Is there such thing as "universal morality"?

[ding]

I don't know how the universe was created so I can't say it was from nothing.

Matter and energy are changing. It cannot stay the same. By inspection it must have a beginning. A beginning that does not violate conservation.

Therefore, matter and energy cannot be eternal without reaching thermal equilibrium. Therefore, the source of existence must be of something not material.

Our universe had a beginning but that doesn't mean it came from nothing. This is a God-of-the-gaps argument: we don't know what came beforfe the big bang so it must have been God.

It’s not a god of gaps argument. It’s a Thermodynamic argument.

It isn’t possible for matter and energy to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium.

So what existed before space and time must have been no thing.

 

[alang1216]

So because virtuous people were killed by Hitler you refuse to believe that people who behave with virtue will have order and harmony?

Didn’t Hitler and Stalin prove that people who don’t behave with virtue prove their societies lived with disorder?

I'm certainly not going to take your word for something when history tells me the opposite.

Hitler killed millions and died by violence. Stalin killed millions and died of natural causes. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here.

Germany started WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Poland was a victim of WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here either.

 

[Taz]

I bet a lot of them end up offing themselves.

Why do you believe God allows homosexual couples to do that?

Again, that's not proof, that's just your say so.

God is just messing with your head.

But why do you think God would create homosexuals?

And allow them to fuck up little kids?

Like I said before, show me that this is actually happening outside of your tiny, pointed skull.

Why do you think homosexuals hide their homesexuality?

And why would they make little children suffer like that? Why does God allow that?

Dear ding and Taz
I keep seeing this same thing posted over and over here without getting answered.
My understanding is that generational karma/sins/curses are passed down
when transgressions or abuses from ONE generation aren't
forgiven/resolved/healed. So they repeat until they are forgiven and healed.

Whatever ding is referring to, the issues and conflicts surrounding
homosexuality have accumulated and finally are being brought out
in public discussion to be resolved.

The key issue I believe this is forcing into public attention
is SPIRITUAL HEALING which is based on FORGIVENESS.

So the "REASON" these issues of child abuse, sex abuse, homosexual
and transgender orientation/identity keep repeating and don't go away
but seem to grow more and more openly public, is that the human
conscience or process toward justice is seeking CORRECTION and HEALING.

That's my understanding of why
"God" allows this to keep happening.
If we don't forgive and receive correction and healing
the problems and patterns repeat.

The more we learn how forgiveness ALLOWS healing
to BREAK this cycle of abuse and conflicts over behavior,
then we can FULLY heal and prevent abuses from recurring.

NOTE: In Christian terms, the sacrifice of Christ represents
this redemption process that allows the past injustices to be
corrected and relations to be healed for lasting justice and peace.

In SECULAR terms, as I have tried to explain in threads with
RWS and BreezeWood the process is to establish RESTORATIVE JUSTICE
through universal truth and bring peace to relations and humanity.

Both RWS and BreezeWood object to religions such as Christianity
based on abusive or "forged/false" Biblical ideology as causing more
problems including "killing".

What I understand is the common message/law/process is that
FORGIVENESS is the mechanism in the human conscience that
opens the door to RECEIVE CORRECTION so these evils can be stopped,
addressed and prevented. Whatever is CAUSING the cycle to repeat,
the point of FORGIVENESS is to break free from that oppression.

Anything less than FORGIVENESS allows the patterns to keep repeating.

Your posts are always too long.

 

[alang1216]

I can run experiments that reveal quantum mechanics and relativity. Are there any experiments that reveal spirituality or the supernatural?

Actually you can’t.

But you can know if f you experience spirituality.

Are you saying you have never experienced spirituality?

You can't 'know' if you experience spirituality, you can only believe you have.

If by spirituality you mean the supernatural, the answer is no, I have never experienced spirituality.

 

[alang1216]

It’s not a god of gaps argument. It’s a Thermodynamic argument.

It isn’t possible for matter and energy to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium.

So what existed before space and time must have been no thing.

This would only be true in a closed system. Is the universe closed or open? How do you know?

