Israel has the Capability to be More Selective

[Rocko]

Rocko - Israel's Mossad, Shin Bet, Kidon, Aman, etc have proven their capacity to make surgical strikes and take out the bad guys with minimum collateral damage. The fact that the IDF is now performing operations without that same care is the point I am making.

Israel has shown the capability of being more selective (that's what the links demonstrate).

Let me get this straight, you're making a claim about the IDF being more capable of limiting civilian casualties, but you have no specifics on the operations being carried out nor any description of IDF specific capabilities being repressed. Is it fair to say you haven't provided much evidence relating specifically to the IDF at all and you're maybe just going on a hunch?

I am making a claim about ISRAEL being more capable of limiting civilian casualties.

and the links prove it.

I'm sorry you say the links prove it, I couldn't disagree more. The readers will be the judge.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Another question I have is why do you think Israel wouldn't want to limit civilian casualties?

I would hope that they would want to limit civilian casualties.

I know that in the past that have conducted punitive raids in which avoiding civilian casualties hasn't been one of the highest priorities.

There have been times when Israel has shown tremendous regard for protecting innocent civilians and there have been times when they have been much more reckless.

I am advocating more care in the current situation.

 

[RandallFlagg]

"Battle lines are being drawn .... and nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
- Stephen Stills

The actions and tactics of the Arab terrorists who are hellbent on the destruction of Israel are indefensible.

But Israel is not without blame. They have the intelligence and military capability to be much more selective in their retaliations.

Mossad, Kidon, AMAN, Shin Bet have a long list of impressive successes in which targets were effectively (and surgically) removed. They have had someone set backs (such as the Lillehammer Affair), but they have saved many lives as well. (Some links will follow).

Israel can't claim that indiscriminate killing is the only way. We've seen much better out of the Israelis many, many times.

The Arabs have been guilty of far worse. But two wrongs don't make a right.

In case some of you have been living under a rock for the last 50 years or so ... here are some links to support the capabilities of the Israelis to selectively target bad guys.

The Mossad method - The Week

Mossad's hidden successes against Iran so far | National Review Online

Operations conducted by the Mossad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Special: Mossad took photos, Entebbe Operation was on its way - Israel News, Ynetnews

Intelligence During the Six-Day War (1967) | Jewish Virtual Library

The Shin Bet?s success | JPost | Israel News

...yet you defend them. Let me ask you a question Rambo. How many "Wars" have you fought in?


That's what I thought.

 

[nodoginnafight]

I'm sorry you say the links prove it, I couldn't disagree more. The readers will be the judge.

You are saying that the links do not prove that Israel has the capability of very selective strikes that minimize collateral damage?????

Then I don't think you read the links.

 

[nodoginnafight]

"Battle lines are being drawn .... and nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
- Stephen Stills

The actions and tactics of the Arab terrorists who are hellbent on the destruction of Israel are indefensible.

But Israel is not without blame. They have the intelligence and military capability to be much more selective in their retaliations.

Mossad, Kidon, AMAN, Shin Bet have a long list of impressive successes in which targets were effectively (and surgically) removed. They have had someone set backs (such as the Lillehammer Affair), but they have saved many lives as well. (Some links will follow).

Israel can't claim that indiscriminate killing is the only way. We've seen much better out of the Israelis many, many times.

The Arabs have been guilty of far worse. But two wrongs don't make a right.

In case some of you have been living under a rock for the last 50 years or so ... here are some links to support the capabilities of the Israelis to selectively target bad guys.

The Mossad method - The Week

Mossad's hidden successes against Iran so far | National Review Online

Operations conducted by the Mossad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Special: Mossad took photos, Entebbe Operation was on its way - Israel News, Ynetnews

Intelligence During the Six-Day War (1967) | Jewish Virtual Library

The Shin Bet?s success | JPost | Israel News

...yet you defend them. Let me ask you a question Rambo. How many "Wars" have you fought in?


That's what I thought.

I defend who?

One

 

[deltex1]

"Battle lines are being drawn .... and nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
- Stephen Stills

The actions and tactics of the Arab terrorists who are hellbent on the destruction of Israel are indefensible.

