Israel's "Right to Exist"?

[georgephillip]

The fucking hypocritical obvious troll asswipes are the ones who put RIGHT TO EXIST in quotes and ask it AS if it were a question when it comes to Israel.

What "borders" does Israel have the "right to exist" within?

The borders of historic Israel.

"The Land of Israel"?

"Southern and eastern borders

"Only the 'Red Sea' (Exodus 23:31) and the Euphrates are mentioned to define the southern and eastern borders of the full land promised to the Israelites. The 'Red Sea' corresponding to Hebrew Yam Suf was understood in ancient times to be the Erythraean Sea, as reflected in the Septuagint translation.

"Although the English name 'Red Sea' is derived from this name ('Erythraean' derives from the Greek for red), the term denoted all the waters surrounding Arabia—including the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf, not merely the sea lying to the west of Arabia bearing this name in modern English.

"Thus the entire Arabian peninsula lies within the borders described."

Land of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SAYIT]

"Joining a great Semitic confederacy would mean, for Israel, putting an end to the Zionist chapter in its history and starting a new one - the chapter of Israel as a state integrated in its Region, playing a part in the Region's struggle for progress and unity."

When the US becomes a confed member under the UN Banki Moon leadership, then we will talk, of course. Avnery is a funny senile asshole, indeed.

Surely, you're not confusing the Zionist State with a continental superpower?
Which part of liberation scares you most, drivel?

"3 Economically, the potential advantages (of a Semitic Union) are enormous. For Israel, it would mean the end of Arab boycotts and the integration of its economy into the Region. For the Arabs it would mean the possibility of meaningful Regional planning, a Semitic common market which would harness the immense wealth of Arab oil to the cause of progress and industrialization of the Arab peoples, especially Egypt.

"4. A united Region, liberated from fear and foreign exploitation, could start at long last a rapid march toward the modernization of the whole Region, restoring it to the place it held both in ancient and Islamic times."

Pax Semitica by Uri Avnery

There seems to be much to admire about Avnery and more than a little at which to laugh.
He dreams of a Hebrew Nation as opposed to a Jewish Homeland ... basically a secular state bound by its language and confederated with the surrounding Arab states.
A bit of a dreamer, he also wrote in Poisoning Arafat: "For me, there was no surprise. From the very first day, I was convinced that Yasser Arafat had been poisoned by Ariel Sharon. I even wrote about it several times. It was a simple logical conclusion."
Yeah ... for a man with some loose screws.

 

[Billo_Really]

Un Gen Ass resolutions are not "international law," Princess. They are non-binding and represent the whining and sniveling and braying of that once august international body which has seen it's Islamic and Third World (read: anti-American and anti-Israel) membership swell to majority proportions. Ironically, it is the tyranny of that Islamic/Third World majority that has reduced the Gen Ass resolutions to, well, Gen Ass. In the US we have protections for minorities. Unfortunately, the UN has no such protections and, in fact, wallows in its inequities:
World Conference against Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They represent the concience of the world and the spirit of the UN principles.

Since Israel is a member nation, they are duty bound to honor its Charter.

 

[SAYIT]

personally, i think the demand of a "recognition of the right exist" is different than the actual "right to exist" itself, which was what my original question was about, and something no one seems able to explain, opting istead to repeat over and over again, sometimes in what seems like a histrionic frenzy, that israel has one, which i never denied nor affirmed.

i think israel's demand of of the palestinian negotiater's explicit recognition of israel's right to exist is a stalling tactic used to prevent negotion, as well as to interject some sort of israeli dominance into the process. christ, the palestinians are at the table and that is an implicit recognition of israel's right to exist. there is no need to formalise it. that can be done after the negotiations.

and also, and for what it is worth, the arab league, which includes palestine, has recognised israel in the offer of a peace initiative.

lol...i'm not yelling at you. i'm just frustrated. i agree with you that both sides need to enter any negotiations on an equal basis.

i guess this "right to exist" thing is just out there with no rule, rhyme, reason or condition.

