Japan marks 76th anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombings

[MinTrut]

So, pray tell, are you an anarchist or a Buddhist.

Ha - well played!

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm anti-war crime, and anti-terrorism.

 

[Unkotare]

The Japanese government didn't want peace. The unofficial feelers were from a peace party that never wanted to go to war and was totally out of power. The Japanese proposals were a return to status quote ante December fifth 1941. No occupation of Japan, Japan to keep Korea, occupied China and Manchuria. No war crimes trials. Whatever disarmament there was to be would be under Japanese control with no international supervision. The existing Japanese government to stay in power. The Emperor to stay on the throne with his power intact. The Philippines to be a demilitarized zone with the Japanese enforcing that. What part of that do you find acceptable coming from a country already defeated and starving? No, the Japanese government wasn't at all interested in surrendering.

Article clipped from Chicago Tribune

Clipping found in Chicago Tribune published in Chicago, Illinois on 8/14/1965.

www.newspapers.com

 

[Mac-7]

Japan was desperate to surrender in the face of Allied might.

Some japanese leaders wanted peace while other powerful voices didnt

Some westerners make the mistake of projecting their western values on to wartime imperial japan

they cant conceive of a nation fighting to the last man, woman and child so they assume the japanese couldnt do it either

but thry underestimate the grip of Bushido on japanese culture at the time

 

[JoeB131]

My grandfather told me that the nuke was necessary as it saved many Western lives and the Japanese were never going to surrender.

That's nice, was your grandfather in the room when the Japanese government made the decision to surrender.

The reality is, the Japanese surrendered because the USSR had entered the war, and they didn't want half their country occupied by Soviet Troops raping their women like they were doing to Germany.

We have a bad habit of seeing the bombs as more serious than they were, probably because we lived with 40 years of fear of nuclear annihilation. For people at the time, the bomb was just another weapon.

 

[JoeB131]

Some japanese leaders wanted peace while other powerful voices didnt

Some westerners make the mistake of projecting their western values on to wartime imperial japan

they cant conceive of a nation fighting to the last man, woman and child so they assume the japanese couldnt do it either

but thry underestimate the grip of Bushido on japanese culture at the time

Except they didn't. They surrendered before one boot hit a Japanese beach.

Yes, they did fight very hard for the Islands we were stationing bombers on, because those bombers were devastating their homeland.

Again, the problem was that our side was more interested in post-war manuevering than just ending the war.

We insisted on unconditional surrender.
The Japanese wanted conditions.
the USSR entered the war, and looked like they were going to take Manchuria, Korea and maybe half of Japan, and suddenly we were totally fine with giving the Japanese conditions.

 

[Mac-7]

Except they didn't. They surrendered before one boot hit a Japanese beach.

Yes, because the atomic bombs shocked Hirohito to his senses and he demanded that japan surrender

 

[Mac-7]

the problem was that our side was more interested in post-war manuevering than just ending the war.

Yes thats true

Can you imagine two japans after the war?

One communist and one free the way it is in korea today?

i can and its not a pretty picture

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, because the atomic bombs shocked Hirohito to his senses and he demanded that japan surrender

NO, they surrendered because the Russians entered the war.

Had nothing to do with the bombs, we were doing more damage to Japan with conventional bombings.

(Kind of sucks when you make your houses out of paper and balsawood, and someone firebombs you.)

Now, AFTER the war, we all became terrified of nukes, and engaged in a lot of self-flagellation about them. But at the time.

Meh. Just another weapon.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes thats true

Can you imagine two japans after the war?

One communist and one free the way it is in korea today?

i can and its not a pretty picture

Yet, that was exactly the plan. The plan agreed to at Potsdam was to partition Japan like they had partitioned Germany. The Russians were supposed to get Hokkaido and the northern half of Honshu. The US was only supposed to get the southern half of Honshu and Tokyo would be partitioned like Berlin was.

So what happened? Well, the Soviets weren't playing nice in Korea and Manchuria, so they weren't invited, and didn't have the naval power to support an occpation, anyway.

The Nationalist Chinese had their own problems and didn't have the money to support an occupation. The British did send some troops, but they were in a big hurry to get out of there.

So the task of rebuilding Japan fell entirely to the US.

 

[Mac-7]

NO, they surrendered because the Russians entered the war.

You just told us that the atomic bombs were horrible and inhuman

but now you say the Japanese leaders were ok with that but couldnt stand the thought of losing control of manchuria to the soviets so they had to surrender?

thats totally nuts and beyond reason

 

[JoeB131]

You just told us that the atomic bombs were horrible and inhuman

but now you say the Japanese leaders were ok with that but couldnt stand the thought of losing control of manchuria to the soviets so they had to surrender?

thats totally nuts and beyond reason

I'd try to explain it to you but you still wouldn't understand.