 

[ding]

So because virtuous people were killed by Hitler you refuse to believe that people who behave with virtue will have order and harmony?

Didn’t Hitler and Stalin prove that people who don’t behave with virtue prove their societies lived with disorder?

I'm certainly not going to take your word for something when history tells me the opposite.

Hitler killed millions and died by violence. Stalin killed millions and died of natural causes. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here.

Germany started WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Poland was a victim of WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here either.

Maybe you will take Plato’s word or Socrates word or Confucius’s word.

Of course you could always test it for yourself and not need to take anyone’s word.

 

[ding]

It’s not a god of gaps argument. It’s a Thermodynamic argument.

It isn’t possible for matter and energy to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium.

So what existed before space and time must have been no thing.

This would only be true in a closed system. Is the universe closed or open? How do you know?

Closed/isolated.

Same difference. Look it up. Don’t take my word.

 

[ding]

I can run experiments that reveal quantum mechanics and relativity. Are there any experiments that reveal spirituality or the supernatural?

Actually you can’t.

But you can know if f you experience spirituality.

Are you saying you have never experienced spirituality?

You can't 'know' if you experience spirituality, you can only believe you have.

If by spirituality you mean the supernatural, the answer is no, I have never experienced spirituality.

Really? Sounds like you can’t know anything?

 

[Third Party]

...morality, by definition, is the code of behaviour of an individual, not a community.

So it would be erroneous to describe a community as acting "immoral" for, as an example, building a wall or legalizing abortion? The correct word would be "unethical"?

Wow, I favor both-would that make me a Republicrat or Demolican? And would that be immoral or unethical? Or maybe just sick? Or maybe enlightened?

 

[alang1216]

So because virtuous people were killed by Hitler you refuse to believe that people who behave with virtue will have order and harmony?

Didn’t Hitler and Stalin prove that people who don’t behave with virtue prove their societies lived with disorder?

I'm certainly not going to take your word for something when history tells me the opposite.

Hitler killed millions and died by violence. Stalin killed millions and died of natural causes. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here.

Germany started WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Poland was a victim of WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here either.

Maybe you will take Plato’s word or Socrates word or Confucius’s word.

Of course you could always test it for yourself and not need to take anyone’s word.

Brilliant folk yes but none of those people could explain why it rained or had any link to the God of the Bible.

Intriguing, how do I test it for yourself without first accepting it as true? That would be a test of faith, not of truth.

 

[alang1216]

You can't 'know' if you experience spirituality, you can only believe you have.

If by spirituality you mean the supernatural, the answer is no, I have never experienced spirituality.

Really? Sounds like you can’t know anything?

You can learn plenty so long as you maintain a healthy skepticism. Once you KNOW the truth, further learning ceases.

 

[alang1216]

This would only be true in a closed system. Is the universe closed or open? How do you know?

Closed/isolated.

Same difference. Look it up. Don’t take my word.

Our universe may or may not be closed (we don't know what Dark Energy is) and we don't even know if this universe is not one of an infinite number of universes.

 

[ding]

So because virtuous people were killed by Hitler you refuse to believe that people who behave with virtue will have order and harmony?

Didn’t Hitler and Stalin prove that people who don’t behave with virtue prove their societies lived with disorder?

I'm certainly not going to take your word for something when history tells me the opposite.

Hitler killed millions and died by violence. Stalin killed millions and died of natural causes. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here.

Germany started WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Poland was a victim of WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here either.

Maybe you will take Plato’s word or Socrates word or Confucius’s word.

Of course you could always test it for yourself and not need to take anyone’s word.

Brilliant folk yes but none of those people could explain why it rained or had any link to the God of the Bible.

Intriguing, how do I test it for yourself without first accepting it as true? That would be a test of faith, not of truth.

Let’s debate it in the bull ring. You can argue that virtue does not lead to harmony and order and I can argue it does. Fair enough?

 

[ding]

This would only be true in a closed system. Is the universe closed or open? How do you know?

Closed/isolated.

