Isaiah 53, the forbidden chapter of the Hebrew Bible

[surada]

I'm neither a Hebrew nor Greek scholar.

You don't read the language of your Bible, but you claim to know it?

And you may claim to know the language of your Bible, but you likely don't read it --- at least not take it at simple face value.

if you take a translation of any book, especially a scriptural writing "at face value", little nip---you is STOOOOPID. Theoretically I COULD learn Sanskrit----but if I decided to take the idea of an army of FLYING monkeys at "face
value" I would be a shallow minded idiot. .
Getting back to "face value" I have never met an "enthusiastic" christian willing to even attempt to understand the New Testament

Well, I will introduce you some. Yet I presume that you wont like it... Home

too late----I read your idiot propaganda YEARS AGO (pre-internet). I also read both the New Testament and the "old testament" ---in my teen years. FYI I have no "Jewish Education" as a child. I had MORE christian education as a child because a friendly neighbor (lutheran) took me to Sunday school many times to accompany her daughter.
But I was also an avid READER as a kid and came to understand that the sunday school teacher was a jerk

Not all Sunday School teachers are "jerks", and not all "Christians" are Fundamentalists nor born-again for that matter. You should attempt to study the Bible once more, now that you are more mature.

All the servant verses in Isaiah are referring to the Jewish People collectively. .. over and over again.

 

[irosie91]

I'm neither a Hebrew nor Greek scholar.

You don't read the language of your Bible, but you claim to know it?

And you may claim to know the language of your Bible, but you likely don't read it --- at least not take it at simple face value.

if you take a translation of any book, especially a scriptural writing "at face value", little nip---you is STOOOOPID. Theoretically I COULD learn Sanskrit----but if I decided to take the idea of an army of FLYING monkeys at "face
value" I would be a shallow minded idiot. .
Getting back to "face value" I have never met an "enthusiastic" christian willing to even attempt to understand the New Testament

Well, I will introduce you some. Yet I presume that you wont like it... Home

too late----I read your idiot propaganda YEARS AGO (pre-internet). I also read both the New Testament and the "old testament" ---in my teen years. FYI I have no "Jewish Education" as a child. I had MORE christian education as a child because a friendly neighbor (lutheran) took me to Sunday school many times to accompany her daughter.
But I was also an avid READER as a kid and came to understand that the sunday school teacher was a jerk

Not all Sunday School teachers are "jerks", and not all "Christians" are Fundamentalists nor born-again for that matter. You should attempt to study the Bible once more, now that you are more mature.

All the servant verses in Isaiah are referring to the Jewish People collectively. .. over and over again.

the nip is confused enough----don't over tax his peanut
brain with hebrew idiom

 

[surada]

I'm neither a Hebrew nor Greek scholar.

You don't read the language of your Bible, but you claim to know it?

And you may claim to know the language of your Bible, but you likely don't read it --- at least not take it at simple face value.

if you take a translation of any book, especially a scriptural writing "at face value", little nip---you is STOOOOPID. Theoretically I COULD learn Sanskrit----but if I decided to take the idea of an army of FLYING monkeys at "face
value" I would be a shallow minded idiot. .
Getting back to "face value" I have never met an "enthusiastic" christian willing to even attempt to understand the New Testament

Well, I will introduce you some. Yet I presume that you wont like it... Home

too late----I read your idiot propaganda YEARS AGO (pre-internet). I also read both the New Testament and the "old testament" ---in my teen years. FYI I have no "Jewish Education" as a child. I had MORE christian education as a child because a friendly neighbor (lutheran) took me to Sunday school many times to accompany her daughter.
But I was also an avid READER as a kid and came to understand that the sunday school teacher was a jerk

Not all Sunday School teachers are "jerks", and not all "Christians" are Fundamentalists nor born-again for that matter. You should attempt to study the Bible once more, now that you are more mature.

All the servant verses in Isaiah are referring to the Jewish People collectively. .. over and over again.

the nip is confused enough----don't over tax is peanut
brain with hebrew idiom

Well, to be honest.. Isaiah goes on and on about my servant Israel and then suddenly changes horses and it talking about Jesus? That's irrational even with the most poetic stretch. Christians shouldn't fiddle with scripture.

 

[irosie91]

I'm neither a Hebrew nor Greek scholar.

You don't read the language of your Bible, but you claim to know it?