I think this whole "right to exist" thing is a moot point. They exist already. They're there. Israel exists and there isn't a single country in the ME that can do anything about it. So why all this talk about their right to exist when they're already there?

True dat and the real point is not just why some need to continually post on the subject (as though it is a valid subject) but the right of those who actively work for Israel's demise. Those who claim Israel has a right to exist do so in response to the pinheads who whine that she doesn't.
Israel exists because it exists and the complaints of those who deny her right to exist has been answered ... nevertheless the complainants will persist.

 

[Billo_Really]

True dat and the real point is not just why some need to continually post on the subject (as though it is a valid subject) but the right of those who actively work for Israel's demise. Those who claim Israel has a right to exist do so in response to the pinheads who whine that she doesn't.
Israel exists because it exists and the complaints of those who deny her right to exist has been answered ... nevertheless the complainants will persist.

Hell must be freezing over because I think we've finally agreed on something.

 

[SAYIT]

UN Gen Ass resolutions are not "international law," Princess. They are non-binding and represent the whining and sniveling and braying of that once august international body which has seen it's Islamic and Third World (read: anti-American and anti-Israel) membership swell to majority proportions. Ironically, it is the tyranny of that Islamic/Third World majority that has reduced the Gen Ass resolutions to, well, Gen Ass. In the US we have protections for minorities. Unfortunately, the UN has no such protections and, in fact, wallows in its inequities:
World Conference against Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They represent the concience of the world and the spirit of the UN principles.

Since Israel is a member nation, they are duty bound to honor its Charter.

Camel crap. They represent the tyranny of a soulless majority to whom the rights of the minority are of no significance. Gen Ass resolutions neither represent nor comply with the UN Charter.
America's founding fathers, in their inifite wisdom, chose to establish checks and balances - both a Senate and a House of Representatives - and wrote our constitution in recognition of the tyranny of the majority.
The UN's founders used that template, I suspect, for the same reason.
Both have proven to have been very wise.

 

[Billo_Really]

Camel crap. They represent the tyranny of a soulless majority to whom the rights of the minority are of no significance. Gen Ass resolutions neither represent nor comply with the UN Charter.
America's founding fathers, in their inifite wisdom, chose to establish checks and balances - both a Senate and a House of Representatives - and wrote our constitution in recognition of the tyranny of the majority.
The UN's founders used that template, I suspect, for the same reason.
Both have proven to have been very wise.

Name one that doesn't.

 

[SAYIT]

True dat and the real point is not just why some need to continually post on the subject (as though it is a valid subject) but the right of those who actively work for Israel's demise. Those who claim Israel has a right to exist do so in response to the pinheads who whine that she doesn't.
Israel exists because it exists and the complaints of those who deny her right to exist has been answered ... nevertheless the complainants will persist.

Hell must be freezing over because I think we've finally agreed on something.

You will find my initial response (and a few others) to Seal's baiting say what you concluded in your post: Israel exists because the Israelis say it does and because most of the international community recognizes that existence.

 

[georgephillip]

When the US becomes a confed member under the UN Banki Moon leadership, then we will talk, of course. Avnery is a funny senile asshole, indeed.

Surely, you're not confusing the Zionist State with a continental superpower?
Which part of liberation scares you most, drivel?

"3 Economically, the potential advantages (of a Semitic Union) are enormous. For Israel, it would mean the end of Arab boycotts and the integration of its economy into the Region. For the Arabs it would mean the possibility of meaningful Regional planning, a Semitic common market which would harness the immense wealth of Arab oil to the cause of progress and industrialization of the Arab peoples, especially Egypt.

"4. A united Region, liberated from fear and foreign exploitation, could start at long last a rapid march toward the modernization of the whole Region, restoring it to the place it held both in ancient and Islamic times."

