John Kerry: Unfit for Service

[daveman]

Credibility of the veterans and their testimony

Since the first day of the WSI event and for more than thirty years since, individuals and organizations have sought to discredit or at least minimize the painful revelations brought forth at that event. Critics have claimed that participants were frauds; that they were told to not cooperate with later investigators; that their testimonies were inaccurate or just plain fabricated.[18] To date, no records of fraudulent participants or fraudulent testimony have been produced.[10] Winter Soldier Investigation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

prove the above wrong

I did.

Credibility of the veterans and their testimony

Since the first day of the WSI event and for more than thirty years since, individuals and organizations have sought to discredit or at least minimize the painful revelations brought forth at that event. Critics have claimed that participants were frauds; that they were told to not cooperate with later investigators; that their testimonies were inaccurate or just plain fabricated.[18] To date, no records of fraudulent participants or fraudulent testimony have been produced.[10] Winter Soldier Investigation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

prove the above wrong

I already have, stupid motherfucker.

WinterSoldier.com - Army CID Investigations of VVAW War Crimes Allegations

The following are Army WSI witnesses investigated by the CID:
Note: Cases 1, 11, 19, 32 and 40 cover allegations made outside WSI by witnesses who also made WSI statements.

1. Beitzel, John, 21, Sgt. (E-5), 4/21, 11th Brigade, Americal Division (January 1969 to January 1970).
Allegation: 1) Indiscriminate firing upon unarmed Vietnamese, 2) Torture and maltreatment of prisoners/detainees, 3) Mutilation of dead bodies.
Investigation summary: Complainants Beitzel and Joseph Brenman refused to provide specific information to support their allegations, which were made in a venue other than WSI, but are basically the same. Joe Bangert (USMC) and Jeffrey Dubrow (USN) accompanied Beitzel and Brenman at the subject venue.

Result: Investigation terminated; insufficient evidence.

John Beitzel / Joseph Brenman CID Investigation Report

2. Bernath, Fred, 26, 1st Lt., 101st MP Co., 101st Airborne Division (December 1968 to October 1969).
Allegation: 1) Electrical torture of prisoners/detainees, 2) Gassing of civilians.
Investigation summary: Complainant submitted a sworn statement supporting his WSI claims, but was unable to identify any of the individuals involved or the date of the incident. He did name a possible witness who subsequently submitted a sworn statement denying any knowledge of the events alleged by Bernath.

Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.

Fred Bernath CID Investigation Report

3. Bunge, Sam, 1st Lt., "B" Co., 3/187, 101st Airborne Division (July 1968 to June 1969).
Allegation: 1) Attempted murder of Vietnamese male, 2) Desecration of graves, 3) Gassing of Vietnamese civilians.
Investigation summary: Complainant repeated WSI claims but refused to sign a written statement. He provided names of possible witnesses but did not name any of those allegedly involved, including his former commanding officer. Interviews with former members of Bunge's unit and his former commanding officers revealed no evidence that supported the allegations.

Result: Investigation completed; supplemental investigative efforts completed; unfounded.

Sam Bunge CID Investigation Report

4. Butts, Dennis, 24, SP/4 (E-4), HHQ Co., 2/12, 25th Infantry Division and "E" Co., 4/39, 9th Infantry Division (September 1966 to September 1967).
Allegation: 1) Indiscriminate killing and wounding of Vietnamese civilians, 2) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to cooperate without immunity on advice of VVAW counsel.

Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.

Dennis Butts CID Investigation Report

5. Byrne, Kevin, 21, Sgt. (E-5), 42nd Scout Dog, 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (November 1968 to November 1969).
Allegation: 1) Attempted murder of an NVA officer, 2) Failure to render medical treatment, 3) Indiscriminate use of fire power, 4) Destruction of private property.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to answer questions or provide further information for fear of "causing trouble for the peons instead of the generals."

Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.