But Israel is not without blame. They have the intelligence and military capability to be much more selective in their retaliations.

Mossad, Kidon, AMAN, Shin Bet have a long list of impressive successes in which targets were effectively (and surgically) removed. They have had someone set backs (such as the Lillehammer Affair), but they have saved many lives as well. (Some links will follow).

Israel can't claim that indiscriminate killing is the only way. We've seen much better out of the Israelis many, many times.

The Arabs have been guilty of far worse. But two wrongs don't make a right.

In case some of you have been living under a rock for the last 50 years or so ... here are some links to support the capabilities of the Israelis to selectively target bad guys.

The Mossad method - The Week

Mossad's hidden successes against Iran so far | National Review Online

Operations conducted by the Mossad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Special: Mossad took photos, Entebbe Operation was on its way - Israel News, Ynetnews

Intelligence During the Six-Day War (1967) | Jewish Virtual Library

The Shin Bet?s success | JPost | Israel News

As has been said by many today...this is a war...Israel needs to win the war...being "selective" is their last priority.

 

[nodoginnafight]

"Battle lines are being drawn .... and nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
- Stephen Stills

The actions and tactics of the Arab terrorists who are hellbent on the destruction of Israel are indefensible.

But Israel is not without blame. They have the intelligence and military capability to be much more selective in their retaliations.

Mossad, Kidon, AMAN, Shin Bet have a long list of impressive successes in which targets were effectively (and surgically) removed. They have had someone set backs (such as the Lillehammer Affair), but they have saved many lives as well. (Some links will follow).

Israel can't claim that indiscriminate killing is the only way. We've seen much better out of the Israelis many, many times.

The Arabs have been guilty of far worse. But two wrongs don't make a right.

In case some of you have been living under a rock for the last 50 years or so ... here are some links to support the capabilities of the Israelis to selectively target bad guys.

The Mossad method - The Week

Mossad's hidden successes against Iran so far | National Review Online

Operations conducted by the Mossad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Special: Mossad took photos, Entebbe Operation was on its way - Israel News, Ynetnews

Intelligence During the Six-Day War (1967) | Jewish Virtual Library

The Shin Bet?s success | JPost | Israel News

As has been said by many today...this is a war...Israel needs to win the war...being "selective" is their last priority.

The engagements outlined in the links include many that were just as important as this one. I'm not shedding tears because the terrorists have put their civilians in harms way and exploit them in life and in death.

But the fact that Israel can do much better means they should do much better. IMHO.

 

[Rocko]

I'm sorry you say the links prove it, I couldn't disagree more. The readers will be the judge.

You are saying that the links do not prove that Israel has the capability of very selective strikes that minimize collateral damage?????

Then I don't think you read the links.

There's no need for me to read the links. You're saying the IDF can be more surgical in their strikes, but you have no links relatting to the IDF and the missions carried out. I find it very bizarre youre claiming to have proof.

 

[Indeependent]

I'm sorry you say the links prove it, I couldn't disagree more. The readers will be the judge.

You are saying that the links do not prove that Israel has the capability of very selective strikes that minimize collateral damage?????

Then I don't think you read the links.

There are more than 15,000 members of Hamas and you think Israel has the luxury of going through months of planning to only take out these 15K+.
And please stop reminding us of the tunnels!

Are you smoking yourself stupid?

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm sorry you say the links prove it, I couldn't disagree more. The readers will be the judge.

You are saying that the links do not prove that Israel has the capability of very selective strikes that minimize collateral damage?????

Then I don't think you read the links.

There's no need for me to read the links. You're saying the IDF can be more surgical in their strikes, but you have no links relatting to the IDF and the missions carried out. I find it very bizarre youre claiming to have proof.

Not sure why my posts keep getting deleted here.
There is no evidence whasoever for the claim Israel can limit civilian casualties. None.
But let's say they can. Do they do that at the expense of their own military mission? Who does that, sacrficing their own soldiers' lives for those of an enemy sworn to kill them? You dont. You save lives by ending the fighting as soon as possible. And you do not end the fighting by dragging it out. The links are irrelevant to the topic as the IDF is fighting a war, not a Mossad operation aimed at a couple of people.
btw, why is it Israel's responsibility to limit casualties? Why isn't Hamas pressed to limit casualties by not locating military facilities in civilian areas?