Pax Semitica by Uri Avnery

There seems to be much to admire about Avnery and more than a little at which to laugh.
He dreams of a Hebrew Nation as opposed to a Jewish Homeland ... basically a secular state bound by its language and confederated with the surrounding Arab states.
A bit of a dreamer, he also wrote in Poisoning Arafat: "For me, there was no surprise. From the very first day, I was convinced that Yasser Arafat had been poisoned by Ariel Sharon. I even wrote about it several times. It was a simple logical conclusion."
Yeah ... for a man with some loose screws.

Avnery provides a few nuts and bolts for his belief:

"Second, we know by now that several secret services possess poisons that leave no routinely detectable trace. These include the CIA, the Russian FSB (successor of the KGB), and the Mossad.

"Third, opportunities were plentiful. Arafat’s security arrangements were decidedly lax. He would embrace perfect strangers who presented themselves as sympathizers of the Palestinian cause and often seated them next to himself at meals.

"Fourth, there were plenty of people who aimed at killing him and had the means to do so. The most obvious one was our prime minister, Ariel Sharon. He had even talked about Arafat having 'no insurance policy' in 2004."

Poisoning Arafat » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

There were many prominent Jews who believed the creation of a Jewish State in 1948 was a big mistake. Avnery's notion of a Semitic common market that would marry Jewish ingenuity with the immense wealth of Arab oil seems like a big improvement over what Bibi and Barack have to offer.

 

[abu afak]

"The Right to exist" is a response to those who have continued to say it doesn't.
Nothing more.

Check a political map of the globe in 1900 and then in 2000.
There are probably 100 New countries.
Rights?

'Iraq' was 3 provinces of the Ottoman Empire, but clumped together and given by the British as Spoils to a Saudi Prince, Faisal. Forever ceding the 'Rights' of the Kurdish People for a State. (And Unlike Palestinians, a Larger and True people of separate Ethnicity, Language, Culture).

'Jordan', 77% of the British Mandate, the same. (given to a Saudi Hashemite Priince, Abdullah) Split off in contravention of the Brit and League of Nations Predecessor to the Jews for a larger state. No Jews allowed.

Lebanon was Gerrymandered out of the French Mandate to have a Christian Majority and Government.

Of course, only the Jewish State remains an issue due mainly to its hostile and bigoted neighbors. Ironic too because Israel, Unlike the above-mentioned neighbors ("Whim states") was voted on by the UN.
The Partition Vote created an Israel AND a Palestine.
Jews accepted.
Arabs rejected.
Thus Israel and No Palestine.

After the 1948 War, Arabs could have still Had a Palestine but Jordan ANNEXED the West Bank and Egypt Ruled Gaza. Arabs never accepted Israel, NOR a separate 'Palestine' until they lost the 1967 War. Then King Hussein 'gave' it to the 'Palestinians'.
Had Arabs won the 1967 war there probably wouldn't even be a Push for a Palestinian state, just the larger neighbors dividing up the spoils after bulldozing the Jews into the Sea.

So 'Right to Exist' remains a phrase in use re Israel because of unaccepting Neighbors.

I hope that helps because the vast majority here seem completely clueless on circumstance/history.
-

 

[SAYIT]

Surely, you're not confusing the Zionist State with a continental superpower?
Which part of liberation scares you most, drivel?

"3 Economically, the potential advantages (of a Semitic Union) are enormous. For Israel, it would mean the end of Arab boycotts and the integration of its economy into the Region. For the Arabs it would mean the possibility of meaningful Regional planning, a Semitic common market which would harness the immense wealth of Arab oil to the cause of progress and industrialization of the Arab peoples, especially Egypt.

"4. A united Region, liberated from fear and foreign exploitation, could start at long last a rapid march toward the modernization of the whole Region, restoring it to the place it held both in ancient and Islamic times."

Pax Semitica by Uri Avnery

There seems to be much to admire about Avnery and more than a little at which to laugh.
He dreams of a Hebrew Nation as opposed to a Jewish Homeland ... basically a secular state bound by its language and confederated with the surrounding Arab states.
A bit of a dreamer, he also wrote in Poisoning Arafat: "For me, there was no surprise. From the very first day, I was convinced that Yasser Arafat had been poisoned by Ariel Sharon. I even wrote about it several times. It was a simple logical conclusion."
Yeah ... for a man with some loose screws.

