other things that are logically true about God according to the laws of thought are not cool. It just depends on how this or that thing tastes in his mouth. The things that might have a tinge of obligation attached to them, curiously enough, aren't cool. Like I said, the relativist is a slogan spouter.

He's the self-anointed arbiter of truth who gets angry and abusive when you point out to him the non sequiturs and contradictions of his intellectual bigotry . The relativist is insulted by these things. How dare the commonsensical rubes of the world point out the idiocy of the unexamined decrees of the enlightened folks of the world!

I have always plainly seen and understood what you presented in the above, Emily, on the grounds of epistemological skepticism. The cogitation that God must have bestowed His logic on us could arguably be a freak of nature, a mere fluke of the bioneurologically hardwired logic of human cognition. It might not be ultimately or transcendentally true beyond the confines of our minds. That's because I'm an objective observer of things.

Though I do not believe that to be true in the face of logical necessity and probability, I can clearly see that what Boss is asserting might be true as a matter of potentiality—a hypothetical that is not outside the bounds of possibility, even though it be a weak possibility that actually undermines the proofs for God's existence, which flies right over Boss' head. No wonder the atheists like it, that is . . . when they're not arguing against Boss' other irrationalities that conflict with their irrationalities.

Nevertheless, I allow, unlike Boss who allows no proposition but his own irrational proposition, that Boss could be right. But let's be clear about something: If Boss is right, our logic necessarily does anthropomorphize God and, therefore, is not directing us to understand anything that's necessarily true about God at all. Boss has no grounds whatsoever to assert anything about God, not even the idea that we instinctively know God exists.

Paradox. Contradiction. Incoherency.

That's just Boss contradicting the logic the rest of us have with the special logic of the little god in the gap that he is. That's what Boss is calling reasonable. That's what he's saying he knows to be true after saying that we can't know anything to be true. That's the paradox of his believe-know dichotomy, fraught with incoherency and chaos, that applies to everyone else but him.

The little god Boss in the gap fallacy.
 
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So you still have nothing? Thanks for knowing when you are bested.

What a total phony. I asked you if you existed, punk. You said that you know you existed, punk. I asked how you came to exist, punk. "Stop asking questions", you said, punk. How did you come to exist, punk? You're the first piece of evidence for God's existence, punk. You know that either the universe made you or that everything was created by God, punk. Those are the options, punk.
Hey, ease up there friend. No need to stop being a lady about it.

My existence really doesn't prove the existence of God.

Son, logic proves or disproves things regarding empirical and transcendental propositions for justified true belief/knowledge. Science verifies or falsifies things.

Your existence and the existence of the universe are in fact the evidence for God's existence.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10122836/
So The universe needs a god to create it? Why? Prove it.

I see that you gave that information all the thought that you give to the chore of brushing your teeth. God is speaking to you, Son, right now in your mind, but you're not listening . . . even after I gave you all the clues in The Seven Things that God has revealed to mankind from the heavens. These things are in your mind and in the universe in which you live. He's telling you that I AM! You didn't hear His voice because you're not listening to Him, but to the noise of popular culture. Think very carefully about The Seven Things and pay particular attention to #6. Get serious. The evidence and the proofs for God existence are inside your mind and all around you.
WhileI am glad you left behind the attitude, I don't think you understand. I didn't ask you for what you provided. I asked you for proof.

Don't worry with my faith, it is unshakeable by things as frivolous as culture.
 
According to the laws of thought, our logic was not created, for our logic is God's logic bestowed on us by God. We cannot coherently think our way out of that axiom.

.
certainly, the hungry lion will have the same response ... :banana:


step away from your bible mdr, try thinking clearly.

.
 
So we can add another poster who came here in earnest that these two charlatan scumbags couldn't refrain from ad homming like a couple of prissy teenagers.

How many does that make, now?

I lost track around ten.
"When the debate is lost slander becomes the weapon of the loser" - Socrates

I don't really take the name calling offensively, it's a sign that they have lost the argument.

Is the noise of popular culture stocking your ego? Listen to God instead.
Why preach to me? Just post your proof our admit you don't have any.
 
So we can add another poster who came here in earnest that these two charlatan scumbags couldn't refrain from ad homming like a couple of prissy teenagers.

How many does that make, now?

I lost track around ten.
"When the debate is lost slander becomes the weapon of the loser" - Socrates
.

I don't really take the name calling offensively, it's a sign that they have lost the argument.

I don't really take the name calling offensively, it's a sign that they have lost the argument.
.

they lose because they have no practical application.

.
Funny how md shifted gears to prattle about popular culture and such while preaching his sermons.

Anything to avoid the question.
 
According to the laws of thought, our logic was not created, for our logic is God's logic bestowed on us by God. We cannot coherently think our way out of that axiom.

.
certainly, the hungry lion will have the same response ... :banana:


step away from your bible mdr, try thinking clearly.

.
He isn't even looking at the bible he is making shit up that is in opposition to the bible.
 