Kevin Byrne CID Investigation Report

6. Caldwell, Dennis, 24, CWO-2, "A" Trp., 3/17, Air Cav., 1st Aviation Brigade (October 1968 to October 1969).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese, 2) Indiscriminate use of fire power, 3) Indiscriminate destruction of villages, 4) Gassing (tear gas) of civilians and livestock, 5) Aggravated assault on a prisoner.
Investigation summary: Complainant refused to answer any questions or provide further information.

Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.

Dennis Caldwell CID Investigation Report

7. Chiles, David, 24, SP/4 (E-4), 3/4, 25th Infantry Division (January 1968 to December 1968).
Allegation: 1) Mutilation of enemy corpse, 2) Indiscriminate killing of two Vietnamese children and an elderly Vietnamese man.
Investigation summary: Counsel present at interview. Complainant declined to provide any substantive information, saying he would testify only before a Congressional Committee.

Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.

David Chiles CID Investigation Report

8. Craig, Douglas, 22, SP/4, "D" Co., 2nd Bn., 8th Brigade, 1st Air Cav. Division (December 1968 to August 1969).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified Vietnamese.
Investigation summary: Complainant stated that he had no direct information that civilians were killed and no direct knowledge of the alleged event. He further stated that he had misgivings about testifying at Detroit, as he could not substantiate the allegations.

Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.

Douglas Craig CID Investigation Report

9. Craig, Larry, 29, SP/4, Public Information Office, 25th Infantry Division (1966 to 1967).
Allegation: 1) Murder of unidentified prisoner, 2) Desecration of a grave.
Investigation summary: Complainant backtracked on his WSI testimony and was unable to provide specific information or identify any U.S or Vietnamese personnel.

Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.

Larry Craig CID Investigation Report

10. Donner, Donald, 24, SP/4 (E-4), 20th Brigade, 86th Combat Engineers (August 1967 to July 1968).
Allegation: 1) Murder of a Vietnamese male, 2) Wounding of a 14-year-old Vietnamese girl, 3) Dereliction in the performance of duty, 4) Indiscriminate killing of livestock, 5) Failure to bury enemy dead.
Investigation summary: Complainant characterized the alleged incidents as accidental, misrepresented by him at WSI, or known to him only by hearsay.

Result: Investigation completed; insufficient evidence.

Donald Donner CID Investigation Report​

That's the first ten. There are 38 more. "Insufficient evidence". "Unfounded".

Three more cases: "Unable to identify complainant.".

You lose. Grow the hell up and admit it.

 

[daveman]

Seriously? This was old back in 04...I seriously hate you.

Well, aren't you just a little pussy?

no its more like its been 8 years and i am still tired of this issue. Give it a rest already......

I wouldn't have said a word if Obama hadn't made the monumentally stupid decision to consider Hanoi John for SecDef.

You don't like it?

Tough shit, kid.

 

[daveman]

Bullshit. The investigations proved the testimony to be total-often intentional- bullshit.

...

wingnut web sites and myths aside...To date, no records of fraudulent participants or fraudulent testimony have been produced.

Wrong, boy. I posted links to the CID investigations themselves.

You lose. Again.

 

[daveman]

wingnut web sites and myths aside...To date, no records of fraudulent participants or fraudulent testimony have been produced.

What part of " Pitkin publicly recanted his participation in WSI in 2004, saying in a signed affidavit that he had been pressured to present false testimony about war crimes in Vietnam by other VVAW members, including John Kerry." are you unable to understand? Or do you just love to lie like your hero?

please, one guy...sort of like one guy said shit about Kerry in the Nam


fuck off turd boy

Only assholes question the military combat service of men who volunterred

Kerry criticized the service of every single American combat troop in Vietnam, and later, Iraq.

Why do you suck his ass for it, but claim no one else is allowed?