And you may claim to know the language of your Bible, but you likely don't read it --- at least not take it at simple face value.

if you take a translation of any book, especially a scriptural writing "at face value", little nip---you is STOOOOPID. Theoretically I COULD learn Sanskrit----but if I decided to take the idea of an army of FLYING monkeys at "face
value" I would be a shallow minded idiot. .
Getting back to "face value" I have never met an "enthusiastic" christian willing to even attempt to understand the New Testament

Well, I will introduce you some. Yet I presume that you wont like it... Home

too late----I read your idiot propaganda YEARS AGO (pre-internet). I also read both the New Testament and the "old testament" ---in my teen years. FYI I have no "Jewish Education" as a child. I had MORE christian education as a child because a friendly neighbor (lutheran) took me to Sunday school many times to accompany her daughter.
But I was also an avid READER as a kid and came to understand that the sunday school teacher was a jerk

Not all Sunday School teachers are "jerks", and not all "Christians" are Fundamentalists nor born-again for that matter. You should attempt to study the Bible once more, now that you are more mature.

All the servant verses in Isaiah are referring to the Jewish People collectively. .. over and over again.

the nip is confused enough----don't over tax is peanut
brain with hebrew idiom

Well, to be honest.. Isaiah goes on and on about my servant Israel and then suddenly changes horses and it talking about Jesus? That's irrational even with the most poetic stretch. Christians shouldn't fiddle with scripture.

Isaiah never talks about Jesus----

 

[surada]

I'm neither a Hebrew nor Greek scholar.

You don't read the language of your Bible, but you claim to know it?

And you may claim to know the language of your Bible, but you likely don't read it --- at least not take it at simple face value.

if you take a translation of any book, especially a scriptural writing "at face value", little nip---you is STOOOOPID. Theoretically I COULD learn Sanskrit----but if I decided to take the idea of an army of FLYING monkeys at "face
value" I would be a shallow minded idiot. .
Getting back to "face value" I have never met an "enthusiastic" christian willing to even attempt to understand the New Testament

Well, I will introduce you some. Yet I presume that you wont like it... Home

too late----I read your idiot propaganda YEARS AGO (pre-internet). I also read both the New Testament and the "old testament" ---in my teen years. FYI I have no "Jewish Education" as a child. I had MORE christian education as a child because a friendly neighbor (lutheran) took me to Sunday school many times to accompany her daughter.
But I was also an avid READER as a kid and came to understand that the sunday school teacher was a jerk

Not all Sunday School teachers are "jerks", and not all "Christians" are Fundamentalists nor born-again for that matter. You should attempt to study the Bible once more, now that you are more mature.

All the servant verses in Isaiah are referring to the Jewish People collectively. .. over and over again.

the nip is confused enough----don't over tax is peanut
brain with hebrew idiom

Well, to be honest.. Isaiah goes on and on about my servant Israel and then suddenly changes horses and it talking about Jesus? That's irrational even with the most poetic stretch. Christians shouldn't fiddle with scripture.

Isaiah never talks about Jesus----

That's what I have been saying.

 

[buttercup]

Isaiah 53 is not about the people of Israel, it is absolutely Messianic.

What some here may not be aware of is that there are many ancient Jewish sources that understood Isaiah 53 as Messianic. That point seems to be ignored by modern-day rabbis or others who reject Isaiah 53 as Messianic.

Also, Isaiah 53 describes a servant who is innocent, who suffered guiltlessly.

"although he had done no violence,​

and there was no deceit in his mouth."​

Do you guys honestly believe that the people of Israel were guiltless and innocent? NO PEOPLE are guiltless, except for babies. The people of Israel certainly were not guiltless. The bible itself makes that clear repeatedly, in numerous places.

Isaiah himself talks about that, in Isaiah 1.

Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
for the Lord has spoken:
“Children have I reared and brought up,
but they have rebelled against me.
The ox knows its owner,
and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

Ah, sinful nation,
a people laden with iniquity,
offspring of evildoers,
children who deal corruptly!
They have forsaken the Lord,
they have despised the Holy One of Israel,
they are utterly estranged.​

That and many more passages like that are clearly nothing remotely like Isaiah 53, which describes a person (singular, not plural) who is innocent, and who took on the iniquities of all of us.

But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.​

When you read Isaiah 53, it makes no sense at all to interpret it to be the people of Israel. It just doesn't fit, not even close.

And within that chapter, there are numerous prophetic scriptures that describe Jesus to a tee.

It seems that one of the reasons why many Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah is because they were expecting a conquering king. But the scriptures are clear that the Messiah will come first as the "suffering servant" and LATER, ultimately, as the conquering king. Without understanding that, it's no wonder that many rejected Jesus.

 

[fncceo]

Isaiah 53 is not about the people of Israel, it is absolutely Messianic.

Thank you, Rabbi. I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education qualify you to make such a statement based on your reading on an English translation.