We can imagine that God's logic is different than ours. We can imagine that our logic is not God's logic, that our logic necessarily anthropomorphizes God, yielding ideas about Him that might or might not be true all we want, but we cannot explain how God's logic could be different than our own without asserting absurdities and/or the inherent contradictions of self-negation that positively prove the opposite is logically true.

^ RE: above ^ I get this same impression from Boss' objections also,
or close enough, or coming from the other side: where
to ASSUME we are aligned with God's logic is presupposing
and projection our perception. Very close even if you are coming
from view A and applying to view B, and Boss is coming from
view B and applying similar to view A. ^
======================

V RE: below V

MD said:
MD said:
could God not hold or be bound by the law of identity: for any given A: A = A? God holds that for any given A: A A? How's that? God's a relativist, the God of contradiction and chaos? God God?

Because God is infinite and we are taking representations of God
one presentation at a time,
we have to be careful we didn't do things like this:

Person A says God = Life Creation Universe etc.
Person B says God = Love Good will Positive Energy
Person C says God = Truth Wisdom Knowledge

So God = C values
God = B values
God = A values
but A B C

BreezeWood is looking at God as beyond just Creator

Boss also does not make the leap that the representation of God in your
TAG is the most universal effective consistent or "only way" to frame
or present God

Just because we don't agree how to represent God best,
does not mean we ARENT talking about the same God.

I dn't know why BW insists we are talking about two different Gods
as if teh Christian God is not a representation of the Almighty BW believes in.

There is only one God by definition of what we mean by God
so this has to all point to the same source.

and we just each have different ways to develop a construct
to explain the relations and differences or connections between
us as individuals, other people in society, and the collective whole.



 
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So we can add another poster who came here in earnest that these two charlatan scumbags couldn't refrain from ad homming like a couple of prissy teenagers.

How many does that make, now?

I lost track around ten.
"When the debate is lost slander becomes the weapon of the loser" - Socrates

I don't really take the name calling offensively, it's a sign that they have lost the argument.

Is the noise of popular culture stocking your ego? Listen to God instead.
Why preach to me? Just post your proof our admit you don't have any.

Actually, why preach to me? I just gave the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. Are you saying those things aren't true? Are you making an argument or just being rude? You asked me to provide information to you.

This is the first time I've talked you, but is this your pattern? You ask a question. I answer it with things you've never considered or thought about before. That's obvious! It looks like your mind's made up about things to which you obviously gave absolutely no serious consider.

It's your position that God has not proven His existence to mankind? Are you Christian? I see that there's a cross on your signature. If you don't believe me at this point then read the first chapter of Romans, beginning with verse 18. Then read the post on The Seven Things again . . . for reals. God is speaking to all of us all the time in our minds about Himself and His creation. That's a fact, not a sermon. You're saying you don't believe that? Your refusal to open you mind and seriously consider the things I've shared with you = there is no proof, or = an admission that there is no proof?

Really?

How's that?

How do you figured you've refuted something you haven't seriously considered at all? How do you figure you've refuted something when you haven't even dared to put anything into evidence regarding the things you imply to have refuted?

Hmm. The only reason I spoke to you in the first place is because Emily said you were an open-minded, thoughtful and tolerant person. Looks like she is wrong about you.
 
Thanks, Inevitable:
I believe it can be either way
the Universe/Creation/all things in existence/Collective truth
can be taken to be self-existent, with no beginning and no end, as the concept of God being infinite and eternal
that's one approach I see people relate to
or Life as we know it
can have a beginning point of Creation
OR
our PERCEPTION and self-awareness of laws and of existence
can have a beginning point

I have seen all these different ways

As long as people can understand and accept where the other person
frames the timeline, we can still align and discuss/agree on points
and principles WITHIN the laws of these systems.

One person can be looking at just Earth
another the Solar System
Another the Milky Way
and another the whole spiel

And we can still agree that
the laws of gravity work a certain way on Earth

Even if we don't agree on Quantum Physics
and if time being relative can be warped through wormholes or whatever,
we can agree that you can use
a combination of gravity and friction to walk across the floor.

We don't have to agree on what created this gravity
to use it and understand the basic concepts

Inevitable I will be so happy when we don't have
to argue about conditions that aren't necessary to agree on,
and we can focus on the practical stuff that can do the most good in the world,
like not arguing "how old the trees are the oranges came from"
or "when did the forces of nature first produce these trees"
to agree that Vitamin C in oranges helps the
body's natural immune system. if we had to agree on
all that other stuff BEFOREHAND we'd never get to the orange juice....
All I am really trying to do is to get people to think. I am afraid that in current company I feel much like Sisyphus.

Well I feel like the person who gets smashed to smithereens
when all the weight goes crashing
downhill and crushes whoever is at the very bottom
after everyone else scatters
 
Is the noise of popular culture stocking your ego? Listen to God instead.

1. one good thing I notice is that Inevitable is good at taking anotherwise
esoteric argument and keeping it real in local terms of direct experience.
Like asking hey let's see proof of God's existence on that level.