Oh, yes, that's right -- you're a lying sack of shit, that's why.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

What part of " Pitkin publicly recanted his participation in WSI in 2004, saying in a signed affidavit that he had been pressured to present false testimony about war crimes in Vietnam by other VVAW members, including John Kerry." are you unable to understand? Or do you just love to lie like your hero?

please, one guy...sort of like one guy said shit about Kerry in the Nam


fuck off turd boy

Only assholes question the military combat service of men who volunterred

If so that makes kerry one very serious asshole because he not only questioned but defamed the service of the average US serviceman in Vietnam with deliberate and malicious lies about ficticious "atrocities".

kerry's lies called my honor onto question and makes his own open to question. And his record sucks.

does your VA social worker know you are on the internet again?

 

[Annie]

Kerry as SecDef would be a slap in the face to all the military, but most especially to Vietnam veterans, whom Kerry knowingly lied about in testimony to Congress.

WinterSoldier.com - Newly Discovered Army Reports Discredit "Winter Soldier" Claims

From March 13-16, 2008, members of the antiwar group Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) will gather in Washington, DC to "testify" against the US military at a protest event called Winter Soldier: Iraq & Afghanistan. The name "Winter Soldier" is taken from the infamous 1971 event at which members of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) related gruesome stories of crimes they claimed to have participated in or witnessed. The VVAW insisted that rape, torture and murder were standard practices for the US military in Vietnam. Organizers of the new IVAW tribunal, which is supported by several former VVAW leaders, say the 1971 conference was where "a courageous group of veterans exposed the criminal nature of the Vietnam War." In reality, it was part of a sophisticated, vicious propaganda effort designed to poison public opinion against the US military. Newly discovered records now reveal what happened when Army investigators asked VVAW activists for evidence of the hundreds of crimes they claimed to have seen.

In our book, To Set The Record Straight: How Swift Boat Veterans, POWs and the New Media Defeated John Kerry, Tim Ziegler and I trace the course of the anti-US war crimes propaganda campaign, which began in Europe with KGB-sponsored events that were organized before the first US ground troops ever arrived in Vietnam. In 1969, leaders of those conferences helped American radicals form the "Citizens Commission of Inquiry into US War Crimes in Indochina" (CCI), which set up a series of so-called investigations where US military actions in Vietnam were compared to those of Nazi Germany during World War II. The CCI soon joined forces with the VVAW, another leftist group created with financing and assistance from members of the Communist Party, USA, the Socialist Workers Party and the communist front Veterans for Peace.

The VVAW's Winter Soldier Investigation (WSI) took place in Detroit from Jan. 31 through Feb. 2, 1971. Financed primarily by pro-Hanoi actress Jane Fonda, the event's honorary national coordinator, WSI was the largest war crimes tribunal held in the US during the Vietnam War. Several of the discussion panel moderators were radical leaders who had previously met with top North Vietnamese and Vietcong representatives in Hanoi and Paris. Also present were leftist psychiatrists, psychoanalysts and clinicians, who pressured the witnesses to help end the war by publicly confessing their "crimes." Former VVAW member Steve Pitkin later recalled how the civilians went from man to man, "bombarding them; laying on the guilt." Pitkin signed an affidavit in 2004 charging that John Kerry and other VVAW leaders had coerced him into making a false statement.

WSI was the source of the allegations John Kerry presented to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations in April 1971, at a hearing set up by antiwar Senators to showcase the VVAW's atrocity tales. The highly publicized appearance launched Kerry's political career and helped to create a lasting image of Vietnam veterans as drugged-out murderers too damaged to function in normal society. Justice was served in 2004 when a political movement led by some of the veterans John Kerry had defamed sank his presidential bid.

Investigating the winter soldiers

In 2005, I visited the National Archives at College Park, Maryland with Vietnam veteran and researcher John Boyle. Sifting through the limited material available, we found summary data for the WSI allegations the Army had investigated. The Army's Criminal Investigative Division (CID) had opened cases for 43 WSI "witnesses" whose claims, if true, would qualify as crimes. An additional 25 Army WSI participants had criticized the military in general terms, without sufficient substance to warrant any investigation.

