Is There Such A Thing As "Right" And "Wrong?"

[Wry Catcher]

Questions for Atheists, Christians, or anyone interested:

Do you believe in the concept of right and wrong? Is there some ethical code that defines what right and wrong is? If there is no Author of moral or ethical concepts then who gets to decide where the line is drawn?



Problems for Atheists

Explain the moral code of these true believers: Terrorists, Middle-age Crusaders, Inquisitors, Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell, who said:

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharaoh's charioteers ... AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."

I believe those who defy the law of gravity from a high bridge or tower are wrong.

Your AIDS riff is pure ignorance.
The vast majority of victims of the disease worldwide are heterosexual.
You can look it up.

The quote was from the late Jerry Falwell as a bit of evidence that 'true' believers in GOD (we don't know what is in their heart) embrace moral/ethical relevancy. Isn't an appeal to God, an obvious logical fallacy?

Your personal attack, "pure ignorance" is noted for what it's worth.

 

[Unkotare]

Do you believe in the concept of right and wrong?

Of course there is, and everyone knows it.

 

[pacer]

Erase. Off topic.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You applaud this poster who denigrates all good service a man might do for others if it doesn't start from god.
I find that terribly sad.
The red part of your post is precisely the need that Christians respond to.
If the Rockefellers (or more to the point, Carnegie) did this wonderful service to their fellow man and the poster wants to denigrate them, hasn't he sold his sense of right and wrong to stay a member of his club in good standing? Is standing against the societal norm that Carnegie did a colossal amount of good with his fortune and that is still good in spite of his atheism something to preen over?
This is the slavery to absolutes that make men evil in spite of their good intentions.

Two things. I applaud her because of her honest opinions and because she posted without denigrating others.

I also happen to agree with her from a Christian point of view.

I don't think that she (nor I) look down on anyone who does "good" from a secular standpoint. I love when one person does something nice for someone else. That's in line with Christ's second great commandment. I'm not free to judge the heart and soul of another man. I believe that duty lands in the hands of Someone greater than I.

I applaud good works done by any human being. Any act of kindness, giving to another, saving a life, defending a defenseless person, giving a kind word is a wonderful thing and I am sure God takes notice of those who do.

I've noticed those who are not believers but not openly hateful towards Christians are the same people I'll learn later on - did many good works in their life - and God was watching all along - I believe - they are being saved - they are even now being saved and because of this judgment on America and the world has been delayed even until now.

Many people do good things because they desire the connection they get with doing good! It is a postive feeling for a person to do something good for another human being and many agnostics and atheists are onto that truth - the problem - as I pointed out earlier is that we are not saved by our works alone. If an individual rejects Christ there is no reward for the good works done on earth. The bible says those works are burnt up.

I noticed Bruce misquoted me on this and felt I needed to address it. Thanks for reading. - Jeremiah

"What about the atheist whose life is exemplary in every way? Gave to charities, did good works in 3rd world countries, gave huge donations - such as the Rockafellers have done perhaps?..... The very mention of their names - people reply - such a good family! Does God recognize any good work, any moral effort apart from Christ, any good word or deed done apart from Christ as anything more than something to be burnt up on judgment day? Not according to Him He doesn't. I will take Him at His Word because to do otherwise is simply irrational."

Here's the direct quote.
Do you still want to cry "foul"?
Why would you "applaud" what god would burn?

 

[pacer]

Pope Francis:

(Vatican Radio) “Doing good” is a principle that unites all humanity, beyond the diversity of ideologies and religions, and creates the “culture of encounter” that is the foundation of peace.”

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Text from page Pope at Mass: Culture of encounter is the foundation of peace of the Vatican Radio website

 

[DriftingSand]

Your AIDS riff is pure ignorance.
The vast majority of victims of the disease worldwide are heterosexual.
You can look it up.

The vast majority of the world's population is heterosexual so it goes without saying heterosexuals will make up the larger proportion of AIDS cases.

So if it was god's vengence on gays, it was a terrible error in execution.

If we're going to "go there" then I might suggest that God's vengeance could be upon the homosexual community as well as the heterosexuals that defend it. I'm not suggesting that I actually believe that but I'm offering a counter argument to your post. When fire and brimstone pounded down upon Sodom and Gomorrah it was a wrathful punishment for the debauchery taking place at that time. However, Lot's wife (who was not a participant in said debauchery) was punished for "looking back" at the home she was leaving behind. God saw that as a tacit defense of the city she was leaving.

 

[DriftingSand]

Pope Francis:

(Vatican Radio) “Doing good” is a principle that unites all humanity, beyond the diversity of ideologies and religions, and creates the “culture of encounter” that is the foundation of peace.”

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Text from page Pope at Mass: Culture of encounter is the foundation of peace of the Vatican Radio website

Although I would never criticize anyone for suggesting that people do good I must disagree with the Pope on the issue of "ultimate reconciliation." Christ did die for all of mankind but not all of mankind will be rewarded in the Kingdom of God. The Pope knows the Scripture and should make it clear what it actually says concerning salvation and the only Door that leads to it. See John 3:18

 

[pacer]

The vast majority of the world's population is heterosexual so it goes without saying heterosexuals will make up the larger proportion of AIDS cases.