Avnery provides a few nuts and bolts for his belief:

"Second, we know by now that several secret services possess poisons that leave no routinely detectable trace. These include the CIA, the Russian FSB (successor of the KGB), and the Mossad.

"Third, opportunities were plentiful. Arafat’s security arrangements were decidedly lax. He would embrace perfect strangers who presented themselves as sympathizers of the Palestinian cause and often seated them next to himself at meals.

"Fourth, there were plenty of people who aimed at killing him and had the means to do so. The most obvious one was our prime minister, Ariel Sharon. He had even talked about Arafat having 'no insurance policy' in 2004."

Poisoning Arafat » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

There were many prominent Jews who believed the creation of a Jewish State in 1948 was a big mistake. Avnery's notion of a Semitic common market that would marry Jewish ingenuity with the immense wealth of Arab oil seems like a big improvement over what Bibi and Barack have to offer.

I see.
The existence of undectable poisons and the possibility - according to the author of that opinion piece - that Arafart's security was lax means there is only one possibility ... Israel did it.
Evidently your screws are as loose as Avnery's.
Case closed.

 

[georgephillip]

"The Right to exist" is a response to those who have continued to say it doesn't.
Nothing more.

Check a political map of the globe in 1900 and then in 2000.
There are probably 100 New countries.
Rights?

'Iraq' was 3 provinces of the Ottoman Empire, but clumped together and given by the British as Spoils to a Saudi Prince, Faisal. Forever ceding the 'Rights' of the Kurdish People for a State. (And Unlike Palestinians, a Larger and True people of separate Ethnicity, Language, Culture).

'Jordan', 77% of the British Mandate, the same. (given to a Saudi Hashemite Priince, Abdullah) Split off in contravention of the Brit and League of Nations Predecessor to the Jews for a larger state. No Jews allowed.

Lebanon was Gerrymandered out of the French Mandate to have a Christian Majority and Government.

Of course, only the Jewish State remains an issue due mainly to its hostile and bigoted neighbors. Ironic too because Israel, Unlike the above-mentioned neighbors ("Whim states") was voted on by the UN.
The Partition Vote created an Israel AND a Palestine.
Jews accepted.
Arabs rejected.
Thus Israel and No Palestine.

After the 1948 War, Arabs could have still Had a Palestine but Jordan ANNEXED the West Bank and Egypt Ruled Gaza. Arabs never accepted Israel, NOR a separate 'Palestine' until they lost the 1967 War. Then King Hussein 'gave' it to the 'Palestinians'.
Had Arabs won the 1967 war there probably wouldn't even be a Push for a Palestinian state, just the larger neighbors dividing up the spoils after bulldozing the Jews into the Sea.

So 'Right to Exist' remains a phrase in use re Israel because of unaccepting Neighbors.

I hope that helps because the vast majority here seem completely clueless on circumstance/history.
-

Saying Israel "has a right to exist" without specifying "Israel's" borders is pretty clueless.

Do you consider Area C a part of Israel?

If so, what's your argument against Theodor Meron, Israel's foreign ministry's legal adviser in 1967, explicit warning to his government against settling civilians in the newly occupied territories?

 

[P F Tinmore]

"The Right to exist" is a response to those who have continued to say it doesn't.
Nothing more.

Check a political map of the globe in 1900 and then in 2000.
There are probably 100 New countries.
Rights?

'Iraq' was 3 provinces of the Ottoman Empire, but clumped together and given by the British as Spoils to a Saudi Prince, Faisal. Forever ceding the 'Rights' of the Kurdish People for a State. (And Unlike Palestinians, a Larger and True people of separate Ethnicity, Language, Culture).