The 43 WSI CID cases were eventually resolved as follows: 25 WSI participants refused to cooperate, 13 provided information but failed to support the allegations, and five could not be located. No criminal charges were filed as a result of any of the investigations. The individual CID case files, which had been available to the public beginning in 1994, were withdrawn from public access around 2003, when the National Archives realized that the documents should have been embargoed until the personal information they contained could be removed, or "redacted," as required by the Privacy Act of 1974.

Early in 2007, Boyle learned that a historian had copied the entire collection of CID war crime investigation summaries at the National Archives, including those involving the VVAW, while they were still publicly available. The historian permitted Boyle to photocopy these documents, which we have now posted at WinterSoldier.com:

Army CID Investigations of VVAW War Crimes Allegations

​

Some of you may object by saying that the military would whitewash any wrongdoing.

Not so.

The military had a very good reason to be thorough: Public relations. They would not want to give the impression that atrocities were officially sanctioned.

The Communist stooges on the left, however, had national attention, and used it. Of course, they had to resort to lies, but they have no compunction against lying.

The Winter Soldiers lied. Kerry lied.

This is undeniable.

Indeed, which is Obama's point, so suck it up. Elections have consequences. Obama won. Kerry to Defense; The brilliant Susan Wright to State, a winner for the seat of Hillary. Holder to stay in place, a winning team. Let them have free reign. If they succeed, Dems are in forever. If not, have a plan ready.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The whole US Military Command Structure refused to go after a small man like John Kerry in the 1970s. Seriously. It was a conspiracy.

thank gawd we have wingnuts here that will do what the US Military refused to do.

or...

welcome to Wingnut Nation where the Good Ship Wingnut sets sail in the USMB Bathtub

yep.mention Kerry and all the misfits and criminals start spouting about their 'honorable' service.

 

[Ava]

Are there really that many Vietnam Vets left on active duty to care at this point?

I think Kerry wouldn't be a good choice, necessarily.

There is some antagonism between him and the armed forces.

But anyone who doesn't like it is more than welcome to resign their commissions.

Elections have consequences, and the GOP fucked up by not listening to sensible people that told them Romney was a horrible pick.

Shitting on your own military when you're CiC has consequences, too.

Obama is insanely out of touch with the military he purports to command.

Right! He is not the man for the job unless another motive is really in place here.

"John Kerry is a disgusting liar who smeared his military brothers and accused them of war crimes."

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-combat-veteran-so-was-benedict-arnold-video/

 

[daveman]

please, one guy...sort of like one guy said shit about Kerry in the Nam


fuck off turd boy

Only assholes question the military combat service of men who volunterred

If so that makes kerry one very serious asshole because he not only questioned but defamed the service of the average US serviceman in Vietnam with deliberate and malicious lies about ficticious "atrocities".

kerry's lies called my honor onto question and makes his own open to question. And his record sucks.

does your VA social worker know you are on the internet again?

You didn't admit to your hypocrisy.

Gasp. I mean, yawn.

 

[daveman]

Kerry as SecDef would be a slap in the face to all the military, but most especially to Vietnam veterans, whom Kerry knowingly lied about in testimony to Congress.

WinterSoldier.com - Newly Discovered Army Reports Discredit "Winter Soldier" Claims

From March 13-16, 2008, members of the antiwar group Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) will gather in Washington, DC to "testify" against the US military at a protest event called Winter Soldier: Iraq & Afghanistan. The name "Winter Soldier" is taken from the infamous 1971 event at which members of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) related gruesome stories of crimes they claimed to have participated in or witnessed. The VVAW insisted that rape, torture and murder were standard practices for the US military in Vietnam. Organizers of the new IVAW tribunal, which is supported by several former VVAW leaders, say the 1971 conference was where "a courageous group of veterans exposed the criminal nature of the Vietnam War." In reality, it was part of a sophisticated, vicious propaganda effort designed to poison public opinion against the US military. Newly discovered records now reveal what happened when Army investigators asked VVAW activists for evidence of the hundreds of crimes they claimed to have seen.

