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Fair point. I concede that Israel is currently conducting a siege against Gaza. As is Egypt. The point I think I was trying to make is that Gaza cannot be UNDER a siege without TWO nations conducting a siege. It is entirely reasonable for Israel, in times of war, to place a siege on Gaza. (You really gotta ask yourself what's up with Egypt, though. *Noting that humanitarian aide entered Gaza through the Rafah crossing just today.)
I don't think it can fairly be called collective punishment though. Israel is at war (and rightly so!) against a foreign governing entity. Israel, as a result of war brought against her, is responding to that state of war. The state of war involves two governments. The state of war exists, and people are affected. It sucks, but it is. There is a necessary distinction here. Example: displacement of Arabs and Jews during the Israeli war of independence is a direct result of war and conflict between two warring factions. The expulsion of the Jewish people from all Arab countries was collective punishment on Jews for being Jews.
How is a blockade not control? But aside from that, it does effectively control those waters limiting fishing boats to 3 miles out since 2006.Israel blockades Gaza's territorial waters. It doesn't control them. And the airspace is sort of a moot point. (Not that it isn't important, but that the conversation is already so huge, I feel as though we can come back to this.)
We agree that Gaza needs water, and fuel, and electricity. My point is that Israel is not obligated to provide it. Or even to provide access to it, especially during wartime. We fundamentally seem to disagree on where to place the responsibility. Hamas, as governing body, has a responsibility to its citizens. A responsibility to prevent emptying the aquifer, to prevent sewage from contaminating the aquifer, to ensure water infrastructure is not dug up to make rockets, and to ensure that vital resources and humanitarian aide is not diverted from infrastructure projects to impotent jihadi projects.
And honestly, it does a disservice to the people of Gaza to claim that they are incapable of (eventual) self-determination and self-sufficiency. They are capable of it. They just need to turn the resources they have, the resources they are given, towards self-sufficiency instead of towards the slaughter of Jews.
Last I checked Egypt was not at war with Gaza. Any blockade of Gaza by Egypt is an act of war. Why would Egypt initiate an act of war against Gaza?
I haven’t included the people of Israel either.All sorts of things might have been. Yeah, many groups did things and it affected the outcome. Who knows how it might have turned out had any one group made different choices. Shrug. It's a big, complex problem. The one group you've left out of the responsibility pile here is the people of Gaza. They also bear a responsibility.
Their territorial waters, free trade, the ability represent themselves in the UN, the ability to negotiate agreements with other nations, autonomy and self rule.Well, let's talk specifically, if you don't mind, about the period between the disengagement from Gaza by Israel in September of 2005 and the rockets fired from Gaza, if memory serves, 12 days later. During that time period, what control - what opportunities - did Gaza not have? You say that Gaza did not have control. What did they not have control over?
My question shouldn't be a tough one. (With all due respect). What might have happened had Gaza chosen peace in 2005, and again in all the years from then until now? Given that one shift in parameters, what are some of the possibilities?
... Anger at what Hamas did is understandable as is the need to eliminate Hamas, but at what point does it go from a military operation to an act of vengeance, one directed at all of Gaza? I think that is a legitimate question.
The question was:.. .free trade, the ability represent themselves in the UN, the ability to negotiate agreements with other nations, autonomy and self rule.
I answered that question.The question was:
During that time period, what control - what opportunities - did Gaza not have? You say that Gaza did not have control. What did they not have control over?
Well, yes. They did not have the ability to present themselves as a sovereign nation. They didn't fulfill the obligations of a sovereign nation.
So what might they have done to rectify that situation? Did they not have the opportunity to move towards representation, negotiation, autonomy and self-rule?
Current stats on Gaza dead comes from Hamas. Cannot be verified by anyone. Will only happen after war is over, and the number of Hamas and Islamic Jihad dead and others will come out, and how many actual civilians were forced to become human shields to Hamas.I answered that question.
Why are you focusing on only that time period when what led up to now was not a singular event but series of actions and policies by Hamas and the Israeli government over decades?
Some of that is debatable given Israel’s own actions regarding a 2-state solution (not saying it was all on lsrael).
PM Netanyahu has never been an honest supporter of a 2-state solution, this is supported by both words and actions. He and his party has a combined total of 16 yrs in office, trending further and further right. Most notably, his 2nd term started in 2006. Gaza support for a 2-state solution was over 50% (interestingly double that of West Bank Palestinians). That seems like something that could have been leveraged along with a policy of strengthening the PA rather than undermining it and instituting a policy of isolating Gaza Palestinians from the West Bank Palestinians. It was, and is, clear that a 2-state solution was not going to happen beyond something that resembled semi-autonomous “homeland” enclaves subject to Israel’s political winds. (This is my opinion).
Given that…why should the Palestinians NOT attempt a direct appeal for member state status rather than funneling everything through Israel?
And that is an omelette that can unscrambled now.
42% of Gaza is under 14. 65% under 24. The majority of Gazans know no other life and were not responsible for decisions made by either side at the time. The economy is collapesd, you have no jobs, no income, no ability to leave, and a huge young population. Perfect recruiting ground for extremists.
Current stats: 1400 Israelis and 6,500 Palestinians have been killed, most are non-combatants. Entire families wiped out and bodies placed in mass graves.
I believe my question is still not answered. When does a military action become an act of vengeance?
"Given that…why should the Palestinians NOT attempt a direct appeal for member state status rather than funneling everything through Israel?"I answered that question.
Why are you focusing on only that time period when what led up to now was not a singular event but series of actions and policies by Hamas and the Israeli government over decades?
Some of that is debatable given Israel’s own actions regarding a 2-state solution (not saying it was all on lsrael).
PM Netanyahu has never been an honest supporter of a 2-state solution, this is supported by both words and actions. He and his party has a combined total of 16 yrs in office, trending further and further right. Most notably, his 2nd term started in 2006. Gaza support for a 2-state solution was over 50% (interestingly double that of West Bank Palestinians). That seems like something that could have been leveraged along with a policy of strengthening the PA rather than undermining it and instituting a policy of isolating Gaza Palestinians from the West Bank Palestinians. It was, and is, clear that a 2-state solution was not going to happen beyond something that resembled semi-autonomous “homeland” enclaves subject to Israel’s political winds. (This is my opinion).
Given that…why should the Palestinians NOT attempt a direct appeal for member state status rather than funneling everything through Israel?
And that is an omelette that can unscrambled now.
42% of Gaza is under 14. 65% under 24. The majority of Gazans know no other life and were not responsible for decisions made by either side at the time. The economy is collapesd, you have no jobs, no income, no ability to leave, and a huge young population. Perfect recruiting ground for extremists.
Current stats: 1400 Israelis and 6,500 Palestinians have been killed, most are non-combatants. Entire families wiped out and bodies placed in mass graves.
I believe my question is still not answered. When does a military action become an act of vengeance?