So if it was god's vengence on gays, it was a terrible error in execution.

If we're going to "go there" then I might suggest that God's vengeance could be upon the homosexual community as well as the heterosexuals that defend it. I'm not suggesting that I actually believe that but I'm offering a counter argument to your post.

Another argument could be that God's vengeance is upon heterosexuals who themself engage in homosexual behaviour.

 

[thebrucebeat]

The vast majority of the world's population is heterosexual so it goes without saying heterosexuals will make up the larger proportion of AIDS cases.

So if it was god's vengence on gays, it was a terrible error in execution.

If we're going to "go there" then I might suggest that God's vengeance could be upon the homosexual community as well as the heterosexuals that defend it. I'm not suggesting that I actually believe that but I'm offering a counter argument to your post. When fire and brimstone pounded down upon Sodom and Gomorrah it was a wrathful punishment for the debauchery taking place at that time. However, Lot's wife (who was not a participant in said debauchery) was punished for "looking back" at the home she was leaving behind. God saw that as a tacit defense of the city she was leaving.

There aren't many heterosexuals defending homosexuality in Africa where the greatest percentage of heterosexual deaths from AIDS are occurring.
So you can go with that if you like, but the evidence to support it will be very hard to come by.

 

[thebrucebeat]

So if it was god's vengence on gays, it was a terrible error in execution.

If we're going to "go there" then I might suggest that God's vengeance could be upon the homosexual community as well as the heterosexuals that defend it. I'm not suggesting that I actually believe that but I'm offering a counter argument to your post.

Another argument could be that God's vengeance is upon heterosexuals who themself engage in homosexual behaviour.

Possible. That certainly happens.
Do you think that rises to pandemic proportions, though?
Really?
Most hetero AIDS cases are connected to a mysoginistic attitude toward women. The male head of household takes part in illicit sex outside of marriage, frequently prostitution, and passes the disease on to the wife. There is a religious component to this, where the men feel an entitlement to this and an educational component where safe sex and how the disease is passed on is not well understood.

 

[pacer]

Pope Francis:

(Vatican Radio) “Doing good” is a principle that unites all humanity, beyond the diversity of ideologies and religions, and creates the “culture of encounter” that is the foundation of peace.”

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Text from page Pope at Mass: Culture of encounter is the foundation of peace of the Vatican Radio website

Although I would never criticize anyone for suggesting that people do good I must disagree with the Pope on the issue of "ultimate reconciliation." Christ did die for all of mankind but not all of mankind will be rewarded in the Kingdom of God. The Pope knows the Scripture and should make it clear what it actually says concerning salvation and the only Door that leads to it. See John 3:18

The Scripture is metaphorical. The Pope made it clear that we all meet at the point at which we do good deeds. It is the good deeds that unite us.

"But do good: we will meet one another there."

 

[DriftingSand]

So if it was god's vengence on gays, it was a terrible error in execution.

If we're going to "go there" then I might suggest that God's vengeance could be upon the homosexual community as well as the heterosexuals that defend it. I'm not suggesting that I actually believe that but I'm offering a counter argument to your post.

Another argument could be that God's vengeance is upon heterosexuals who themself engage in homosexual behaviour.

Possibly. I do believe that America is being judged for her general rejection of God and Jesus Christ. We're certainly declining as a nation. As we reject the idea of right, wrong, and the rule of law in favor of situational ethics, secularism, and materialism we're sure to see more pain and suffering on a national level. If biblical prophecy is accurate then we will ultimately see a major, global "shakeup."

Matthew 13:38-43, "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

I would hate to be a "tare" when this passage comes to fruition.

 

[pacer]

If we're going to "go there" then I might suggest that God's vengeance could be upon the homosexual community as well as the heterosexuals that defend it. I'm not suggesting that I actually believe that but I'm offering a counter argument to your post.

Another argument could be that God's vengeance is upon heterosexuals who themself engage in homosexual behaviour.

Possible. That certainly happens.
Do you think that rises to pandemic proportions, though?
Really?

Yes. I believe most heterosexual couples have done it. When does god take out his vengeance?

 

[Wry Catcher]

So if it was god's vengence on gays, it was a terrible error in execution.

If we're going to "go there" then I might suggest that God's vengeance could be upon the homosexual community as well as the heterosexuals that defend it. I'm not suggesting that I actually believe that but I'm offering a counter argument to your post.

Another argument could be that God's vengeance is upon heterosexuals who themself engage in homosexual behaviour.

Seven Deadly Sins:

In almost every list, pride or hubris is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins; they are considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins. In perhaps the best-known example, the story of Lucifer, pride (his desire to compete with God) was what caused his fall from Heaven, and his resultant transformation into Satan.