In our book, To Set The Record Straight: How Swift Boat Veterans, POWs and the New Media Defeated John Kerry, Tim Ziegler and I trace the course of the anti-US war crimes propaganda campaign, which began in Europe with KGB-sponsored events that were organized before the first US ground troops ever arrived in Vietnam. In 1969, leaders of those conferences helped American radicals form the "Citizens Commission of Inquiry into US War Crimes in Indochina" (CCI), which set up a series of so-called investigations where US military actions in Vietnam were compared to those of Nazi Germany during World War II. The CCI soon joined forces with the VVAW, another leftist group created with financing and assistance from members of the Communist Party, USA, the Socialist Workers Party and the communist front Veterans for Peace.

The VVAW's Winter Soldier Investigation (WSI) took place in Detroit from Jan. 31 through Feb. 2, 1971. Financed primarily by pro-Hanoi actress Jane Fonda, the event's honorary national coordinator, WSI was the largest war crimes tribunal held in the US during the Vietnam War. Several of the discussion panel moderators were radical leaders who had previously met with top North Vietnamese and Vietcong representatives in Hanoi and Paris. Also present were leftist psychiatrists, psychoanalysts and clinicians, who pressured the witnesses to help end the war by publicly confessing their "crimes." Former VVAW member Steve Pitkin later recalled how the civilians went from man to man, "bombarding them; laying on the guilt." Pitkin signed an affidavit in 2004 charging that John Kerry and other VVAW leaders had coerced him into making a false statement.

WSI was the source of the allegations John Kerry presented to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations in April 1971, at a hearing set up by antiwar Senators to showcase the VVAW's atrocity tales. The highly publicized appearance launched Kerry's political career and helped to create a lasting image of Vietnam veterans as drugged-out murderers too damaged to function in normal society. Justice was served in 2004 when a political movement led by some of the veterans John Kerry had defamed sank his presidential bid.

Investigating the winter soldiers

In 2005, I visited the National Archives at College Park, Maryland with Vietnam veteran and researcher John Boyle. Sifting through the limited material available, we found summary data for the WSI allegations the Army had investigated. The Army's Criminal Investigative Division (CID) had opened cases for 43 WSI "witnesses" whose claims, if true, would qualify as crimes. An additional 25 Army WSI participants had criticized the military in general terms, without sufficient substance to warrant any investigation.

The 43 WSI CID cases were eventually resolved as follows: 25 WSI participants refused to cooperate, 13 provided information but failed to support the allegations, and five could not be located. No criminal charges were filed as a result of any of the investigations. The individual CID case files, which had been available to the public beginning in 1994, were withdrawn from public access around 2003, when the National Archives realized that the documents should have been embargoed until the personal information they contained could be removed, or "redacted," as required by the Privacy Act of 1974.

Early in 2007, Boyle learned that a historian had copied the entire collection of CID war crime investigation summaries at the National Archives, including those involving the VVAW, while they were still publicly available. The historian permitted Boyle to photocopy these documents, which we have now posted at WinterSoldier.com:

Army CID Investigations of VVAW War Crimes Allegations

​

Some of you may object by saying that the military would whitewash any wrongdoing.

Not so.

The military had a very good reason to be thorough: Public relations. They would not want to give the impression that atrocities were officially sanctioned.

The Communist stooges on the left, however, had national attention, and used it. Of course, they had to resort to lies, but they have no compunction against lying.

The Winter Soldiers lied. Kerry lied.

This is undeniable.