You can interpret it any way you like. I'll take my advice from someone grounded in Torah education with the actual ability to read and understand Hebrew, the language in which Torah was written.

 

[irosie91]

Isaiah 53 is not about the people of Israel, it is absolutely Messianic.

Thank you, Rabbi. I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education qualify you to make such a statement based on your reading on an English translation.

You can interpret it any way you like. I'll take my advice from someone grounded in Torah education with the actual ability to read and understand Hebrew, the language in which Torah was written.

give up ----it's hopeless.-----HOWEVER there is no
question that Isaiah does made reference to the MESSIANIC ERA (uhm...something like 'the days after') ---which is why it so confuses Buttercup. The "king" in the Messianic era is just that------a pacifist king.

 

[LittleNipper]

I'm neither a Hebrew nor Greek scholar.

You don't read the language of your Bible, but you claim to know it?

And you may claim to know the language of your Bible, but you likely don't read it --- at least not take it at simple face value.

if you take a translation of any book, especially a scriptural writing "at face value", little nip---you is STOOOOPID. Theoretically I COULD learn Sanskrit----but if I decided to take the idea of an army of FLYING monkeys at "face
value" I would be a shallow minded idiot. .
Getting back to "face value" I have never met an "enthusiastic" christian willing to even attempt to understand the New Testament

Well, I will introduce you some. Yet I presume that you wont like it... Home

too late----I read your idiot propaganda YEARS AGO (pre-internet). I also read both the New Testament and the "old testament" ---in my teen years. FYI I have no "Jewish Education" as a child. I had MORE christian education as a child because a friendly neighbor (lutheran) took me to Sunday school many times to accompany her daughter.
But I was also an avid READER as a kid and came to understand that the sunday school teacher was a jerk

Not all Sunday School teachers are "jerks", and not all "Christians" are Fundamentalists nor born-again for that matter. You should attempt to study the Bible once more, now that you are more mature.

try again----at no time did I write "..... all Sunday School teachers are jerks" "attempt to study the
bible..." ? I probably know it far better than do you

but just wanted to say that a lot of Messianic Jews came to Christ because of Isaiah 53

It's tempting for some to believe that "Messianic Jews" are Jews who became xtians but retained Jewish ritual.

But, the fact is, the majority of Messianic Jews were born xtian and adopted Jewish ritual as a way of hooking in Jews to their religion.

Messianic Judaism and groups such as "Jews for Jesus" are Protestant xtian groups and are funded by Protestant xtian churches.

Yes, I would have to say that "Protestant" groups are likely to fund Biblical missionary work. Christians do not want anyone to go to hell without hearing the Gospel message. However, many Jews I have met do not practice their Orthodoxy. What they have are family TRADITIONS. I have even talked to "Jews" who are atheists. And oddly, most Jews would much rather see such relatives remain atheists than to come to believe in GOD and become Christians. I'm sure that GOD expects more from individuals than the wearing of odd looking fedoras and dreadlocks by each ear; however, GOD will take anyone just as he is and make of them a new creature if they are willing to seek GOD beyond mere traditions.

your post is rude, vulgar and disgusting

I seem to have hit a nerve with you. Sorry, but my post is anything but rude, vulgar, and disgusting. It is honest and straight to the point. If the only thing that makes a Jew a Jew is his cultural traditions (with no regard for GOD) what real value of it is there? If, however, the fact is that all those traditions point to GOD and HIS salvation of fallen humanity, then it is of eternal value. Christians shouldn't be practicing "Christianity" to make other Christians happy ---- but to embrace GOD! And Jews should not be practicing Judaism to bring contentment to other Jews, but for the very same reason previously stated!

more rude, vulgar, filth. It takes a real peanut brain SCHMUCK to mock modes of dress. There is no "god" in christianity-----it is all tinsel, candycanes and jelly beans

So you mock the Savior but are upset over one's view of style?

 

[buttercup]

Isaiah 53 is not about the people of Israel, it is absolutely Messianic.

Thank you, Rabbi. I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education qualify you to make such a statement based on your reading on an English translation.

You can interpret it any way you like. I'll take my advice from someone grounded in Torah education with the actual ability to read and understand Hebrew, the language in which Torah was written.

That viewpoint is understandable. But here's the thing that many people don't get. One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

God WANTS us to seek and know Him... so in light of that, do you really think that the living God of the universe would make His word only understandable to a select few who have decades of education? Nope, that would leave out most of the world's population, and it would require everyone to put their trust in church leaders, rather than seeking God directly.