Same difference. Look it up. Don’t take my word.

Our universe may or may not be closed (we don't know what Dark Energy is) and we don't even know if this universe is not one of an infinite number of universes.

Why does dark energy matter?

Why can’t you know this from the Big Bang?

 

[ding]

This would only be true in a closed system. Is the universe closed or open? How do you know?

Closed/isolated.

Same difference. Look it up. Don’t take my word.

Our universe may or may not be closed (we don't know what Dark Energy is) and we don't even know if this universe is not one of an infinite number of universes.

It doesn’t matter if there are multiple universes. In fact the theory of multiverses are based upon closed/isolated systems. The theory literally requires a closed universe.

 

[ding]

You can't 'know' if you experience spirituality, you can only believe you have.

If by spirituality you mean the supernatural, the answer is no, I have never experienced spirituality.

Really? Sounds like you can’t know anything?

You can learn plenty so long as you maintain a healthy skepticism. Once you KNOW the truth, further learning ceases.

Untrue. It’s a ladder. We ascend it one rung at a time.

 

[alang1216]

So because virtuous people were killed by Hitler you refuse to believe that people who behave with virtue will have order and harmony?

Didn’t Hitler and Stalin prove that people who don’t behave with virtue prove their societies lived with disorder?

I'm certainly not going to take your word for something when history tells me the opposite.

Hitler killed millions and died by violence. Stalin killed millions and died of natural causes. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here.

Germany started WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Poland was a victim of WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here either.

Maybe you will take Plato’s word or Socrates word or Confucius’s word.

Of course you could always test it for yourself and not need to take anyone’s word.

Brilliant folk yes but none of those people could explain why it rained or had any link to the God of the Bible.

Intriguing, how do I test it for yourself without first accepting it as true? That would be a test of faith, not of truth.

Let’s debate it in the bull ring. You can argue that virtue does not lead to harmony and order and I can argue it does. Fair enough?

I'm not adverse but I've done the bull ring so you'll have to take the lead.

 

[alang1216]

This would only be true in a closed system. Is the universe closed or open? How do you know?

Closed/isolated.

Same difference. Look it up. Don’t take my word.

Our universe may or may not be closed (we don't know what Dark Energy is) and we don't even know if this universe is not one of an infinite number of universes.

Why does dark energy matter?

Why can’t you know this from the Big Bang?

Where does dark energy come from? Inside or outside this universe? If outside the universe is obviously not closed.

 

[ding]

So because virtuous people were killed by Hitler you refuse to believe that people who behave with virtue will have order and harmony?

Didn’t Hitler and Stalin prove that people who don’t behave with virtue prove their societies lived with disorder?

I'm certainly not going to take your word for something when history tells me the opposite.

Hitler killed millions and died by violence. Stalin killed millions and died of natural causes. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here.

Germany started WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Poland was a victim of WWII and ended up reduced to rubble. Doesn't seem to any conneciton here either.

Maybe you will take Plato’s word or Socrates word or Confucius’s word.

Of course you could always test it for yourself and not need to take anyone’s word.

Brilliant folk yes but none of those people could explain why it rained or had any link to the God of the Bible.

Intriguing, how do I test it for yourself without first accepting it as true? That would be a test of faith, not of truth.

Let’s debate it in the bull ring. You can argue that virtue does not lead to harmony and order and I can argue it does. Fair enough?

I'm not adverse but I've done the bull ring so you'll have to take the lead.

I will make my argument why I believe it does. You can make your argument why you believe it doesn’t. Then I will rebut your argument and you can rebut mine. Fair enough?

 

[ding]

This would only be true in a closed system. Is the universe closed or open? How do you know?

Closed/isolated.

Same difference. Look it up. Don’t take my word.

Our universe may or may not be closed (we don't know what Dark Energy is) and we don't even know if this universe is not one of an infinite number of universes.

Why does dark energy matter?

Why can’t you know this from the Big Bang?

Where does dark energy come from? Inside or outside this universe? If outside the universe is obviously not closed.

Inside. Why do you believe it exists outside of the universe?