Indeed, which is Obama's point, so suck it up. Elections have consequences. Obama won. Kerry to Defense; The brilliant Susan Wright to State, a winner for the seat of Hillary. Holder to stay in place, a winning team. Let them have free reign. If they succeed, Dems are in forever. If not, have a plan ready.

This only proves that Obama isn't serious about national security.

Not like we needed more proof...

 

[daveman]

The whole US Military Command Structure refused to go after a small man like John Kerry in the 1970s. Seriously. It was a conspiracy.

thank gawd we have wingnuts here that will do what the US Military refused to do.

or...

welcome to Wingnut Nation where the Good Ship Wingnut sets sail in the USMB Bathtub

yep.mention Kerry and all the misfits and criminals start spouting about their 'honorable' service.

You're a little mixed up. You meant to say "Kerry lies about those who have served honorably and calls them misfits and criminals."

Of course, that's only if you didn't want to be a lying sack of shit.

Do you want to be a lying sack of shit?

 

[daveman]

Are there really that many Vietnam Vets left on active duty to care at this point?

I think Kerry wouldn't be a good choice, necessarily.

There is some antagonism between him and the armed forces.

But anyone who doesn't like it is more than welcome to resign their commissions.

Elections have consequences, and the GOP fucked up by not listening to sensible people that told them Romney was a horrible pick.

Shitting on your own military when you're CiC has consequences, too.

Obama is insanely out of touch with the military he purports to command.

Right! He is not the man for the job unless another motive is really in place here.

"John Kerry is a disgusting liar who smeared his military brothers and accused them of war crimes."

Hooray!… Fox’s Ralph Peters: “I Don’t Want To Hear ‘John Kerry’s A Combat Veteran’ — So Was Benedict Arnold” (Video) | The Gateway Pundit

The other motive is, of course, weakening the military. Like all leftists, he hates the fact that the US is the world's only superpower. Reducing retention and recruitment, demoralizing the troops who remain, a SecDef who as Senator voted against every major weapons system, and being "more flexible" with a Russian who longs for the USSR.

 

[Annie]

This has likely been posted, but seems perhaps conservatives should sit back and watch the machinations?

Obama may swift boat John Kerry’s hopes of being secretary of state | Full Comment | National Post

Kelly McParland: Obama may swift boat John Kerry’s hopes of being secretary of state

Kelly McParland | Nov 14, 2012 2:25 PM ET | Last Updated: Nov 14, 2012 5:33 PM ET
More from Kelly McParland | @KellyMcParland
AP Photo/Mary Altaffer
Not all the gossip in Washington is about David Petraeus’s sex life. Some of it is also about whether President Barack Obama will spoil John Kerry’s dream of becoming secretary of state.

There is, of course, already a secretary of state, named Hillary Clinton. But Mrs. Clinton has said she plans to step down (and may start running for president, though she says she wants to rest first). Sen. Kerry would like to take her place, and has a strong claim on the job. He has vast experience in foreign affairs, is chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and has been unflinchingly loyal and supportive of Mr. Obama.

The other day the Washington Post reported that Sen. Kerry was indeed under consideration for a job in the new administration… but as defense secretary. Mr. Kerry hasn’t said anything publicly, but word is he doesn’t want to be defense secretary, he wants state. State carries prestige and lots of travel; defense is likely to get stuck overseeing inevitable downsizing at the Pentagon. This has roused considerable indignation among Democrat thinkers, who are divided into two camps: one that says he should get the job he wants; the other that says it would be nuts for the president to let him have either job.

Mr. Kerry was the Democratic party presidential nominee in 2004. He’s also the one credited with handing the keynote speech at the 2004 convention to Mr. Obama, who was still a little known Illinois state senator at the time. Blogger and broadcast David Shuster wrote it would be “incredibly disloyal to Kerry and remarkably tone deaf politically” for Obama to send him to defense after all Kerry has done for the president.