The bible says the opposite of that:

I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. But you have received the Holy Spirit,and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.​

​

1 John 2:26-27​

​

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.​

​

John 14:26​

And since you probably will reject those since they're New Testament scriptures, here's one from the Hebrew bible making the same point:

You gave your good Spirit to instruct them and did not withhold your manna from their mouth and gave them water for their thirst.​

​

Nehemiah 9:20​

 

[fncceo]

So you mock the Savior

Mock the savior? NEVER!

 

[fncceo]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

 

[fncceo]

1 John 2:26-27

John Grisham or John Steinbeck?

 

[irosie91]

I'm neither a Hebrew nor Greek scholar.

You don't read the language of your Bible, but you claim to know it?

And you may claim to know the language of your Bible, but you likely don't read it --- at least not take it at simple face value.

if you take a translation of any book, especially a scriptural writing "at face value", little nip---you is STOOOOPID. Theoretically I COULD learn Sanskrit----but if I decided to take the idea of an army of FLYING monkeys at "face
value" I would be a shallow minded idiot. .
Getting back to "face value" I have never met an "enthusiastic" christian willing to even attempt to understand the New Testament

Well, I will introduce you some. Yet I presume that you wont like it... Home

too late----I read your idiot propaganda YEARS AGO (pre-internet). I also read both the New Testament and the "old testament" ---in my teen years. FYI I have no "Jewish Education" as a child. I had MORE christian education as a child because a friendly neighbor (lutheran) took me to Sunday school many times to accompany her daughter.
But I was also an avid READER as a kid and came to understand that the sunday school teacher was a jerk

Not all Sunday School teachers are "jerks", and not all "Christians" are Fundamentalists nor born-again for that matter. You should attempt to study the Bible once more, now that you are more mature.

try again----at no time did I write "..... all Sunday School teachers are jerks" "attempt to study the
bible..." ? I probably know it far better than do you

but just wanted to say that a lot of Messianic Jews came to Christ because of Isaiah 53

It's tempting for some to believe that "Messianic Jews" are Jews who became xtians but retained Jewish ritual.

But, the fact is, the majority of Messianic Jews were born xtian and adopted Jewish ritual as a way of hooking in Jews to their religion.

Messianic Judaism and groups such as "Jews for Jesus" are Protestant xtian groups and are funded by Protestant xtian churches.

Yes, I would have to say that "Protestant" groups are likely to fund Biblical missionary work. Christians do not want anyone to go to hell without hearing the Gospel message. However, many Jews I have met do not practice their Orthodoxy. What they have are family TRADITIONS. I have even talked to "Jews" who are atheists. And oddly, most Jews would much rather see such relatives remain atheists than to come to believe in GOD and become Christians. I'm sure that GOD expects more from individuals than the wearing of odd looking fedoras and dreadlocks by each ear; however, GOD will take anyone just as he is and make of them a new creature if they are willing to seek GOD beyond mere traditions.

your post is rude, vulgar and disgusting

I seem to have hit a nerve with you. Sorry, but my post is anything but rude, vulgar, and disgusting. It is honest and straight to the point. If the only thing that makes a Jew a Jew is his cultural traditions (with no regard for GOD) what real value of it is there? If, however, the fact is that all those traditions point to GOD and HIS salvation of fallen humanity, then it is of eternal value. Christians shouldn't be practicing "Christianity" to make other Christians happy ---- but to embrace GOD! And Jews should not be practicing Judaism to bring contentment to other Jews, but for the very same reason previously stated!

more rude, vulgar, filth. It takes a real peanut brain SCHMUCK to mock modes of dress. There is no "god" in christianity-----it is all tinsel, candycanes and jelly beans

So you mock the Savior but are upset over one's view of style?

style? savior? The dress style of the person you call "jesus" included a fringed mantle and trimmed hair except at the cheekbone and the beard. It is described, HISTORICALLY---in detail

 

[LittleNipper]

Read it again! If Israel is represented by HE, then who is the OUR and the WE. If the book of Isaiah was written for the JEWS, then are the Jews not the WE and the OUR.

Isaiah 53

New International Version



1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[fncceo]

New International Version

Old, Original Version ...

 

[buttercup]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one shouldn't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

 

[irosie91]

1 John 2:26-27

John Grisham or John Steinbeck?

no one knows----my conclusion is that JOHN which was a very common name at that time was used as a pen name. Something like Ploni ben Ploni It was used for the writing of the BOOK OF REVULSIONS (sorta like no one wanted to claim it)

 

[fncceo]

God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated.

Most of the 'ordinary' people I know could read Hebrew since they were kids.

 

[irosie91]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

"highly educated"? one need not be "highly educated" to read hebrew-----my very own hubby was virtually an expert at age 4 -----but aramaic frustrates him. "Holy spirit" ? good-- so why try to quote a
translation of the bible?