'Jordan', 77% of the British Mandate, the same. (given to a Saudi Hashemite Priince, Abdullah) Split off in contravention of the Brit and League of Nations Predecessor to the Jews for a larger state. No Jews allowed.

Lebanon was Gerrymandered out of the French Mandate to have a Christian Majority and Government.

Of course, only the Jewish State remains an issue due mainly to its hostile and bigoted neighbors. Ironic too because Israel, Unlike the above-mentioned neighbors ("Whim states") was voted on by the UN.
The Partition Vote created an Israel AND a Palestine.
Jews accepted.
Arabs rejected.
Thus Israel and No Palestine.

After the 1948 War, Arabs could have still Had a Palestine but Jordan ANNEXED the West Bank and Egypt Ruled Gaza. Arabs never accepted Israel, NOR a separate 'Palestine' until they lost the 1967 War. Then King Hussein 'gave' it to the 'Palestinians'.
Had Arabs won the 1967 war there probably wouldn't even be a Push for a Palestinian state, just the larger neighbors dividing up the spoils after bulldozing the Jews into the Sea.

So 'Right to Exist' remains a phrase in use re Israel because of unaccepting Neighbors.

I hope that helps because the vast majority here seem completely clueless on circumstance/history.
-

Saying Israel "has a right to exist" without specifying "Israel's" borders is pretty clueless.

Do you consider Area C a part of Israel?

If so, what's your argument against Theodor Meron, Israel's foreign ministry's legal adviser in 1967, explicit warning to his government against settling civilians in the newly occupied territories?

Good point. How can Israel have a right to exist when it legally exists no place.

 

[SAYIT]

"The Right to exist" is a response to those who have continued to say it doesn't.
Nothing more.

Check a political map of the globe in 1900 and then in 2000.
There are probably 100 New countries.
Rights?

'Iraq' was 3 provinces of the Ottoman Empire, but clumped together and given by the British as Spoils to a Saudi Prince, Faisal. Forever ceding the 'Rights' of the Kurdish People for a State. (And Unlike Palestinians, a Larger and True people of separate Ethnicity, Language, Culture).

'Jordan', 77% of the British Mandate, the same. (given to a Saudi Hashemite Priince, Abdullah) Split off in contravention of the Brit and League of Nations Predecessor to the Jews for a larger state. No Jews allowed.

Lebanon was Gerrymandered out of the French Mandate to have a Christian Majority and Government.

Of course, only the Jewish State remains an issue due mainly to its hostile and bigoted neighbors. Ironic too because Israel, Unlike the above-mentioned neighbors ("Whim states") was voted on by the UN.
The Partition Vote created an Israel AND a Palestine.
Jews accepted.
Arabs rejected.
Thus Israel and No Palestine.

After the 1948 War, Arabs could have still Had a Palestine but Jordan ANNEXED the West Bank and Egypt Ruled Gaza. Arabs never accepted Israel, NOR a separate 'Palestine' until they lost the 1967 War. Then King Hussein 'gave' it to the 'Palestinians'.
Had Arabs won the 1967 war there probably wouldn't even be a Push for a Palestinian state, just the larger neighbors dividing up the spoils after bulldozing the Jews into the Sea.

So 'Right to Exist' remains a phrase in use re Israel because of unaccepting Neighbors.

I hope that helps because the vast majority here seem completely clueless on circumstance/history.
-

Saying Israel "has a right to exist" without specifying "Israel's" borders is pretty clueless.

Do you consider Area C a part of Israel?

If so, what's your argument against Theodor Meron, Israel's foreign ministry's legal adviser in 1967, explicit warning to his government against settling civilians in the newly occupied territories?

Well, you may recall the Arabs followed up their 1967 6-day humiliation with a total rejection of peace: No recognition, No negotiation, No peace. Additionally both Egypt and Jordan declined to continue their administration of Gaza and the WB, respectively. Israel, at that moment, had every right to annex but not only did not, they refrained from any settlement building for 4 years, hoping against hope the Arabs would come to their senses.

 

[SAYIT]

"The Right to exist" is a response to those who have continued to say it doesn't.
Nothing more.