We need this to keep us anchored.

Inevitable is able to navigate both realms and keep them both real
and as consistent as possible, verbalizing when something is off soemwhere

MD you do this too but you focus on the intellectual terms
and go to extremes on that side, while Inevitable is not going to
compromise in house reality for theory in fancy terms. It has to be real, too.

I think this is a plus.

2. as for listening to God
by the time each of us can get past the noise
and really hear the good points each other is presenting
then we can better hear the whole of what God
is trying to reveal to us through this diverse exchange

I think your advice applies to all of us

we all need to get past the noise
and try to fine tune to each other!

Thanks MD I think this will get easier as we go

Once more people get in tune with
where the note C is and where the rest of the scale is,
the others will align as well.

then we can play some music ifwe
can tune all our instruments to align in harmony

we may not have the same ranges
or be in the same key or have the same sounds or timbres
but the songs we produce as a team with
our different voices and parts should be in harmony
 
So we can add another poster who came here in earnest that these two charlatan scumbags couldn't refrain from ad homming like a couple of prissy teenagers.

How many does that make, now?

I lost track around ten.
"When the debate is lost slander becomes the weapon of the loser" - Socrates

I don't really take the name calling offensively, it's a sign that they have lost the argument.

Is the noise of popular culture stocking your ego? Listen to God instead.
Why preach to me? Just post your proof our admit you don't have any.

Actually, why preach to me? I just gave the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. Are you saying those things aren't true? Are you making an argument or just being rude? You asked me to provide information to you.

This is the first time I've talked you, but is this your pattern? You ask a question. I answer it with things you've never considered or thought about before. That's obvious! It looks like your mind's made up about things to which you obviously gave absolutely no serious consider.

It's your position that God has not proven His existence to mankind? Are you Christian? I see that there's a cross on your signature. If you don't believe me at this point then read the first chapter of Romans, beginning with verse 18. Then read the post on The Seven Things again . . . for reals. God is speaking to all of us all the time in our minds about Himself and His creation. That's a fact, not a sermon. You're saying you don't believe that? Your refusal to open you mind and seriously consider the things I've shared with you = there is no proof, or = an admission that there is no proof?

Really?

How's that?

How do you figured you've refuted something you haven't seriously considered at all? How do you figure you've refuted something when you haven't even dared to put anything into evidence regarding the things you imply to have refuted?

Hmm. The only reason I spoke to you in the first place is because Emily said you were an open-minded, thoughtful and tolerant person. Looks like she is wrong about you.
God asked me to take a leap of faith. That was extremely difficult for me. But if there is proof why would I need to take a leap of faith? What value would faith have if there was fact?

I came to my faith by asking these questions. And realizing nobody knew the answers beyond speculation.

All I have done is ask questions. If my questions make you feel like I am persecuting you, perhaps it's because I already know the answer as do you and you are attempting to give me falsehoods because it is something you would like to know.

I personally don't need proof, I don't need to see angles, I don't need to hear God speak. Frankly I don't really want to. Faith is good enough for me. I don't feel the need to call people phoney Christians frankly that isn't my place. If you ask me, I am Christian. Given things about who I am you probably wouldn't think that I am. So take it or leave it.

Back to the point, if you have proof that God exists please show it to the atheists. Or tell me so that I can deliver the message. Why wouldn't you?
 
Thanks, Inevitable:
I believe it can be either way
the Universe/Creation/all things in existence/Collective truth
can be taken to be self-existent, with no beginning and no end, as the concept of God being infinite and eternal
that's one approach I see people relate to
or Life as we know it
can have a beginning point of Creation
OR
our PERCEPTION and self-awareness of laws and of existence
can have a beginning point

I have seen all these different ways

As long as people can understand and accept where the other person
frames the timeline, we can still align and discuss/agree on points
and principles WITHIN the laws of these systems.

One person can be looking at just Earth
another the Solar System
Another the Milky Way
and another the whole spiel

And we can still agree that
the laws of gravity work a certain way on Earth

Even if we don't agree on Quantum Physics
and if time being relative can be warped through wormholes or whatever,
we can agree that you can use
a combination of gravity and friction to walk across the floor.

We don't have to agree on what created this gravity
to use it and understand the basic concepts

Inevitable I will be so happy when we don't have
to argue about conditions that aren't necessary to agree on,
and we can focus on the practical stuff that can do the most good in the world,
like not arguing "how old the trees are the oranges came from"
or "when did the forces of nature first produce these trees"
to agree that Vitamin C in oranges helps the
body's natural immune system. if we had to agree on
all that other stuff BEFOREHAND we'd never get to the orange juice....
All I am really trying to do is to get people to think. I am afraid that in current company I feel much like Sisyphus.

Well I feel like the person who gets smashed to smithereens
when all the weight goes crashing
downhill and crushes whoever is at the very bottom
after everyone else scatters
Don't give up, no matter how hard it seems how pointless it may feel your words do make a difference They may be insignificant at first but like all good things time nourishes it.
 