 

[Rocko]

You are saying that the links do not prove that Israel has the capability of very selective strikes that minimize collateral damage?????

Then I don't think you read the links.

There's no need for me to read the links. You're saying the IDF can be more surgical in their strikes, but you have no links relatting to the IDF and the missions carried out. I find it very bizarre youre claiming to have proof.

Not sure why my posts keep getting deleted here.
There is no evidence whasoever for the claim Israel can limit civilian casualties. None.
But let's say they can. Do they do that at the expense of their own military mission? Who does that, sacrficing their own soldiers' lives for those of an enemy sworn to kill them? You dont. You save lives by ending the fighting as soon as possible. And you do not end the fighting by dragging it out. The links are irrelevant to the topic as the IDF is fighting a war, not a Mossad operation aimed at a couple of people.
btw, why is it Israel's responsibility to limit casualties? Why isn't Hamas pressed to limit casualties by not locating military facilities in civilian areas?

I think there is a responsibility on both sides to limit civilian casualties. Should Israel do that at the expense of their military? Of course not. There isn't enough international pressure and condemnation of Hamas's tactics that are the real reasons for civilian deaths. I hope this fight ends soon, but I hope more for Hamas to be permanently defeated. That way there can some hope towards resolving this conflict once and for all.

 

[deltex1]

"Battle lines are being drawn .... and nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
- Stephen Stills

The actions and tactics of the Arab terrorists who are hellbent on the destruction of Israel are indefensible.

But Israel is not without blame. They have the intelligence and military capability to be much more selective in their retaliations.

Mossad, Kidon, AMAN, Shin Bet have a long list of impressive successes in which targets were effectively (and surgically) removed. They have had someone set backs (such as the Lillehammer Affair), but they have saved many lives as well. (Some links will follow).

Israel can't claim that indiscriminate killing is the only way. We've seen much better out of the Israelis many, many times.

The Arabs have been guilty of far worse. But two wrongs don't make a right.

In case some of you have been living under a rock for the last 50 years or so ... here are some links to support the capabilities of the Israelis to selectively target bad guys.

The Mossad method - The Week

Mossad's hidden successes against Iran so far | National Review Online

Operations conducted by the Mossad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Special: Mossad took photos, Entebbe Operation was on its way - Israel News, Ynetnews

Intelligence During the Six-Day War (1967) | Jewish Virtual Library

The Shin Bet?s success | JPost | Israel News

As has been said by many today...this is a war...Israel needs to win the war...being "selective" is their last priority.

The engagements outlined in the links include many that were just as important as this one. I'm not shedding tears because the terrorists have put their civilians in harms way and exploit them in life and in death.

But the fact that Israel can do much better means they should do much better. IMHO.

We thought we could do much better with our sensitive ROE in Iraq and Afghanistan. Did not work.

 

[nodoginnafight]

I'm sorry you say the links prove it, I couldn't disagree more. The readers will be the judge.

You are saying that the links do not prove that Israel has the capability of very selective strikes that minimize collateral damage?????

Then I don't think you read the links.

There's no need for me to read the links. You're saying the IDF can be more surgical in their strikes, but you have no links relatting to the IDF and the missions carried out. I find it very bizarre youre claiming to have proof.

Again Rocko - you are twisting what I said. And I pointed this out before. Did you just not read my post or are you just ignoring it because if refutes your point?

I never said the IDF can be more surgical. I said ISRAEL can be more surgical. Sop if you'd like to discuss what I posted, I'll be happy. But if YOU want to write a post, claim it is mine, and then argue with that ... then your not a poster who is worth wasting time on.

Israel CAN be more selective and they SHOULD be more selective. Are the terrorists doing that? Of Course not. But you don't protect yourself from terrorists by becoming terrorists yourself. I realize that regardless of what Israel does, their opponents will whine and cry that THEY are the victims here. There is no reason for Israel to give the world the impression that those claims are anything more than pure B.S. And they can do it.

Their IDF took out 100 terrorists in 90 minutes in a freaking airplane with minimal collateral damage (Link in OP). They can do better than they are right now.