Check a political map of the globe in 1900 and then in 2000.
There are probably 100 New countries.
Rights?

'Iraq' was 3 provinces of the Ottoman Empire, but clumped together and given by the British as Spoils to a Saudi Prince, Faisal. Forever ceding the 'Rights' of the Kurdish People for a State. (And Unlike Palestinians, a Larger and True people of separate Ethnicity, Language, Culture).

'Jordan', 77% of the British Mandate, the same. (given to a Saudi Hashemite Priince, Abdullah) Split off in contravention of the Brit and League of Nations Predecessor to the Jews for a larger state. No Jews allowed.

Lebanon was Gerrymandered out of the French Mandate to have a Christian Majority and Government.

Of course, only the Jewish State remains an issue due mainly to its hostile and bigoted neighbors. Ironic too because Israel, Unlike the above-mentioned neighbors ("Whim states") was voted on by the UN.
The Partition Vote created an Israel AND a Palestine.
Jews accepted.
Arabs rejected.
Thus Israel and No Palestine.

After the 1948 War, Arabs could have still Had a Palestine but Jordan ANNEXED the West Bank and Egypt Ruled Gaza. Arabs never accepted Israel, NOR a separate 'Palestine' until they lost the 1967 War. Then King Hussein 'gave' it to the 'Palestinians'.
Had Arabs won the 1967 war there probably wouldn't even be a Push for a Palestinian state, just the larger neighbors dividing up the spoils after bulldozing the Jews into the Sea.

So 'Right to Exist' remains a phrase in use re Israel because of unaccepting Neighbors.

I hope that helps because the vast majority here seem completely clueless on circumstance/history.
-

Saying Israel "has a right to exist" without specifying "Israel's" borders is pretty clueless.

Do you consider Area C a part of Israel?

If so, what's your argument against Theodor Meron, Israel's foreign ministry's legal adviser in 1967, explicit warning to his government against settling civilians in the newly occupied territories?

Good point. How can Israel have a right to exist when it legally exists no place.

Sure it does and allow me to suggest that you and GP put on your camos and kafiyahs and try slipping across any of Israel's borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Saying Israel "has a right to exist" without specifying "Israel's" borders is pretty clueless.

Do you consider Area C a part of Israel?

If so, what's your argument against Theodor Meron, Israel's foreign ministry's legal adviser in 1967, explicit warning to his government against settling civilians in the newly occupied territories?

Good point. How can Israel have a right to exist when it legally exists no place.

Sure it does and allow me to suggest that you and GP put on your camos and kafiyahs and try slipping across any of Israel's borders.

Just because Israel has its fat ass parked somewhere with a gun does not mean there is a border there.

 

[SAYIT]

Good point. How can Israel have a right to exist when it legally exists no place.

Sure it does and allow me to suggest that you and GP put on your camos and kafiyahs and try slipping across any of Israel's borders.

Just because Israel has its fat ass parked somewhere with a gun does not mean there is a border there.

Does that mean you won't be wrapping your fat ass in a kafiyah and attempting to cross one of Israel's borders?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sure it does and allow me to suggest that you and GP put on your camos and kafiyahs and try slipping across any of Israel's borders.

Just because Israel has its fat ass parked somewhere with a gun does not mean there is a border there.

Does that mean you won't be wrapping your fat ass in a kafiyah and attempting to cross one of Israel's borders?

No problem. Israel has no borders.

 

[Hossfly]

Just because Israel has its fat ass parked somewhere with a gun does not mean there is a border there.

Does that mean you won't be wrapping your fat ass in a kafiyah and attempting to cross one of Israel's borders?

No problem. Israel has no borders.

Does Israel really need borders, Porky?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Does that mean you won't be wrapping your fat ass in a kafiyah and attempting to cross one of Israel's borders?

No problem. Israel has no borders.

Does Israel really need borders, Porky?

Owning land automatically produces borders. Israel has no borders because it has no land.