We can imagine that God's logic is different than ours. We can imagine that our logic is not God's logic, that our logic necessarily anthropomorphizes God, yielding ideas about Him that might or might not be true all we want, but we cannot explain how God's logic could be different than our own without asserting absurdities and/or the inherent contradictions of self-negation that positively prove the opposite is logically true.

^ RE: above ^ I get this same impression from Boss' objections also,
or close enough, or coming from the other side: where
to ASSUME we are aligned with God's logic is presupposing
and projection our perception. Very close even if you are coming
from view A and applying to view B, and Boss is coming from
view B and applying similar to view A. ^
======================

V RE: below V

MD said:
MD said:
could God not hold or be bound by the law of identity: for any given A: A = A? God holds that for any given A: A A? How's that? God's a relativist, the God of contradiction and chaos? God God?

Because God is infinite and we are taking representations of God
one presentation at a time,
we have to be careful we didn't do things like this:

Person A says God = Life Creation Universe etc.
Person B says God = Love Good will Positive Energy
Person C says God = Truth Wisdom Knowledge

So God = C values
God = B values
God = A values
but A B C

BreezeWood is looking at God as beyond just Creator

Boss also does not make the leap that the representation of God in your
TAG is the most universal effective consistent or "only way" to frame
or present God


I agree with BreezeWood. God is more than just the Creator according to the laws of logic endowed to us by nature or God, whatever suits one, so why is he arguing with me over that? I can't do anything about that. I have no control over BreezeWood's emotions or biases, just like I have no control over Inevitable's closed-mindedness. As for Boss and the TAG, that's not true. Boss holds that organic logic proves God exists. He holds that axiom of the laws of human thought to be necessarily true, logically, and of course it is.

Then he does something odd. He abandons these very same imperatives of human logic and refuses to believe them any further when it comes to the objective facts regarding the nature of divine consciousness. He cannot explain, just like no other human on Earth can explain, how God's logic could possibly be different than our logic. It is pride that will not allow Boss to admit that fact, Emily. You're not helping him by making excuses for him. The proofs of the TAG cannot be refuted. It's not possible to do.

"I refuse to even consider or think about the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin that are universally self-evident, known to mankind since time immemorial, due to the fact of the bioneurologically hardwired laws of human thought" is not a sound or responsible response, Emily!

"I refuse to believe what the bioneurologically hardwired laws of human thought prove" is not a sound or responsible response, Emily!

"I don't care what the bioneurologically hardwired laws of human thought prove" is not a sound or responsible response, Emily!

"The formal axioms of the bioneurologically hardwired laws of human thought are informal logical fallacies" is not a sound or responsible response, Emily! If that were so, 2 + 2 = 4 would be an informal logical fallacy, Emily!

The informal logical fallacies of secondary propositions which are not logically possible or necessary, do not apply to the innate, primary, intuitive, a priori axioms of human cognition, Emily!

Logic is used to prove or disprove things, Emily! Science is used to verify or falsify things, Emily! Those are the proper terms and conventions of logic and science, Emily!

These are the only responses that most of the atheists and relativistic theists, like Inevitable, have asserted against the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin.

Check Inevitable out. I thought you said he was an intellectually open-minded, thoughtful and tolerant person. He comes onto this thread way late in the discussion telling me to admit there is no proof for God's existence when every damn one of the objections to the irrefutable axioms regarding God's existence have been utterly destroyed. There have been nearly a dozen monotheistic theists, including me, two pantheists, three agnostics and even two atheists on this thread (persons who understand the formal standards and conventions for logic, science and justified truth belief/knowledge) who have told these knuckle heads that they don't know what they’re talking about. But the real truth of the matter, Emily, is that one doesn't necessarily have to be a scholar to grasp these things. All one has to do is open one's friggin' mind for once in one's life and think!

Emily, for the last time, it is not possible to form a consensus on the basis of irrationalism or on the basis of false standards and conventions for logic, science and justified truth belief/knowledge. I'm standing on the only foundation of absolute objectivity for mutual understanding. I cannot force anyone to come and stand with me on the only foundation of absolute objectivity for mutual understanding.
 
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We can imagine that God's logic is different than ours. We can imagine that our logic is not God's logic, that our logic necessarily anthropomorphizes God, yielding ideas about Him that might or might not be true all we want, but we cannot explain how God's logic could be different than our own without asserting absurdities and/or the inherent contradictions of self-negation that positively prove the opposite is logically true.

^ RE: above ^ I get this same impression from Boss' objections also,
or close enough, or coming from the other side: where
to ASSUME we are aligned with God's logic is presupposing
and projection our perception. Very close even if you are coming
from view A and applying to view B, and Boss is coming from
view B and applying similar to view A. ^
======================

V RE: below V

MD said:
MD said:
could God not hold or be bound by the law of identity: for any given A: A = A? God holds that for any given A: A A? How's that? God's a relativist, the God of contradiction and chaos? God God?