Careful Pacer, your argument that God seeks vengeance is prideful. For a true believer as you pretend to be, you're rather ignorant.

 

[Chuckt]

Two things. I applaud her because of her honest opinions and because she posted without denigrating others.

I also happen to agree with her from a Christian point of view.

I don't think that she (nor I) look down on anyone who does "good" from a secular standpoint. I love when one person does something nice for someone else. That's in line with Christ's second great commandment. I'm not free to judge the heart and soul of another man. I believe that duty lands in the hands of Someone greater than I.

I applaud good works done by any human being. Any act of kindness, giving to another, saving a life, defending a defenseless person, giving a kind word is a wonderful thing and I am sure God takes notice of those who do.

I've noticed those who are not believers but not openly hateful towards Christians are the same people I'll learn later on - did many good works in their life - and God was watching all along - I believe - they are being saved - they are even now being saved and because of this judgment on America and the world has been delayed even until now.

Many people do good things because they desire the connection they get with doing good! It is a postive feeling for a person to do something good for another human being and many agnostics and atheists are onto that truth - the problem - as I pointed out earlier is that we are not saved by our works alone. If an individual rejects Christ there is no reward for the good works done on earth. The bible says those works are burnt up.

I noticed Bruce misquoted me on this and felt I needed to address it. Thanks for reading. - Jeremiah

"What about the atheist whose life is exemplary in every way? Gave to charities, did good works in 3rd world countries, gave huge donations - such as the Rockafellers have done perhaps?..... The very mention of their names - people reply - such a good family! Does God recognize any good work, any moral effort apart from Christ, any good word or deed done apart from Christ as anything more than something to be burnt up on judgment day? Not according to Him He doesn't. I will take Him at His Word because to do otherwise is simply irrational."

Here's the direct quote.
Do you still want to cry "foul"?
Why would you "applaud" what god would burn?

How would John know who the small and great were if they weren't recognized by God?

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

They are judged according to their works which means they are recognized.

 

[pacer]

Careful Pacer, your argument that God seeks vengeance is prideful. For a true believer as you pretend to be, you're rather ignorant.

I'm not a believer nor do I pretend to be. You need to read the posts a little more carefully. But, if my argument that God (if he exists) seeks vengeance is prideful, there are plenty of very prideful, self-righteous Christians on this board who set themself up as judges of others.

“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.” (Albert Einstein)

 

[DriftingSand]

So if it was god's vengence on gays, it was a terrible error in execution.

If we're going to "go there" then I might suggest that God's vengeance could be upon the homosexual community as well as the heterosexuals that defend it. I'm not suggesting that I actually believe that but I'm offering a counter argument to your post. When fire and brimstone pounded down upon Sodom and Gomorrah it was a wrathful punishment for the debauchery taking place at that time. However, Lot's wife (who was not a participant in said debauchery) was punished for "looking back" at the home she was leaving behind. God saw that as a tacit defense of the city she was leaving.

There aren't many heterosexuals defending homosexuality in Africa where the greatest percentage of heterosexual deaths from AIDS are occurring.
So you can go with that if you like, but the evidence to support it will be very hard to come by.

Well ... I wasn't really seeking to discuss God's wrath in this thread but it's hard to keep everyone corralled into discussing the issue at hand (including myself).

I don't necessarily believe that AIDS is God's "answer" to homosexuality. I don't believe that God is happy about the homosexual lifestyle but I don't believe that He's happy about sexual promiscuity in any of it's several forms either so if AIDS is a punishment meted out by God then it could very well apply to anyone committing sexual sin in any of its diverse forms.

 

[thebrucebeat]

If we're going to "go there" then I might suggest that God's vengeance could be upon the homosexual community as well as the heterosexuals that defend it. I'm not suggesting that I actually believe that but I'm offering a counter argument to your post. When fire and brimstone pounded down upon Sodom and Gomorrah it was a wrathful punishment for the debauchery taking place at that time. However, Lot's wife (who was not a participant in said debauchery) was punished for "looking back" at the home she was leaving behind. God saw that as a tacit defense of the city she was leaving.

There aren't many heterosexuals defending homosexuality in Africa where the greatest percentage of heterosexual deaths from AIDS are occurring.
So you can go with that if you like, but the evidence to support it will be very hard to come by.

Well ... I wasn't really seeking to discuss God's wrath in this thread but it's hard to keep everyone corralled into discussing the issue at hand (including myself).

I don't necessarily believe that AIDS is God's "answer" to homosexuality. I don't believe that God is happy about the homosexual lifestyle but I don't believe that He's happy about sexual promiscuity in any of it's several forms either so if AIDS is a punishment meted out by God then it could very well apply to anyone committing sexual sin in any of its diverse forms.

Or maybe it's a disease.

 

[pacer]

Or maybe it's a disease.

Exactly. God is a man-made concept. Man created disease.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Or maybe it's a disease.

Exactly. God is a man-made concept. Man created disease.

Not sure how this follows.