 

[Rocko]

You are saying that the links do not prove that Israel has the capability of very selective strikes that minimize collateral damage?????

Then I don't think you read the links.

There's no need for me to read the links. You're saying the IDF can be more surgical in their strikes, but you have no links relatting to the IDF and the missions carried out. I find it very bizarre youre claiming to have proof.

Again Rocko - you are twisting what I said. And I pointed this out before. Did you just not read my post or are you just ignoring it because if refutes your point?

I never said the IDF can be more surgical. I said ISRAEL can be more surgical. Sop if you'd like to discuss what I posted, I'll be happy. But if YOU want to write a post, claim it is mine, and then argue with that ... then your not a poster who is worth wasting time on.

I'm glad you came back to clarify. So your OP has nothing to do with the operation being carried out in Gaza?

 

[jon_berzerk]

And what good did the warning do? Where could they go to get out of harms way?

Warning someone that you are going to kill them is not amazingly generous.

Killing the RIGHT PEOPLE is better.

I'm not crying over it - the Arabs have done worse.
But two wrongs don't make a right.

Israel doesn't get much credit internationally when they take the high road. There are folks who are going to criticize and hate them no matter what they do.

But Israel shouldn't use that as an excuse to stop trying.

Israel stopped trying to limit civilian casualties? When?

No - imho - I don't think they have stopped trying completely, I just know they can do a lot better.

at what price an increase in their own causalities

 

[nodoginnafight]

Israel stopped trying to limit civilian casualties? When?

No - imho - I don't think they have stopped trying completely, I just know they can do a lot better.

at what price an increase in their own causalities

That wasn't the case at Entebbe - I don't see why it should translate into increased casualties.

 

[Claudette]

You don't have to work too hard to find ways that Israel has contributed to the escalation of violence.

You also don't have to look too hard to find the source.

Yes, I can see how the unilateral humanitarian ceasefires have added to the aggression. They received warning.

Note "UNILATERAL". Israel ceases firing, Hamas continues.

Yup. If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead within two days.

If Hamas surrendered there would be peace.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Yes, I can see how the unilateral humanitarian ceasefires have added to the aggression. They received warning.

Note "UNILATERAL". Israel ceases firing, Hamas continues.

Yup. If Isreal surrendered tomorrow they would all be dead within two days.

If Hamas surrendered there would be peace.

I have agreed with that analysis since the very first time I heard it.

That doesn't mean that indiscriminate retaliations are helpful in the long run.

 

[Disir]

You don't have to work too hard to find ways that Israel has contributed to the escalation of violence.

You also don't have to look too hard to find the source.

Yes, I can see how the unilateral humanitarian ceasefires have added to the aggression. They received warning.

And what good did the warning do? Where could they go to get out of harms way?

Warning someone that you are going to kill them is not amazingly generous.

Killing the RIGHT PEOPLE is better.

I'm not crying over it - the Arabs have done worse.
But two wrongs don't make a right.

Israel doesn't get much credit internationally when they take the high road. There are folks who are going to criticize and hate them no matter what they do.

But Israel shouldn't use that as an excuse to stop trying.

Israel attempts to coordinate locations to do the least amount of harm as possible. Even your first link notes that the success rate is not quite all that and a bag of chips for the Mossad. Another link notes that you can have information but utilizing it is a different matter.

I always find it amazing that people can continue to demand Israel to alter the course and, usually, in a patronizing manner.

Three UNRWA schools have been found to have rockets hidden in them. Three.

Demilitarize Hamas like Hezbollah? Not the plan. Demilitarize down the road as Kerry and Obama would have it? Not a good plan.

I know

US and Qatar in $11bn Arms Deal for Patriots and Apaches

The message thus far is .............nobody wants Israel to do anything but they aren't going to do anything either. AND if Israel does do something then they should do better or more or nothing.

The result of the above means that not a damn thing is solved. In fact, it ensures that it will continue.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Israel attempts to coordinate locations to do the least amount of harm as possible...

Can you document that?

I documented how they OFTEN do that. But my complaint is that often they do not. So if you can document your claim and that it is true for EVERY engagement .... then I will be forced to reverse my position.