Because God is infinite and we are taking representations of God
one presentation at a time,
we have to be careful we didn't do things like this:

Person A says God = Life Creation Universe etc.
Person B says God = Love Good will Positive Energy
Person C says God = Truth Wisdom Knowledge

So God = C values
God = B values
God = A values
but A B C

BreezeWood is looking at God as beyond just Creator

Boss also does not make the leap that the representation of God in your
TAG is the most universal effective consistent or "only way" to frame
or present God


I agree with BreezeWood. God is more than just the Creator according to the laws of logic endowed to us by nature or God, whatever suits one, so why is he arguing with me over that? I can't do anything about that. I have no control over BreezeWood's emotions or biases, just like I have no control over Inevitable's closed-mindedness. As for Boss and the TAG, that's not true. Boss holds that organic logic proves God exists. He holds that axiom of the laws of human thought to be necessarily true, logically, and of course it is.

Then he does something odd. He abandons these very same imperatives of human logic and refuses to believe them any further when it comes to the objective facts regarding the nature of divine consciousness. He cannot explain, just like no other human on Earth can explain, how God's logic could possibly be different than our logic. It is pride that will not allow Boss to admit that fact, Emily. You're not helping him by making excuses for him. The proofs of the TAG cannot be refuted. It's not possible to do.

"I refuse to even consider or think about the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin that are universally self-evident, known to mankind since time immemorial, due to the fact of the bioneurologically hardwired laws of human thought" is not a sound or responsible response, Emily!

"I refuse to believe what the bioneurologically hardwired laws of human thought prove" is not a sound or responsible response, Emily!

"I don't care what the bioneurologically hardwired laws of human thought prove" is not a sound or responsible response, Emily!

"The formal axioms of the bioneurologically hardwired laws of human thought are informal logical fallacies" is not a sound or responsible response, Emily! If that were so, 2 + 2 = 4 would be an informal logical fallacy, Emily!

The informal logical fallacies of secondary propositions which are not logically possible or necessary, do not apply to the innate, primary, intuitive, a priori axioms of human cognition, Emily!

Logic is used to prove or disprove things, Emily! Science is used to verify or falsify things, Emily! Those are the proper terms and conventions of logic and science, Emily!

These are the only responses that most of the atheists and relativistic theists, like Inevitable, have asserted against the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin.

Check Inevitable out. I thought you said he was an intellectually open-minded, thoughtful and tolerant person. He comes onto this thread way late in the discussion telling me to admit there is no proof for God's existence when every damn one of the objections to the irrefutable axioms regarding God's existence have been utterly destroyed. There have been nearly a dozen monotheistic theists, including me, two pantheists, three agnostics and even two atheists on this thread (persons who understand the formal standards and conventions for logic, science and justified truth belief/knowledge) who have told these knuckle heads that they don't know what they’re talking about. But the real truth of the matter, Emily, is that one doesn't necessarily have to be a scholar to grasp these things. All one has to do is open one's friggin' mind for once in one's life and think!

Emily, for the last time, it is not possible to form a consensus on the basis of irrationalism or on the basis of false standards and conventions for logic, science and justified truth belief/knowledge. I'm standing on the only foundation of absolute objectivity for mutual understanding. I cannot force anyone to come and stand with me on the only foundation of absolute objectivity for mutual understanding.
It's closed minded to ask a question of you? One you freely admitted having the answer for?

I don't understand.
 
:lmao:I believe that the phonies of the peanut gallery are "crazier than a paranoid schizophrenic with a megaphone haranguing a manic depressive hallucinating on LSD and holding a shotgun." :lol: I don't care who you are that's even funnier than a three-legged horse running in the Belmont Stakes. Would you please tell us how God's logic could be different from the logic of organic thought?
Organic Thought doesn't lead to the sacred, only the profane. Divine though leads to God.

You are attempting to make what is profane into what is sacred.

Did you get that banality from a fortune cookie?
No, are you an atheist?

No. I know better, on both counts.
Okay, because I can explain this both ways.

It isn't natural for man to believe in God. Itis natural for us to be selfish and think ourselves gods.

You are called, 1 Peter 2:21.

So you can use your favorite new word "benelity" to dismiss this statement. Continue with your egotistical dumbassery or you can realize that people have to choose to follow down a path that is narrow and difficult.

I really don't get the high and mighty attitude some people have. Why so defensive? God doesn't really require such behavior.

Believe in God or believe God exists? Those are not the same beliefs are they?

Where is the rude, petulant attitude coming from? Dumbassery? What dumbassery, son? You have no idea what has been demonstrated on this thread by me and other theists. NONE! If you're going to call something dumbassery than state what it is and why you think it's wrong. Address specific things, quote specific things and explain why they're wrong. Thus far, the only "high and mighty", the only "defensiveness" has been coming from you.