THE WHOLE FUCKING WAR WAS HORRIBLE AND INHUMAN!!!

70 Million people died in World War II, and the Japanese were among the worst offenders. (I really have a lot of respect and admiration for Japanese culture, but what they did during the war was beyond the pale.)

So to recap- Japan knew they were losing. They had been putting out feelers for peace with the Swiss and the then Neutral Soviets. They were hoping for a peace agreement where maybe they got to keep the Emperor and didn't have to give up Korea, Taiwan or Manchuria. Their fleet was destroyed, and the few planes they had left had been expended as Kamikazes.

WHEN the USSR entered the war, it was a whole new ball game. They were now fighting on a whole new front they were ill-prepared for, as the Kwantung Army in Manchuria had largely been stripped of equipment and supplies. They heard stories about what the Soviets were doing to their zone in Germany, which involved a lot of rape, and were kind of horrified by it.

The US also was horrified by the notion of letting the Soviets occupy half of Japan, even though they had previously agreed to it when they thought they would need more Soviet help. So just like that, they all forgot that Hirohito was a class-A war criminal, which he most certainly was.

 

[Mac-7]

Yet, that was exactly the plan. The plan agreed to at Potsdam was to partition Japan like they had partitioned Germany. The Russians were supposed to get Hokkaido and the northern half of Honshu. The US was only supposed to get the southern half of Honshu and Tokyo would be partitioned like Berlin was.

View attachment 523381

So what happened? Well, the Soviets weren't playing nice in Korea and Manchuria, so they weren't invited, and didn't have the naval power to support an occpation, anyway.

The Nationalist Chinese had their own problems and didn't have the money to support an occupation. The British did send some troops, but they were in a big hurry to get out of there.

So the task of rebuilding Japan fell entirely to the US.

If you search long enough you can usually fond a crackpot or two that support your position

in this case you found a leftist south korean professor

besides I have already agreed that in spite of potsdam, US policy by Aug 1945 was to keep the russians out of japan

which was a throughly sensible idea

 

[Mac-7]

The US also was horrified by the notion of letting the Soviets occupy half of Japan, even though they had previously agreed to it when they thought they would need more Soviet help

See post #152

 

[MinTrut]

Article clipped from Chicago Tribune

Clipping found in Chicago Tribune published in Chicago, Illinois on 8/14/1965.

www.newspapers.com

Yup.

Ike knew it, and this is just one reason he opposed the bombs.

 

[MinTrut]

Some japanese leaders wanted peace while other powerful voices didnt

Nothing makes what we did okay - nothing.

And Japan was on its knees and desperate to surrender.

But this is incidental.

Some westerners make the mistake of projecting their western values on to wartime imperial japan

See above.

they cant conceive of a nation fighting to the last man, woman and child so they assume the japanese couldnt do it either

See above; what you're presenting - and this is the hundredth time this convenient myth has been promoted in this thread so people don't have to face these horrendous crimes - is a dehumanizing fabrication to avoid guilt.

but thry underestimate the grip of Bushido on japanese culture at the time

See above; Japan was on its knees.

 

[MinTrut]

Except they didn't. They surrendered before one boot hit a Japanese beach.

Yes, they did fight very hard for the Islands we were stationing bombers on, because those bombers were devastating their homeland.

Again, the problem was that our side was more interested in post-war manuevering than just ending the war.

We insisted on unconditional surrender.
The Japanese wanted conditions.
the USSR entered the war, and looked like they were going to take Manchuria, Korea and maybe half of Japan, and suddenly we were totally fine with giving the Japanese conditions.

You make some good points here and in your previous post.

I don't entirely agree, but some very good points.

 

[MinTrut]

Yes, because the atomic bombs shocked Hirohito to his senses and he demanded that japan surrender

No - convenient myth to avoid guilt.

The Japanese were desperate to surrender, but we wanted to scare the Hell out of Russia, and regarded the Japanese as subhuman, so we incinerated them.

Grotesque and unforgivable.

 

[Mac-7]

Nothing makes what we did okay - nothing.

Wrong

the alternative was joint occupation of japan by the US and Russia.

that would be a true crime against humanity

 

[Mac-7]

The Japanese were desperate to surrender,

Wrong

the japanese leaders were not of one mind and the majority wanted to continue fighting to the death

 

[Unkotare]

.....r

but thry underestimate the grip of Bushido on japanese culture at the time

You watch too many cartoons.