John Kerry is chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He doesn’t even serve on the Armed Services Committee. Oh, and his military service was more than 40 years ago. Adding insult to injury in the story about Kerry being considered for secretary of defense is the report that President Obama wants U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice to take the secretary of state job that Kerry wants.

Though Rice is qualified, says Shuster, she was also lead spokesperson on the Benghazi attack, and her nomination hearing would be certain to sink into “a nasty and brutal confrontation over the administration’s false Benghazi narrative that she helped to perpetuate.”....

 

[Harry Dresden]

sweet, the swiftboat liars are still out there.

No, Jillian, you don't get to come in here and claim these are all lies.

Prove it.

My wife's uncle was a Captain in the Navy and was the officer above Kerry!s commanding officer. He knows what went on I Vietnam with Kerry and said that the swift boaters were full of shit. This is a man so institutionalised from the military that he would not know how to lie, and if you knew him, you would believe him. This man voted for Bysh in 2000, but Kerry in 2004.

yea....well my Cousins Wifes Uncle was the guy who......come on Nukes.....anybody can say anything here....

 

[9thIDdoc]

kerry is not only unfit to serve, he is unfit to be a US citizen.

 

[Lumpy 1]

It's a toss up on who's more of an insult to the military.. Obama or Kerry..

 

[NoNukes]

No, Jillian, you don't get to come in here and claim these are all lies.

Prove it.

My wife's uncle was a Captain in the Navy and was the officer above Kerry!s commanding officer. He knows what went on I Vietnam with Kerry and said that the swift boaters were full of shit. This is a man so institutionalised from the military that he would not know how to lie, and if you knew him, you would believe him. This man voted for Bysh in 2000, but Kerry in 2004.

Ummm...that's not proof.

Really.

Did you think it was?

It certainly is to me. I probably know the truth from someone who was there and knows what happened. Can you say the same? You only have speculation on what you want to be the truth.

 

[NoNukes]

careful, posting with Davey can be dangerous to your mental health. He's a pathetic man who attacks decorated military veterans

He has Medal Envy.

I came out with a nice ribbon rack, one I'm proud of.

Never threw them over a fence, either.

Meanwhile, how many medals did you earn?

Oh, sorry -- didn't mean to highlight the fact that you wouldn't or couldn't serve in uniform. My bad.

On the Internet, anyone could have won medals, not that I doubt that you did, but it is futile to challange anyone as to whether they were awarded any medals. This is why I have never told you about my Congressional Medal of Honor.

 

[NoNukes]

No, Jillian, you don't get to come in here and claim these are all lies.

Prove it.

My wife's uncle was a Captain in the Navy and was the officer above Kerry!s commanding officer. He knows what went on I Vietnam with Kerry and said that the swift boaters were full of shit. This is a man so institutionalised from the military that he would not know how to lie, and if you knew him, you would believe him. This man voted for Bysh in 2000, but Kerry in 2004.

yea....well my Cousins Wifes Uncle was the guy who......come on Nukes.....anybody can say anything here....

Yes, I am very aware of this, but, since I know that my story is true, this does not matter to me.

 

[daveman]

My wife's uncle was a Captain in the Navy and was the officer above Kerry!s commanding officer. He knows what went on I Vietnam with Kerry and said that the swift boaters were full of shit. This is a man so institutionalised from the military that he would not know how to lie, and if you knew him, you would believe him. This man voted for Bysh in 2000, but Kerry in 2004.

Ummm...that's not proof.

Really.

Did you think it was?

It certainly is to me. I probably know the truth from someone who was there and knows what happened. Can you say the same? You only have speculation on what you want to be the truth.

Was he there at the Winter Soldier testimony? Was he there when Kerry illegally met with people from Hanoi in Paris?

In case you haven't noticed, those are the two issues I've been discussing -- not Kerry's service during his abbreviated second tour in Vietnam. So what your brother's uncle's cousin's wife's sister's dog saw is utterly immaterial.

Understand now?