Further, the Bible does not teach that it is unnatural for man to believe that God exists or that God has not proven His existence to mankind. False! On the contrary, the Bible teaches the opposite is true on both counts. What it teaches in this regard is that man's nature is inherently corrupt and contrary to the things of God, that only a comparatively small portion of the human race will choose to believe in God's testimony, place their destiny in His hands, follow and obey Him as persons who do not merely believe that God exists, but as persons who believe in God and obey.

Inevitably, most men give themselves over to false gods in name only. Oh they will say they believe in God, for only a very small fraction of the world's population has ever held that God does not exist. Atheist and agnostics make up a very small fraction of the world's population regarding the issue of God's existence. Ultimately, the god they believe in, as you say, is themselves, including atheists and agnostics.

The topic of this OP is not about belief in God, but about the evidence and the proofs for God's existence by which men may come to believe in God with the help of God.

I am not talking about the belief in God, but the facts of the latter. And you have yet to come to terms with the facts of the latter or refute a single one of them.

Why the hostility, son? Do you believe in God? If so then why are you hostile to the claims of God regarding the objective facts of the latter that are in your mind and in the universe according to God's word, the Bible? Why are you hostile to the enterprise of divulging what these facts of human cognition are regarding the problems of existence and origin that reveal what God has proven to mankind about His existence?
 
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Organic Thought doesn't lead to the sacred, only the profane. Divine though leads to God.

You are attempting to make what is profane into what is sacred.

Did you get that banality from a fortune cookie?
No, are you an atheist?

No. I know better, on both counts.
Okay, because I can explain this both ways.

It isn't natural for man to believe in God. Itis natural for us to be selfish and think ourselves gods.

You are called, 1 Peter 2:21.

So you can use your favorite new word "benelity" to dismiss this statement. Continue with your egotistical dumbassery or you can realize that people have to choose to follow down a path that is narrow and difficult.

I really don't get the high and mighty attitude some people have. Why so defensive? God doesn't really require such behavior.

Believe in God or believe God exists? Those are not the same beliefs are they?

Where is the rude, petulant attitude coming from? Dumbassery? What dumbassery, son? You have no idea what has been demonstrated on this thread by me and other theists. NONE! If you're going to call something dumbassery than state what it is and why you think it's wrong. Address specific things, quote specific things and explain why they're wrong. Thus far, the only "high and mighty", the only "defensiveness" has been coming from you.

Further, the Bible does not teach that it is unnatural for man to believe that God exists or that God has not proven His existence to mankind. False! On the contrary, the Bible teaches the opposite is true on both counts. What it teaches in this regard is that man's nature is inherently corrupt and contrary to the things of God, that only a comparatively small portion of the human race will choose to believe in God's testimony, place their destiny in His hands, follow and obey Him as persons who do not merely believe that God exists, but as persons who believe in God and obey.

Inevitably, most men give themselves over to false gods in name only. Oh they will say they believe in God, for only a very small fraction of the world's population has ever held that God does not exist. Atheist and agnostics make up a very small fraction of the world's population regarding the issue of God's existence. Ultimately, the god they believe in, as you say, is themselves, including atheists and agnostics.

The topic of this OP is not about belief in God, but about the evidence and the proofs for God's existence by which men may come to believe in God with the help of God.

I am not talking about the belief in God, but the facts of the latter. And you have yet to come to terms with the facts of the latter or refute a single one of them.

Why the hostility, son? Do you believe in God? If so then why are you hostile to the claims of God regarding the objective facts of the latter that are in your mind and in the universe according to God's word, the Bible? Why are you hostile to the enterprise of divulging what these facts of human cognition are regarding the problems of existence and origin that reveal what God has proven to mankind about His existence?
By dumbassery I am referring to your childish behavior. And your conceited attitude. Not very Christ like.

Further I don't really care what you want to think the bible teaches. The nature of man is sin. Not everything comes from the bible. I am a Christian I worship Christ, not the bible. Christ asks of us to take a leap of faith, to ignore our fear and defy our nature. It is not in our nature to do this.

Further the bible cannot prove God exists or that he loves you. It's just a book. But it also is a map to those willing to put aside their arrogant tendencies. It holds no proof, it is up to the reader to take the leap. Once you have made that leap the bible is still inadequate. I came to my faith not by reading dusty old books. But through perils and spiritual turbulence. And the leap of faith.

That is why it is unshakeable. I also don't feel the need to condescend to people on the internet. I am not your damned son. I have a father and a mother, they are the best people I know, they call me son.
 
So we can add another poster who came here in earnest that these two charlatan scumbags couldn't refrain from ad homming like a couple of prissy teenagers.

How many does that make, now?

I lost track around ten.
"When the debate is lost slander becomes the weapon of the loser" - Socrates

I don't really take the name calling offensively, it's a sign that they have lost the argument.

Is the noise of popular culture stocking your ego? Listen to God instead.
Why preach to me? Just post your proof our admit you don't have any.

Actually, why preach to me? I just gave the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. Are you saying those things aren't true? Are you making an argument or just being rude? You asked me to provide information to you.

This is the first time I've talked you, but is this your pattern? You ask a question. I answer it with things you've never considered or thought about before. That's obvious! It looks like your mind's made up about things to which you obviously gave absolutely no serious consider.

It's your position that God has not proven His existence to mankind? Are you Christian? I see that there's a cross on your signature. If you don't believe me at this point then read the first chapter of Romans, beginning with verse 18. Then read the post on The Seven Things again . . . for reals. God is speaking to all of us all the time in our minds about Himself and His creation. That's a fact, not a sermon. You're saying you don't believe that? Your refusal to open you mind and seriously consider the things I've shared with you = there is no proof, or = an admission that there is no proof?

Really?

How's that?

How do you figured you've refuted something you haven't seriously considered at all? How do you figure you've refuted something when you haven't even dared to put anything into evidence regarding the things you imply to have refuted?

Hmm. The only reason I spoke to you in the first place is because Emily said you were an open-minded, thoughtful and tolerant person. Looks like she is wrong about you.
God asked me to take a leap of faith. That was extremely difficult for me. But if there is proof why would I need to take a leap of faith? What value would faith have if there was fact?

I came to my faith by asking these questions. And realizing nobody knew the answers beyond speculation.

All I have done is ask questions. If my questions make you feel like I am persecuting you, perhaps it's because I already know the answer as do you and you are attempting to give me falsehoods because it is something you would like to know.

I personally don't need proof, I don't need to see angles, I don't need to hear God speak. Frankly I don't really want to. Faith is good enough for me. I don't feel the need to call people phoney Christians frankly that isn't my place. If you ask me, I am Christian. Given things about who I am you probably wouldn't think that I am. So take it or leave it.

Back to the point, if you have proof that God exists please show it to the atheists. Or tell me so that I can deliver the message. Why wouldn't you?

Yes. I agree. We must all take the leap of faith. This thread is about the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin that reveal what God has proven to mankind about His existence so that men may come to believe in God with God's help. One must necessary choose to believe what God has revealed or not. God is speaking to all of us all the time, telling us that I AM!

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10150814/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10039574/

#6 of The Seven Things: I AM!

 
I AM!

See #6 of The Seven Things ™ that are objectively true for all regarding the problems of existence and origin due to the organic laws of human thought (the law of identity, the law of contradiction, the law of the excluded middle): http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10122836/.
_______________


You have moved a bit closer, Boss, to the objective world of human cognition as opposed to what you were initially advocating way earlier on this thread. In fact, right now, you are but one simple step away from a mind-blowing epiphany.

I still disagree with the expression that "objectivity is subjective". In other words, I know what you're getting at, but allow me to propose something else. Drop the violation of the second law of thought (the law of contradiction) and simply assert the only proper response to the foundation of wisdom: Faith!

That's the response I've been standing on all along via the incontrovertible laws of organic thought, which, ultimately, are, collectively, the universal Principle of Identity.

Stay with me, grab a seatbelt, buckle up for this ride.

As I've said before you are so close to what is true in terms of perfect logic, though you remain a bit off. I hear you, Boss. I always have. And you've been all around it, but not quite on it.

Don't take offense. It's got nothing’ to do with me. I'm nobody. The brilliance of the argument you alluded to is not mine. It took God years to get me on it. Years! For something right in front of me all along. That's how screwed up we are! But what's been really freakin' me out all along with you is that while I'm more learned than you on this stuff, I am not necessarily smarter than you. You're naturally onto to something profound that God had to hammer through my thick skull.

"No, no, Michael!"

"But, Lord . . ."

"You're still way off."

"But, Lord . . ."

"Hush and listen."

"Okay, Lord . . . Wait, wait, I see it. Whoa!"

"Pretty cool, eh?"

Boss, there's no reason for the violation of the second law of thought, all of which, ultimately, are moral in nature. Just let the laws of thought stand. Abide by them. Obey them. Make your thoughts and your expressions unanimously conform to them, as you can't escape the actuality of their revelations or sanctions, respectively, anyway. No one can or does.

(By the way, that's the foundational understanding about why and how absolute omniscience and actual free will coherently coexist. You're free to choose, but whatever choice you make, the outcome is known by God, because embracing the laws of thought is reward, disregarding them is disaster. The ultimate understanding of this dynamic, however, in terms of God's absolute knowledge about the unique details of each individual's choices, is revealed by simply embracing the objectively logical fact of number 4 of The Seven Things: the multidimensional simultaneity of infinity.)

Don't violate the laws of thought and what you're trying to get at becomes crystal clear.

Theorem
: humans are finite beings of faith who hold that objectivity is possible by faith. If something is objectively possible, it must be true. For in this instance, it is necessarily and axiomatically true as a matter of practicality and must, therefore, be true as a matter of ultimacy.

Stay with me.

This is a logical proof for the fact that faith is the means, though not the ground, by which we embrace absolutely certain knowledge. Ultimately belief and knowledge are one.

What is that logical proof for faith ultimately based on? Answer: reason. Who is the ultimate essence of that reason?

Each person has to decide that for themselves, but for those of us who personally know Who the answer for that question is, this is the order of things: God . . . logic . . . information . . . faith . . . true knowledge.

On the very face of it, it's not logically possible for either a finite mind or for a creature to think/state "God (Creator) doesn't exist." That thought or statement is logically self-negating. It's actually a thought/statement that God does exist!

Hence, "I AM!"

Now some are still conflating #2 with #1 (See http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10039225/), but apparently you've got it down.

1. And because I AM you may know that the apparent, every-day-walk-in-the-park distinctions you must necessarily make as a matter of practicality are concretely real!

2. The distinction between objectivity and subjectivity is concretely real!

3. The apparent world beyond the world of your mind is concretely real!

4. The apparent synchronization of the rational forms (dimensional, geometric, spatial) and logical categories (the propositional delineations of linguistic and mathematical apprehensions/expressions) with the properties and processes of the cosmological order is concretely real!

I AM the Ground of existence and the unifying Principle.

Do you believe, children, what I AM telling you or not about all these things, via that incontrovertible axiom of human cognition by which you cannot logically deny that I AM, whether you think this axiom holds up beyond the confines of your mind or not?

I AM Wisdom. I AM the Logos. I AM that first principle of wisdom that I put into your heads. I AM the foundation of the logic I put into your heads. I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life. To believe Me is to know with absolutely certainty that those things that are apparently true to all—axiomatically, objectively, logically—are concretely real!

Moreover, I AM infinitely perfect in attribution, just as the objectively applied logic I put in your heads tells you when you apply it to the construct of infinity that immediately follows the recognition that I AM the foundation of the universal principle of identity, which is bioneurologically hardwired in you.

I AM infinitely powerful. I AM infinitely all-knowing. I AM infinitely present. Hence, I AM absolutely perfect. I cannot and do not ever lie; I cannot not and will not ever make a mistake.

Do you believe that the axiomatic declaration of the I AM in your mind is My "voice"? Do you believe? Do you trust what I'm telling you?

God (Reason) . . . logic . . . information .. . faith . . . true knowledge.

But whether you believe Me or not, regardless of who or what you put in the place of the I AM in your heads as the actual foundation for it all—nature, forces, principles or divinity—the objectively and universally axiomatic facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin remain what they are in terms of the apparent distinction between things like objectivity and subjectively.
 
"When the debate is lost slander becomes the weapon of the loser" - Socrates

I don't really take the name calling offensively, it's a sign that they have lost the argument.

Is the noise of popular culture stocking your ego? Listen to God instead.
Why preach to me? Just post your proof our admit you don't have any.

Actually, why preach to me? I just gave the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. Are you saying those things aren't true? Are you making an argument or just being rude? You asked me to provide information to you.

This is the first time I've talked you, but is this your pattern? You ask a question. I answer it with things you've never considered or thought about before. That's obvious! It looks like your mind's made up about things to which you obviously gave absolutely no serious consider.

It's your position that God has not proven His existence to mankind? Are you Christian? I see that there's a cross on your signature. If you don't believe me at this point then read the first chapter of Romans, beginning with verse 18. Then read the post on The Seven Things again . . . for reals. God is speaking to all of us all the time in our minds about Himself and His creation. That's a fact, not a sermon. You're saying you don't believe that? Your refusal to open you mind and seriously consider the things I've shared with you = there is no proof, or = an admission that there is no proof?

Really?

How's that?

How do you figured you've refuted something you haven't seriously considered at all? How do you figure you've refuted something when you haven't even dared to put anything into evidence regarding the things you imply to have refuted?

Hmm. The only reason I spoke to you in the first place is because Emily said you were an open-minded, thoughtful and tolerant person. Looks like she is wrong about you.
God asked me to take a leap of faith. That was extremely difficult for me. But if there is proof why would I need to take a leap of faith? What value would faith have if there was fact?

I came to my faith by asking these questions. And realizing nobody knew the answers beyond speculation.

All I have done is ask questions. If my questions make you feel like I am persecuting you, perhaps it's because I already know the answer as do you and you are attempting to give me falsehoods because it is something you would like to know.

I personally don't need proof, I don't need to see angles, I don't need to hear God speak. Frankly I don't really want to. Faith is good enough for me. I don't feel the need to call people phoney Christians frankly that isn't my place. If you ask me, I am Christian. Given things about who I am you probably wouldn't think that I am. So take it or leave it.

Back to the point, if you have proof that God exists please show it to the atheists. Or tell me so that I can deliver the message. Why wouldn't you?

Yes. I agree. We must all take the leap of faith. This thread is about the objective facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin that reveal what God has proven to mankind about His existence so that men may come to believe in God with God's help. One must necessary choose to believe what God has revealed or not. God is speaking to all of us all the time, telling us that I AM!

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10150814/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/10039574/

#6 of The Seven Things: I AM!
Thank you, one must choose to believe. I know that already and I have repeatedly said that. If it was a fact believe would be irrelevant as would faith.

So than there is no proof.
 

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